News Article: Lawless Calling Out 5 Key Players Of The "Atlanta Association"

[surixon]

I can tell you what I was saying, it was the exact same thing. I said the Jets need go for a mini-rebuild OR take the next step into playoffs immediately. Trying a half measure of "rebuilding" on the fly wasn't going to work. That's far from the first time I've thrown the Chi, Bos, LA, comparisons out there.



I know you have agreed with me in the past but it's worth pointing out again. THIS WAS NOT AN EXPANSION TEAM. We had plenty of assets as well when this team was acquired. There's was lots to be made with. This myth that the team was completely empty was just that...a myth.

But fine, look at where LA finished in those 3 years if you want to look at. 18th, 20th, 20th. Now you Atlanta/Winnipeg. 25th, 22nd, 18th in the past 3 years. Kinda similar.

There was several buzzwords Lombardi liked to throw out when he took over the team. One was black hole, finishing 9th to 12th. Said it was the worst place to finish said teams often get "stuck" in neutral in the black hole with no hope of getting better. It's why he referred to it as the black hole, as when you start in their you just keep getting sucked in further and further. Another was the illusion of youth. Kings seemed young since some key players were young, but the lack of a system or youth throughout the lineup was a huge problem. You could argue the Jets were/are in the same situation.

He said that this are the key reasons the team needed to rebuild for a couple of years before trying to compete. He stressed how impossible it was for teams to "rebuild" on the fly. It was literally not possible. You had to actually decided whether you wanted to rebuild or whether wanted to try to compete. He recognized that way back in 2006-07. Chevy came in and wasn't able to recognize the same thing. He's trying to do something that very few (any?) teams are able to do. Take a team with no history of winning and no stars, don't rebuild, and make that team a winner while trying to stay competitive. Because it worked for all those years in Atlanta so well.

I still don't see how you have come to the conclusion that he's trying to do both or not rebuild. For me I think its abundently clear that the Jets are rebuilding. Just because Chevy isn't out throwing the rebuild word around in the public doesn't mean that's not happening behind closed doors.

What moves constitute not rebuilding?

He's spent a lot of effort at the draft and we had a number of picks last year.

If he trades Buff coming up for a few young assets are you still going to be singing the same tune.

Or did he have to scorch the earth from the get go or say some fancy buzz words to the media to get you onboard.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I still don't see how you have come to the conclusion that he's trying to do both or not rebuild. For me I think its abundently clear that the Jets are rebuilding. Just because Chevy isn't out throwing the rebuild word around in the public doesn't mean that's not happening behind closed doors.

What moves constitute not rebuilding?

He's spent a lot of effort at the draft and we had a number of picks last year.

If he trades Buff coming up for a few young assets are you still going to be singing the same tune.

Or did he have to scorch the earth from the get go or say some fancy buzz words to the media to get you onboard.

You don't rebuild while placing 17th-23rd in the league. That's a team that should be headed up or down. Spinning your wheels there is not a rebuild.

 

[Guerzy]

I know you have agreed with me in the past but it's worth pointing out again. THIS WAS NOT AN EXPANSION TEAM. We had plenty of assets as well when this team was acquired. There's was lots to be made with. This myth that the team was completely empty was just that...a myth.

I agree with you, we certainly didn't acquire an expansion team, but let's be honest here, to your first points in bold there, outside of some core roster players, there was NOTHING in the tank here in terms of assets (prospects, draft picks, roster players) that could have been moved to drastically improve and enhance the state of the 2011 roster we acquired.

Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties, the most notable players that could be a "core" headed forward. I can understand here why Chevy wanted to assess and observe what he had in these guys. He had to find out as he knew their contracts were set to expire in due time and it had to be decided whether to go long-term with them or not. He obviously chose to.

Who should we have traded in order to improve the team outside of that core? Antropov? Stapleton? Oduya? Thorburn? Slater? Hainsey?

Perhaps we could have traded intriguing prospects like Kulda? Machacek? Maxwell? Cormier? Klingberg?

None of that is getting us jack **** in a trade.

Trade draft picks? why? how? the system is already bone dry. TNSE model was to build through the draft, use our own prospects as our main source of replenishing the NHL roster. Trading picks was not an ideal option.

Explain to me how this team had assets at their disposal to go out and improve the team, or how we had "lots to be made with". I am interested in hearing because I do not see any.

But fine, look at where LA finished in those 3 years if you want to look at. 18th, 20th, 20th. Now you Atlanta/Winnipeg. 25th, 22nd, 18th in the past 3 years. Kinda similar.

There was several buzzwords Lombardi liked to throw out when he took over the team. One was black hole, finishing 9th to 12th. Said it was the worst place to finish said teams often get "stuck" in neutral in the black hole with no hope of getting better. It's why he referred to it as the black hole, as when you start in their you just keep getting sucked in further and further. Another was the illusion of youth. Kings seemed young since some key players were young, but the lack of a system or youth throughout the lineup was a huge problem. You could argue the Jets were/are in the same situation.

He said that this are the key reasons the team needed to rebuild for a couple of years before trying to compete. He stressed how impossible it was for teams to "rebuild" on the fly. It was literally not possible. You had to actually decided whether you wanted to rebuild or whether wanted to try to compete. He recognized that way back in 2006-07. Chevy came in and wasn't able to recognize the same thing. He's trying to do something that very few (any?) teams are able to do. Take a team with no history of winning and no stars, don't rebuild, and make that team a winner while trying to stay competitive. Because it worked for all those years in Atlanta so well.

You can slice it any way you want, you can put all the icing on the cake you please to make it look pretty, but the fact of the matter is you cannot realistically cherry pick, pick and choose when LA/Lombardi decided to strictly rebuild and which assets they would use, then say "see, look, it took 3 years", because the fact is they stocked plenty of assets while sucking in those years pre-Lombardi. They sucked and collected assets for a good 5-7 years, not 3 or some quick fly, strict, magical, textbook rebuild.

Impossible to cherry pick a date in which their rebuild began. They stocked assets and went through nearly a decade of crap results.

 

[Jet]

The interesting thing about this whole discussion is, when you look back at the last Stanley Cup winners over the past 10 years, there have only been 2 repeat winners -- The Blackhawks, and The Red Wings.

Both teams took very different paths to win. The other 6 winners also did very different things to win the Cup. Some tanked. Some just steadily built. Some got lucky.

I do not think there is one right way to win the Cup. I think you have to look what you have. I think you need to draft and develop the best you can with the picks you have. Having great draft position for a number of years is no guarantee you are going to win the cup: See Caps, Blues (so far), Wild, Oilers. Conversely, having poor draft position is no guarantee you will be mediocre or won't win the cup: See Red Wings, Hurricanes, Devils.

I don't think you can paint every organization with the same brush. They all have different markets with different challenges, different personnel doing the drafting and developing. That is where you win. All you can do is do the right things in the areas that matter most. Spend money on your scouting and development systems. Find the best players through the draft and pro scouting and then get the right people in to train them, coach them and develop them, in hockey and in mind.

That is how you win, and I truly believe that has been TN's focus since day one. I also believe that this team will be a perennially strong team once the fruits of that labor ripen.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

I agree with you, we certainly didn't acquire an expansion team, but let's be honest here, to your first points in bold there, outside of some core roster players, there was NOTHING in the tank here in terms of assets (prospects, draft picks, roster players) that could have been moved to drastically improve and enhance the state of the 2011 roster we acquired.

What prospect could we have dealt for help? what draft picks? and why trade draft picks when our main resource to team building from the day we purchased the team was going to be our system? can't trade one asset yet build another; that's impossible. What spare roster players with value could we have traded in order to improve things?

Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties, the most notable players that could be a "core" headed forward. I can understand here why Chevy wanted to assess and observe what he had in these guys. He had to find out as he knew their contracts were set to expire in due time and it had to be decided whether to go long-term with them or not. He obviously chose to.

Who should we have traded in order to improve the team outside of that core? Antropov? Stapleton? Oduya? Thorburn? Slater? Hainsey?

Perhaps we could have traded intriguing prospects like Kulda? Machacek? Maxwell? Cormier? Klingberg?

None of that is getting us jack **** in a trade.

Trade draft picks? why? how? the system is already bone dry. TNSE model was to build through the draft, use our own prospects as our main source of replenishing the NHL roster. Trading picks was not an ideal option.

Explain to me how this team had assets at their disposal to go out and improve the team, or how we had "lots to be made with". I am interested in hearing because I do not see any.

I've never said that was the right way to go. If they felt they could improve the team, then the option was to rebuild the roster. The ONLY way they could fail was by inaction, precisely what they did. Not the team not only lacks direction, it has burned valuable prime years off Ladd, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Wheeler, etc.

Other GM's don't need 2-3 years to "evaluate" what he has. I understand not being a Mike Kelly and coming and cutting your starting QB without even interviewing him in the first two weeks on the job, but there comes a point you need to have some vision. Chevy is just going through the motions right now, not rocking the boat, not trying to build a future team, not trying to get better now. Unless you/he thought Trouba + Scheifele and having Ladd, Wheeler, Byfuglien, etc build on career high seasons was going to result in 8 more points in the standings. Or that not giving Scheifele any competition and handing him a spot was best for the longterm, not just the cheapest and laziest.

You can slice it any way you want, you can put all the icing on the cake you please to make it look pretty, but the fact of the matter is you cannot realistically cherry pick, pick and choose when LA/Lombardi decided to strictly rebuild and which assets they would use, then say "see, look, it took 3 years", because the fact is they stocked plenty of assets while sucking in those years pre-Lombardi. They sucked and collected assets for a good 7 years, not 3 or some quick fly, strict, magical, textbook rebuild.

Impossible to cherry pick a date in which their rebuild began. They stocked assets and went through nearly a decade of crap results.

You expand it, I prove how it was similar again. So you dismiss it. Huh.

You are COMPLETELY kidding yourself if Dave Taylor was at any point "collecting assets". They regularly were trading away young players year after year to stay competitive in the Dave Taylor era. Taylor was told to stay competitive (while somehow rebuilding the system at the same time) during his time in LA. While is why guys who were promising prospects (Grebeshkov, Tambellini) were dealt for veterans all the time (Sopel, Parrish). They were not trying to suck, 2005-06 they were in first place in January 06. In 02-03, 03-04 they were hit hard by injuries to the entire top line (similarly built team to WPG is now, could you imagine Winnipeg losing Ladd, Little, Wheeler for the whole season).

This team has yet to make ANY kind of choice. We are spinning out tires. Tell me, when will they become competitive if spinning the tires will suddenly yield results? 2016? 2025? 2572? How are we getting better. Sure we have some draft picks. Guess what 29 other teams have added a bunch of great young prospects as well. You really think continuing as a mediocre team is going to work? Are we going to attract many free agents who say, yeah you know what I want to go to Winnipeg to play for that awesomely mediocre team? Are we going to be able to retain guys like Ladd when they hit UFA? Why in the hell would he choose to remain with an organization who has shown absolutely no will to get better and is wasting his best years.

Tell me, what's the plan here then if Chevy has this awesome plan.

 

[Guerzy]

I've never said that was the right way to go. If they felt they could improve the team, then the option was to rebuild the roster. The ONLY way they could fail was by inaction, precisely what they did. Not the team not only lacks direction, it has burned valuable prime years off Ladd, Byfuglien, Enstrom, Wheeler, etc.

Other GM's don't need 2-3 years to "evaluate" what he has. I understand not being a Mike Kelly and coming and cutting your starting QB without even interviewing him in the first two weeks on the job, but there comes a point you need to have some vision. Chevy is just going through the motions right now, not rocking the boat, not trying to build a future team, not trying to get better now. Unless you/he thought Trouba + Scheifele and having Ladd, Wheeler, Byfuglien, etc build on career high seasons was going to result in 8 more points in the standings. Or that not giving Scheifele any competition and handing him a spot was best for the longterm, not just the cheapest and laziest.



You expand it, I prove how it was similar again. So you dismiss it. Huh.

You are COMPLETELY kidding yourself if Dave Taylor was at any point "collecting assets". They regularly were trading away young players year after year to stay competitive in the Dave Taylor era. Taylor was told to stay competitive (while somehow rebuilding the system at the same time) during his time in LA. While is why guys who were promising prospects (Grebeshkov, Tambellini) were dealt for veterans all the time (Sopel, Parrish). They were not trying to suck, 2005-06 they were in first place in January 06. In 02-03, 03-04 they were hit hard by injuries to the entire top line (similarly built team to WPG is now, could you imagine Winnipeg losing Ladd, Little, Wheeler for the whole season).

This team has yet to make ANY kind of choice. We are spinning out tires. Tell me, when will they become competitive if spinning the tires will suddenly yield results? 2016? 2025? 2572? How are we getting better. Sure we have some draft picks. Guess what 29 other teams have added a bunch of great young prospects as well. You really think continuing as a mediocre team is going to work? Are we going to attract many free agents who say, yeah you know what I want to go to Winnipeg to play for that awesomely mediocre team? Are we going to be able to retain guys like Ladd when they hit UFA? Why in the hell would he choose to remain with an organization who has shown absolutely no will to get better and is wasting his best years.

Tell me, what's the plan here then if Chevy has this awesome plan.

I agree with you Holden in that Chevy will soon (like this season, today, this offseason type of "soon") have to begin making a bold change here and/or there to help advance this roster. I have said repeatedly that in soon time we can renegotiate with Ladd, but there is a risk here he may not want to. His 5 year contract will be over before we know it, we can renegotiate with him next year before we go into the final year of his deal, I sure hope he is interested in what we have to say because our on-ice results are lacking.

I didn't once say, or intend to say, Dave Taylor collected assets as a "whole" in a manner that he was "stocking them". I said or intended that he got assets along the way which later on turned into assets Lombardi used in order to obtain Simmonds, Johnson, then Carter and Richards.

Lombardi used assets that Dave Taylor had put into the team/system. So to say Lombardi did a rebuild in just 3 years isn't exactly realistic, when in truth he used assets obtained over the course of 5-7 years in which LA sucked and a few years even before his time as GM.

 

[pcanuck]

"Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties "

yes, Guerzy no argument from me. These were good young prospects you don't want to trade the second you get the ATL team. You want to see what you have. IMO, Ladd was a stud in Y1 and Y2 and Bogo showed promise.

So at the same time, when these player's values increased more, Why didn't Chevy pull the trigger on a trade and get younger? Why not rebuild? Or when these players seemed destined to be inconsistent, Why sign almost all of them to long term franchise deals? Notice the one guy he didn't sign is racking up the pts in Russia ... coincidence?

We're on our way to no where. We're have not, nor does anyone at TNSE have a plan to trade away assets for future picks. In fact, we generally trade draft picks to add assets (Seto, Frolik, Fehr...).

So we're destined to remain the same inconsistent mediocre team we are. We simply add AHL/ NHL draft picks from time to time and use waiver wire pickups to likely limit the youth movement. I mean why promote a Dman like Sol from the AHL when you can use the waiver wire. I'm sure all the AHLers must have loved that move from Chevy. Why add Telegin or O'Dell when you can get Halischuk or keep the faith with Wright.

That's not the organizational culture I thought TNSE wanted. But obviously I was wrong. TNSE must be planning a big push in 2021 when the Jets channel no longer exists, Wpg needs a new arena and we're losing the fan base. Maybe Seattle will come a calling? or heck, maybe Phoenix again (once they lose their team in 2-3 years).

 

[surixon]

You don't rebuild while placing 17th-23rd in the league. That's a team that should be headed up or down. Spinning your wheels there is not a rebuild.

So then tell me how are the Jets better from a talent perspective had they done what you wanted and traded a guy like Buff right when we got the team and say drafted fourth vs drafted 9th in 2012. We are no worse off. There is not one player drafted fourth through ninth that I would trade for Trouba. Hell the only player I'd be tempted to take ahead of him is Galchenyuk.

You don't need lottory picks to acquire talent. I don't believe the Jets will be any worse off if they choose to deal Buff now when his value is higher vs if they has sold him off and bottomed out for a couple of years in a controlled rebuild like you want them to. The Jets are doing a controlled rebuild just not in the way you want them to.

 

[Darth Handsome*]

You don't need lottory picks to acquire talent.

Exactly. What you do need is scouting & development. I'd rather do this while staying relatively competitive instead of doing this while losing every game. Either way, it's going to take time & finishing last doesn't guarantee a faster return.

 

[Jet]

"Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties "

yes, Guerzy no argument from me. These were good young prospects you don't want to trade the second you get the ATL team. You want to see what you have. IMO, Ladd was a stud in Y1 and Y2 and Bogo showed promise.

So at the same time, when these player's values increased more, Why didn't Chevy pull the trigger on a trade and get younger? Why not rebuild? Or when these players seemed destined to be inconsistent, Why sign almost all of them to long term franchise deals? Notice the one guy he didn't sign is racking up the pts in Russia ... coincidence?

We're on our way to no where. We're have not, nor does anyone at TNSE have a plan to trade away assets for future picks. In fact, we generally trade draft picks to add assets (Seto, Frolik, Fehr...).

So we're destined to remain the same inconsistent mediocre team we are. We simply add AHL/ NHL draft picks from time to time and use waiver wire pickups to likely limit the youth movement. I mean why promote a Dman like Sol from the AHL when you can use the waiver wire. I'm sure all the AHLers must have loved that move from Chevy. Why add Telegin or O'Dell when you can get Halischuk or keep the faith with Wright.

That's not the organizational culture I thought TNSE wanted. But obviously I was wrong. TNSE must be planning a big push in 2021 when the Jets channel no longer exists, Wpg needs a new arena and we're losing the fan base. Maybe Seattle will come a calling? or heck, maybe Phoenix again (once they lose their team in 2-3 years).

What you are missing is that by signing these players to long term deals, he has secured their rights, thereby making them tradeable assets. He has actually increased the value of the likes of Kane and Little, because as the cap goes up, their cap hits to production ratio will be very attractive. Signing these guys to long term deals does not mean we have to keep all of them.

I won't even address the last paragraph because it's utter nonsense.

 

[Grind]

"Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties "

yes, Guerzy no argument from me. These were good young prospects you don't want to trade the second you get the ATL team. You want to see what you have. IMO, Ladd was a stud in Y1 and Y2 and Bogo showed promise.

So at the same time, when these player's values increased more, Why didn't Chevy pull the trigger on a trade and get younger? Why not rebuild? Or when these players seemed destined to be inconsistent, Why sign almost all of them to long term franchise deals? Notice the one guy he didn't sign is racking up the pts in Russia ... coincidence?

We're on our way to no where. We're have not, nor does anyone at TNSE have a plan to trade away assets for future picks. In fact, we generally trade draft picks to add assets (Seto, Frolik, Fehr...).

So we're destined to remain the same inconsistent mediocre team we are. We simply add AHL/ NHL draft picks from time to time and use waiver wire pickups to likely limit the youth movement. I mean why promote a Dman like Sol from the AHL when you can use the waiver wire. I'm sure all the AHLers must have loved that move from Chevy. Why add Telegin or O'Dell when you can get Halischuk or keep the faith with Wright.

That's not the organizational culture I thought TNSE wanted. But obviously I was wrong. TNSE must be planning a big push in 2021 when the Jets channel no longer exists, Wpg needs a new arena and we're losing the fan base. Maybe Seattle will come a calling? or heck, maybe Phoenix again (once they lose their team in 2-3 years).

because 90% of defenders in the AHL are better then Sol, and 100% of waiver eligible Dmen are also better? Have you ever seen him play? He's brutal. Bad example pcanuk, very very bad example.

your melodramatic negativity is a little grating.

That being said, realistically, I don't see how so many people are so supportive of chevy so far.

I was until this season. And maybe i'll give him till the deadline this season. this season was always going to be my "tipping point" season.

The problem is this team is still sucking. It has already "tipped" into crap territory. All metrics say we will continue to suck. I'm getting really ****ing tired of watching management/coaching/etc behave as if we're not doing as bad as we are.

At this point, even if we turn it around, it doesn't show anything. The fact that we've floundered this far into the season doesn't show me that this group is "growing" even if they turn it on for the last half, how is that growth. That's just as likely more inconsistency, not growth.

at one point management needs to hedge their bets.

Is it more likely that this team is actually improving and further inaction will get us to where we need to be, or is it more likely that we're just seeing the same old same old and we are where we have always been?

If we're in the same pattern at the deadline, i firmly believe that a dramatic rebuild is actually the "safer" move. You are at least going to end up with more assets then you have now.


If we're not firmly in a playoff spot by deadline day (which i don't think is possible) then there's no excuse for further inaction.

I just would like someone to make the argument as to how not doing anything at the deadline, if there's less then a 90% chance of us making the playoffs, could be a positive or part of the plan. Not saying this is going to happen, but if it looks like a duck and talks like a duck.....




No matter what happens, I will have my mind made up 100% about chevy by next training camp.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

pcanuck are you related to Sol? What's with your obession with Sol. He is not even in the AHL, can't crack St. John's roster. He's playing in Ontario in the ECHL.

 

[truck]

I disagree I think players make the most difference on the scoresheet. I mean it is they who play is it not? When your big guns are not big guns you are going to lose the close games and we are losing those close games.

I tend to think that Chevy will end up moving one of the D for a scoring forward at some point more than likely at the draft. It makes sense because of the emergence of Trouba.

I didn't say anything about most. Just saying the GM is responsible for assembling a team that can score. Being down 6 points from Kane and 3 point from Wheeler isn't the only reason this team has struggled. Sure every little bit helps, but we are talking about 9 points - not even 9 goals. Meanwhile, other guys have like Frolik and Little have picked up a good chunk of that slack.

Bottom line is - The team needs more talent.

In the absence of superstars a team needs depth. Particularly a strong top 9. The top end guys (top 7 or maybe 8) on the Jets have been fine this year. Both the scoring and possession numbers are OK.

Tangradi, Halischuk, Thorburn, Wright, Albert, Cormier and Peluso on the other hand have offered very little. Good teams have 4th lines, but no good team dresses six fourth-liners.

Swap out a couple of those guys with real NHLers and move a legit tough minutes #4 into the defensive group and you will see more than a 9 point improvement out of the players.

Related, I would love to see the Jets sign Andrew Coligano and Nikita Nikitin this off-season. They are young and they would be a HUGE improvement over James Wright and Mark Stuart. Kicking the cruddy players down the lineup is a must.

 

[truck]

pcanuck are you related to Sol? What's with your obession with Sol. He is not even in the AHL, can't crack St. John's roster. He's playing in Ontario in the ECHL.

Troy Westwood once asked (I think it was Zinger) how Sol was doing in amongst questions about other prospects. It seemed as though (I think it was Zinger) was surprised that Sol was on anyone's radar.

People like him because he is big. Back in year one a couple tweeters argued to me that he was better than Enstrom. Related, those Tweeters think I am an idiot.

 

[Duke749]

Troy Westwood once asked (I think it was Zinger) how Sol was doing in amongst questions about other prospects. It seemed as though (I think it was Zinger) was surprised that Sol was on anyone's radar.

People like him because he is big. Back in year one a couple tweeters argued to me that he was better than Enstrom. Related, those Tweeters think I am an idiot.

Size is so overrated.

 

[Huffer]

So teams need to trade guys in their mid 20's now to get younger? The Jets are one of the youngest teams in the league, and one if your complaints about management is that they needed to get younger? Hilarious.

Yes, let's ice a team full of 20 year olds. No, wait, too old, blow that up and only dress 18 year olds. And the Jets should play Sol as well obviously because he is so amazing.

"Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Kane, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Pavelec were this teams most promising pieces, young and in their early to mid-twenties "

yes, Guerzy no argument from me. These were good young prospects you don't want to trade the second you get the ATL team. You want to see what you have. IMO, Ladd was a stud in Y1 and Y2 and Bogo showed promise.

So at the same time, when these player's values increased more, Why didn't Chevy pull the trigger on a trade and get younger? Why not rebuild? Or when these players seemed destined to be inconsistent, Why sign almost all of them to long term franchise deals? Notice the one guy he didn't sign is racking up the pts in Russia ... coincidence?

We're on our way to no where. We're have not, nor does anyone at TNSE have a plan to trade away assets for future picks. In fact, we generally trade draft picks to add assets (Seto, Frolik, Fehr...).

So we're destined to remain the same inconsistent mediocre team we are. We simply add AHL/ NHL draft picks from time to time and use waiver wire pickups to likely limit the youth movement. I mean why promote a Dman like Sol from the AHL when you can use the waiver wire. I'm sure all the AHLers must have loved that move from Chevy. Why add Telegin or O'Dell when you can get Halischuk or keep the faith with Wright.

That's not the organizational culture I thought TNSE wanted. But obviously I was wrong. TNSE must be planning a big push in 2021 when the Jets channel no longer exists, Wpg needs a new arena and we're losing the fan base. Maybe Seattle will come a calling? or heck, maybe Phoenix again (once they lose their team in 2-3 years).

 

[Hobby Bull]

because 90% of defenders in the AHL are better then Sol, and 100% of waiver eligible Dmen are also better? Have you ever seen him play? He's brutal. Bad example pcanuk, very very bad example.

your melodramatic negativity is a little grating.

That being said, realistically, I don't see how so many people are so supportive of chevy so far.

I was until this season. And maybe i'll give him till the deadline this season. this season was always going to be my "tipping point" season.

The problem is this team is still sucking. It has already "tipped" into crap territory. All metrics say we will continue to suck. I'm getting really ****ing tired of watching management/coaching/etc behave as if we're not doing as bad as we are.

At this point, even if we turn it around, it doesn't show anything. The fact that we've floundered this far into the season doesn't show me that this group is "growing" even if they turn it on for the last half, how is that growth. That's just as likely more inconsistency, not growth.

at one point management needs to hedge their bets.

Is it more likely that this team is actually improving and further inaction will get us to where we need to be, or is it more likely that we're just seeing the same old same old and we are where we have always been?

If we're in the same pattern at the deadline, i firmly believe that a dramatic rebuild is actually the "safer" move. You are at least going to end up with more assets then you have now.


If we're not firmly in a playoff spot by deadline day (which i don't think is possible) then there's no excuse for further inaction.

I just would like someone to make the argument as to how not doing anything at the deadline, if there's less then a 90% chance of us making the playoffs, could be a positive or part of the plan. Not saying this is going to happen, but if it looks like a duck and talks like a duck.....




No matter what happens, I will have my mind made up 100% about chevy by next training camp.

Let's face it...the bolded sentiment indicates that you're already past your tipping point. Even success this season would only indicate "inconsistency".

 

[Grind]

Let's face it...the bolded sentiment indicates that you're already past your tipping point. Even success this season would only indicate "inconsistency".

at this point...yes....it pretty much is tipped, but I didn't iterate this as well as I should have.





This teams performance in the wins/losses/etc columns have been bad.

The underlying, I'd call them "systemic", numbers have also been bad.

I should have clarified that further improvement in the wins/losses/etc without improvement "systemically" should only further be seen as inconsistency. That's a big difference and bad on my part for not clarifieing.

 

[Guerzy]

because 90% of defenders in the AHL are better then Sol, and 100% of waiver eligible Dmen are also better? Have you ever seen him play? He's brutal. Bad example pcanuk, very very bad example.

your melodramatic negativity is a little grating.

That being said, realistically, I don't see how so many people are so supportive of chevy so far.

I was until this season. And maybe i'll give him till the deadline this season. this season was always going to be my "tipping point" season.

The problem is this team is still sucking. It has already "tipped" into crap territory. All metrics say we will continue to suck. I'm getting really ****ing tired of watching management/coaching/etc behave as if we're not doing as bad as we are.

At this point, even if we turn it around, it doesn't show anything. The fact that we've floundered this far into the season doesn't show me that this group is "growing" even if they turn it on for the last half, how is that growth. That's just as likely more inconsistency, not growth.

at one point management needs to hedge their bets.

Is it more likely that this team is actually improving and further inaction will get us to where we need to be, or is it more likely that we're just seeing the same old same old and we are where we have always been?

If we're in the same pattern at the deadline, i firmly believe that a dramatic rebuild is actually the "safer" move. You are at least going to end up with more assets then you have now.


If we're not firmly in a playoff spot by deadline day (which i don't think is possible) then there's no excuse for further inaction.

I just would like someone to make the argument as to how not doing anything at the deadline, if there's less then a 90% chance of us making the playoffs, could be a positive or part of the plan. Not saying this is going to happen, but if it looks like a duck and talks like a duck.....




No matter what happens, I will have my mind made up 100% about chevy by next training camp.

Well said, Grind, i'm pretty well with you here. If Chevy does not improve the roster between now and next seasons training camp, i'm going to have plenty of concerns in where exactly we're headed with this group and core.

 

[garret9]

(stuff...) I mean why promote a Dman like Sol from the AHL when you can use the waiver wire. I'm sure all the AHLers must have loved that move from Chevy (stuff....).

Can't promote a d-man like Sol from the AHL when Sol isn't in the AHL. Sol is in the ECHL. This is his third season in a row being cut from the AHL.

 

[garret9]

So then tell me how are the Jets better from a talent perspective had they done what you wanted and traded a guy like Buff right when we got the team and say drafted fourth vs drafted 9th in 2012. We are no worse off. There is not one player drafted fourth through ninth that I would trade for Trouba. Hell the only player I'd be tempted to take ahead of him is Galchenyuk.

You don't need lottory picks to acquire talent. I don't believe the Jets will be any worse off if they choose to deal Buff now when his value is higher vs if they has sold him off and bottomed out for a couple of years in a controlled rebuild like you want them to. The Jets are doing a controlled rebuild just not in the way you want them to.

You don't NEED lottery picks BUT it exponentially improves your chances that it works.

The Trouba example is an exception not the rule. It is unwise to build a strategy on low probabilities.

 

[garret9]

The interesting thing about this whole discussion is, when you look back at the last Stanley Cup winners over the past 10 years, there have only been 2 repeat winners -- The Blackhawks, and The Red Wings.

Stanley Cup is the goal, but IMO not the greatest measure of success.

The best team doesn't always win a playoff series and you can only have one cup winner. The best team is more likely to win a playoff series, but not guaranteed. There is always chance that the lesser team wins.

Someone did the numbers once and I can't find them (totally pulling out of the air here) but I think the weaker team wins a playoff series 30something% of the time.

This is why I still take annual contenders who are always in the playoffs as a sign of success even if they haven't been fortunate enough to win the Cup (ex: SJS).

 

[jetkarma*]

Well said, Grind, i'm pretty well with you here. If Chevy does not improve the roster between now and next seasons training camp, i'm going to have plenty of concerns in where exactly we're headed with this group and core.

By roster do you mean the active NHL one or the organizational one?

Hard to imagine the organizational roster isn't deemed improved.

 

[Guerzy]

By roster do you mean the active NHL one or the organizational one?

Hard to imagine the organizational roster isn't deemed improved.

The NHL roster. I think the organizational depth is improving pretty nicely in terms of our prospect system.

 

[garret9]

The NHL roster. I think the organizational depth is improving pretty nicely in terms of our prospect system.

Which should have an * on it.

My opinion on our prospects are quite well known, especially the last bunch, but...

*Nothing is certain
*Chevy could have been just lucky
*Being a non-playoff team you would expect the organizational depth improves relative to league with having earlier selections