Latvia, the next big country?

[Tuoppi]

While I agree with almost everything you said about Dinamo Riga and KHL, there is one aspect of hockey development that is hard to express in numbers - indirect influence of the KHL team on the popularity of sport. During its life, Dinamo did attract significant attention. It was attended by 8000 fans each game during its successful years and 4000 - 5000 during its downfall. It is still far more interest than any other sports team has ever attracted over long period of time, and it will not change in the near future unless a miracle happens and we get a team in SHL.

Yeah, Dinamo management was brain dead - their academy was average at best and their misuse of local players and money resulted in 0 competition. But you never know, how much of the recent success of the U18 and U20 teams is the result of some parents watching high quality hockey twice a week with their kids and understanding that it is a valid future career or a good sport for everyone to enjoy. Or is it just a coincidence that players, who currently show previously unheard of results in the world juniors were 4-6 years old during the time when Dinamo Riga eliminated SKA and Dinamo Moscow from the playoffs?

Which is why I repeat what I previously stated - you cant build a top hockey culture if you country is only interested in hockey one month a year. Sure, if we win a medal every year, maybe. And this bronze medal will definitely give an impulse to hockey development. But that is not sustainable.

When Finland won its first championship in 1995 there was a similar celebration. Lots of kids got into playing hockey. New arenas were built everywhere in Finland even to small towns. Some say the win helped Finland from recession. Hockey became overwhelmingly the biggest sport in Finland and the World championships the biggest event. Other sports suffered. I expect similar things happening in Latvia but you see the results when kids of today grow big.

 

[Vikz]

The popularity of ice hockey as a sport was in no way increased by the KHL. That's just complete conjecture mostly based on your own imagination, most likely due to yourself being a fan.

Yeah, I was a fan. And who knows, would I be posting here, watching every single WHC game live or in pubs and meeting the team near the monument, if I hadnt been consistenly interested in hockey for the last 15 years, largely thanks to having a team in the KHL? But maybe Im the only guy in Latvia like this.

Otherwise, your argument is no better than mine, since you cant prove the opposite. Too bad, there was no Latvia-B with no KHL team so that we can compare.

 

[sennysensen]

It would be cool if Latvia became a top team in the world, especially since they love hockey so much. In reality, they have too small of a population. It's like Iceland with Soccer.

If any country will move up and up in the hockey rankings, It'll be Germany.

 

[CatOTails]

The popularity of ice hockey as a sport was in no way increased by the KHL. That's just complete conjecture mostly based on your own imagination, most likely due to yourself being a fan.

Yeah, right.
Dude, do you even live in Latvia? I read your posts like WTF? Dinamo Riga was the MOST popular sports brand in here, by a mile. People were actually buying tickets, team merchandise and attending their games to watch quality hockey live.
Now you've got HK MOGO playing against HK PRIZMA with the league's webpage straight out of 2004. That's your beerleague level, but you sound like that's a quality upgrade.
get real ffs.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Too small for any sort of consistency. Even with a perfect hockey infrastructure they are always going to be limited by the country’s size. It would be like if you assembled a team only from Manitoba. Sure they could be decent enough but they’d never really be given much of a chance against team Rest of Canada.

 

[Vikz]

When Finland won its first championship in 1995 there was a similar celebration. Lots of kids got into playing hockey. New arenas were build everywhere in Finland even to small towns. Some say the win helped Finland from recession. Hockey became overwhelmingly the biggest sport in Finland and the World championships the biggest event. Other sports suffered. I expect similar things happening in Latvia but you see the results when kids of today grow big.

Fingers crossed we get the same impulse. People here commenting that Latvia is too small compare it to US or Russia, but forget that Finland is only less than 3 times larger than Latvia. So, being as effective as Finland, Latvia could have about 18 NHLers, with about 2 or 3 being considered stars, with 5-8 players drafted per year. It would definitely allow to bypass Switzerland and Germany. So no, the population is not an issue. Especially considering that Latvia, along with Finland, and, obviously, Canada, are the only countries to have hockey as their top sport. So, the combination of popularity and population certainly allow Latvia to be a top hockey country. We just need to use our resources smart.

 

[ViD]

Yeah, right.
Dude, do you even live in Latvia? I read your posts like WTF? Dinamo Riga was the MOST popular sports brand in here, by a mile. People were actually buying tickets, team merchandise and attending their games to watch quality hockey live.
Now you've got HK MOGO playing against HK PRIZMA with the league's webpage straight out of 2004. That's your beerleague level, but you sound like that's a quality upgrade.
get real ffs.

Thanks for an unbiased take.

 

[wmupreds]

It would be cool if Latvia became a top team in the world, especially since they love hockey so much. In reality, they have too small of a population. It's like Iceland with Soccer.

If any country will move up and up in the hockey rankings, It'll be Germany.

I'm very much an outsider, just someone who has always enjoyed watching the Latvians punch above their weight, but it seems to me that socioeconomic reality is a bigger issue than simple population. Sure, the population limits their theoretical potential, but Latvia only has about 8000 registered players. If they had the same % of hockey players as Finland it'd be about 3 times that number.

Hockey is an expensive sport and that is limiting Latvia's growth as much or more than simple population as I see it.

 

[Tuoppi]

Fingers crossed we get the same impulse. People here commenting that Latvia is too small compare it to US or Russia, but forget that Finland is only less than 3 times larger than Latvia. So, being as effective as Finland, Latvia could have about 18 NHLers, with about 2 or 3 being considered stars, with 5-8 players drafted per year. It would definitely allow to bypass Switzerland and Germany. So no, the population is not an issue. Especially considering that Latvia, along with Finland, and, obviously, Canada, are the only countries to have hockey as their top sport. So, the combination of popularity and population certainly allow Latvia to be a top hockey country. We just need to use our resources smart.

I thought that basketball is Latvia's nr1 sport.

If you look at registered players you have to think that there must be differences in player registration by country.

 

[Dofs]

Bullshit.

'Staying in the elite tier' has never been an issue.

Then go to the eliteprospects and take a look at our national team in 2008. Specifically where everyone played. If you will still say that relegation wasn't a threat, I won't believe you.

 

[ozo]

Then go to the eliteprospects and take a look at our national team in 2008. Specifically where everyone played. If you will still say that relegation wasn't a threat, I won't believe you.

That sure is not the best way how to look at things. This year our top scorer played in Austrian league, so by your logic we must have gotten relegated if that is our level, right? How about we look at actual results of the team, I sure remember one year when we were one Masalskis save against France away from actually being relegated and we had 13 KHL players on our roster.

 

[CatOTails]

That sure is not the best way how to look at things. This year our top scorer played in Austrian league, so by your logic we must have gotten relegated if that is our level, right? How about we look at actual results of the team, I sure remember one year when were one Masalskis save against France away from actually being relegated and we had 13 KHL players on our roster.

Because level of hockey in some specific country is determined by WC results.. right.

 

[Dofs]

That sure is not the best way how to look at things. This year our top scorer played in Austrian league, so by your logic we must have gotten relegated if that is our level, right? How about we look at actual results of the team, I sure remember one year when we were one Masalskis save against France away from actually being relegated and we had 13 KHL players on our roster.

I wouldn't view your arguments like that. Our top player from Austria was surrounded by players from top European leagues, do you think we would still have bronze if he was surrounded by players from Belarusian league instead? And with Masalskis example - that tournament was a bad one, bad year, it didn't work, we were almost relegated with 13 KHL players. Now imagine a similar bad tournament with 13 players from, dunno, DEL2 league, or French one. You think relegation wouldn't have happened then?

Over many years a team will have its good years and bad years with the floor and ceiling being largely dependant on the average level of the team. And if your average level is that of Belarusian league, your bad year will simply have you relegated. And that's the level of the team that we had in late 2000s because our great generation of 90s-early 2000s retired. That was the last legacy of the Soviet system and the Latvian system didn't work just yet, like it does now. That gap was the most dangerous of our hockey and if we played more years at that level, we would had been eventually relegated. I maintain that KHL helped us to reduce the length of the gap and smoothen the transition between the two systems by giving opportunity for players like Darzins, Redlihs, Galvins, etc. to flourish that I doubt they would had opportunity to otherwise.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

Have a former neighbor who played on Latvia in the world juniors back in the day

He's a Russian guy though

 

[Caser]

If so - fair enough. I can't argue with that. I almost lumped you together with bad faith posters who think that KHL emergence is the holy grail to any other hockey nation other than Russia.

Since my reply would be an offtopic for the previous thread I decided to put it here (since I think you had Dinamo Riga in mind). Not sure if bad faith or not, but I think a KHL team can be a useful tool if managed properly. I mean, at least for the last seven seasons Dinamo sucked badly and hopelessly. With that kind of situation they could've decided like "Ok, we're bad anyway, so lets give our local talent a chance, let's have at least one Latvian goalie on a team and five U21 Latvian skaters". In that situation I think that not only it would great for the development of those guys, but also would attract fan attention. However the management didn't care and the organization indeed didn't exactly contribute to the talent development, at least definitely not as it could had.

Actually you can easily replace the KHL with any other strong league where possibly could a team from Latvia play in the future - if the proper management isn't there it just won't give much benefits.

 

[ozo]

Since my reply would be an offtopic for the previous thread I decided to put it here (since I think you had Dinamo Riga in mind). Not sure if bad faith or not, but I think a KHL team can be a useful tool if managed properly. I mean, at least for the last seven seasons Dinamo sucked badly and hopelessly. With that kind of situation they could've decided like "Ok, we're bad anyway, so lets give our local talent a chance, let's have at least one Latvian goalie on a team and five U21 Latvian skaters". In that situation I think that not only it would great for the development of those guys, but also would attract fan attention. However the management didn't care and the organization indeed didn't exactly contribute to the talent development, at least definitely not as it could had.

Actually you can easily replace the KHL with any other strong league where possibly could a team from Latvia play in the future - if the proper management isn't there it just won't give much benefits.

This will be sort of reply to you and sort of venting some paragraphs towards the overall community here lol. I apologize for that.

There is a conversation/disagreement to be had about all players on a single team being beneficial to senior NT's, but I'm almost sure you have to go back CSKA Moscow of Soviet Union to see the undeniable benefits of it. And even then I think it is simply down to literally the best talent being brought together from all corners of the USSR, I mean they didn't just assemble nobody's on that roster year after year some guys here suggest for Latvia should do.

All the actual developments happens at grassroots level, hence the rise of Belarus junior teams at international level very lately that can't be attributed to KHL or MHL or any other outside forces. All the KHL era ''success" of Kazakhstan or Belarus is down to how many Dallman's or Platt's of various quality they assemble on their roster. As far as Latvia is concerned, we had just as many good years as we had bad, there is zero tangible proof KHL did anything one way or another really. All I can assure is, that before KHL money showed up in European scene, that none of national team players without contract for following season felt too tired when national team called in the spring. If you are a fan of KHL (similar to NHL) I understand you don't care about it, but please put on the table something proving your theories that senior players being thrown in more serious league with higher salaries provide anything at all for national teams.

I sort of want to ramble on about the great Denmark, Norway, France or Slovenia teams in international scene down the years in KHL era of hockey, who until our bronze just now, had just as much success, if not more (without naturalizing foreigners) as Latvia or Belarus did without having this "flagship'' team in any major Euro league, but I've done it enough times here lol.

Any sort of Latvian team in major need proper financial grounds, and money doesn't grow on trees for hockey in tiny markets like Latvia... well it kind of did for Dinamo Riga lol, but as you put it they simply did not care about the perception of the product they put on the ice in last years at all. Circling back to the upgraded Belarus junior development and Dinamo Minsk, they have, in last couple of years, managed to give opportunities to some of their most prominent prospects which benefits NT, but overall their losing hockey product is not sustainable in proper market economy.

 

[_vivelequebec_]

If any country will move up and up in the hockey rankings, It'll be Germany.

Well, Slovakia has a golden generation incoming. They are between 7-9 with Switzerland and Germany. It’s probably 7. SWI 8. GER 9. SLK, but that order can change anytime in the next 5 years. At 10-11 you have locks in Latvia and Belarus. Denmark was close to it, probably in, but they never replaced their aging squad. After that it’s probably Austria, Norway, France, Italy, GB, Kazakhstan, Hungary, Slovenia and Japan. All far from the top 10.

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Would love them to keep improving - we need more teams that can compete with the normal suspects.

 

[EK47]

I'm super happy for Latvia and their fans that they earned a bronze medal, but in all fairness they've had stronger teams in the last decade. Daugavins, Indrasis, Kenins are in decline. Darzins, Karsums and Redlihs retired or got too old for the national team.

Meanwhile, they've only had five guys drafted in the last six years, all of them in the later rounds. The way I see it, this medal was "the last chance" for much of this aging core. Luckily Abols and Balcers are still in good age, and if they can have Blueger and Girgensons they might be able to pull off another upset in the quarterfinals.

But really they need to develop more young players. Silovs is on good track and Locmelis has NHL upside, but it's not enough. But long term, one can hope this bronze medal inspires the next generation. It's a small nation with limited rescoures, but the hockey culture is certainly there.

This. Just so much this.
Even if it is a slightly depressing state of player development. You simply need more young talent.


I’m happy for Latvia though but Elvs is right.

 

[Gubbhornet]

I think the population is too small... but maybe Latvia can become to hockey what Uruguay is to soccer? Basically a country that constantly overperforms in relation to their population?

And Latvians, if you see Gudlevski on the street please tell him that the town of Örnsköldsvik loves him!

 

[Namejs]

Yeah, right.
Dude, do you even live in Latvia? I read your posts like WTF? Dinamo Riga was the MOST popular sports brand in here, by a mile. People were actually buying tickets, team merchandise and attending their games to watch quality hockey live.
Now you've got HK MOGO playing against HK PRIZMA with the league's webpage straight out of 2004. That's your beerleague level, but you sound like that's a quality upgrade.
get real ffs.

I am Latvian and I do live in Latvia currently.

Dinamo Riga was a brand that was popular in very limited socioeconomic circles. *After 2014* it was mostly frequented by Russian-speakers or people from ethnically mixed families or lower-class Latvians from the projects.

The only exception to that was obviously children, many of whom actually got tickets for free. And then there was a small amount of nostalgic 50+ year olds who remember watching the Soviet league when they were kids back when they weren't so chronically depressed and alcoholic.

Once again, I've explained this in depth on these boards multiple times, but having a minor pro domestic league or having high attendance is not a prerequisite for having a good national team. In fact, the opposite is true until you cross the uncanny valley, which is more of a canyon in ice hockey.

Neither of GB, France, Austria, etc. are going to overtake Latvia in IIHF events precisely because they have a 'good enough' domestic league thst functions as a black hole of talent development with very few local prospects willing to move abroad exactly because of the fact that there are 'good enough' options available in the neighboring town or whatever.

Latvia is never, ever going to have an advanced enough hockey program to churn out NHL prospects from kids that have been playing domestically their entire lives. It's not going to happen.

So you have two options. Either stop the outflow of young prospects and increase the level of the domestic league, severely damaging the quality of the national team or continue as it is, with all of our leading prospects playing abroad before they have even turned 18.

The notion that there is a need for a major pro club team in order to have a competitive national team is just completely absurd and does not make any sense. This has been proved time and time again by Belarus and Kazakhstan. It has the opposite effect.

 

[Namejs]

This. Just so much this.
Even if it is a slightly depressing state of player development. You simply need more young talent.


I’m happy for Latvia though but Elvs is right.

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

We've never had so much young talent.

With all the prospects we have in the pipeline, we're in a period with likely the most Latvian NHL draftees in any given 5-7 year period in history.

I'm counting on at least 3-4 draftees this and the next year.

 

[Namejs]

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

We've never had so much young talent.

With all the prospects we have in the pipeline, we're in a period with likely the most Latvian NHL draftees in any given 5-7 year period in history.

I'm counting on at least 3-4 draftees this and the next year.

And to clarify, I am by no means saying that we're somehow going to end up being a top 8 country due to that, the point is that we are in no way on a downward trend in terms of the overall talent pool, we have been trending up for several years and that is going to continue for at least the next few years, seeing how good our 2004-2006 kids are.

Which should be more than enough to replace the aging core.

Analyzing the way the talent is spread out, we are seeing a lot of goalie and D prospects, which was not the case 10-15 years ago. Before there was an overproduction of soft/skilled wingers, which we're not producing at the previous rate.

We're seeing a lot of big-bodied players coming up and the avg height/weight ratio has been pretty incredible, we're constantly one of the biggest teams at all levels.

This should give you a rough idea of how the national team is going to look like in 5 years time. Likely, exactly the same playing style and identity as now. Not extremely skilled, but very tough to play against.

What we need to continue our (limited) success is basically a couple of Balcers and Daugavins-tier guys, which is not that big of an ask.

 

[ItWasJustified]

I thought that basketball is Latvia's nr1 sport.

You're thinking of Lithuania. Two different countries.

 

[Tuoppi]

You're thinking of Lithuania. Two different countries.

No I wasn't. I know its the biggest in Lithuania. I have been to both countries.

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Sport in Latvia - Wikipedia

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