Very true. Russian hockey could have benefitted from Larionov's extensive experience. Too bad that he seemed to let old grudges get in the way of the bigger picture.
Larionov vs russian development
- Thread starter vorky
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Very true. Russian hockey could have benefitted from Larionov's extensive experience. Too bad that he seemed to let old grudges get in the way of the bigger picture.
MadarameIkakku83
Registered User
just want to throw in my 2 cents as an avid follower of hockey:
as far as young prospects go, for the most part i think it is better for them to stay at home through their prime developing years (16-20), im a big believer in not rushing promising young players and taking them out of their comfort zone, this seems to be especially true in the case of young russians, one reason being is that the khl seems to be a much different league in terms of style and aggression, as opposed to the sm-liiga and sel, where there is more of an emphasis to play a gritty game which eventually trends towards the north american style...
two players for me that immediately come to mind are kabanov and avtsin... i will talk a bit about avtsin as kabanov's situation is well documented.. avtsin is currently playing in the pro league of the ahl and does not seem to have found his niche at all, there was a report leaked out that he was promised a few games with the montreal canadiens, whether it is true or not, at this point i really cant see that happening this season unless there is alot of injuries and trades coming... at the draft, avtsin was said to be a supremely talented forward, great technical skills in puck handling, a deadly wrist shot and speed to burn, even more important was that he seemed to be of physical maturity at about 6'2/3 and close to 180-190 lbs... at this point in his na career he seems to have gotten no better than when he first arrived, he continues to play 3rd/4th line minutes and if i had to make a bet i think he leaves for russia next year or the year after if his struggles continue...
speaking more about off ice differences there is the much bigger difference in a language barrier between russia and even sweden or finland, not even mentioning north america... many young kids in finland and sweden speak excellent english (better than many people born here in north america lol) and it seems to be almost a trend that you learn english at a very young age, russia does not have this i would say it is close to opposite and it is nowhere near encouraged to the level as in the nordic nations...
aside from language there is the massive culutural differences between russia and north america that im not going to go into because i dont live in russia and i dont want to make assumptions, so maybe our russian friends can help us with this...
having said all of that, i dont think that it is is a horrible idea for all russian kids to come over and play in chl juniors or us nt programs, there will be some who are very successful, but i think that is limited to the absolutely most talented young russians who have little to learn by staying in russia, and even then i hope that it is the hockey player who makes that decision and not his parents, or his agent, or a great legend like igor larionov who promises them that this is the best thing for their future, in reality nobody can really know what is the best for them except for the person making the decision
for now we will see how well the big three continue to play, speaking about yakupov, galchenyuk and grigorenko, only time will tell if this path they have taken will help them become good nhl players or if they will end up back in russia in a few years regretting their decisions of coming over..
as far as young prospects go, for the most part i think it is better for them to stay at home through their prime developing years (16-20), im a big believer in not rushing promising young players and taking them out of their comfort zone, this seems to be especially true in the case of young russians, one reason being is that the khl seems to be a much different league in terms of style and aggression, as opposed to the sm-liiga and sel, where there is more of an emphasis to play a gritty game which eventually trends towards the north american style...
two players for me that immediately come to mind are kabanov and avtsin... i will talk a bit about avtsin as kabanov's situation is well documented.. avtsin is currently playing in the pro league of the ahl and does not seem to have found his niche at all, there was a report leaked out that he was promised a few games with the montreal canadiens, whether it is true or not, at this point i really cant see that happening this season unless there is alot of injuries and trades coming... at the draft, avtsin was said to be a supremely talented forward, great technical skills in puck handling, a deadly wrist shot and speed to burn, even more important was that he seemed to be of physical maturity at about 6'2/3 and close to 180-190 lbs... at this point in his na career he seems to have gotten no better than when he first arrived, he continues to play 3rd/4th line minutes and if i had to make a bet i think he leaves for russia next year or the year after if his struggles continue...
speaking more about off ice differences there is the much bigger difference in a language barrier between russia and even sweden or finland, not even mentioning north america... many young kids in finland and sweden speak excellent english (better than many people born here in north america lol) and it seems to be almost a trend that you learn english at a very young age, russia does not have this i would say it is close to opposite and it is nowhere near encouraged to the level as in the nordic nations...
aside from language there is the massive culutural differences between russia and north america that im not going to go into because i dont live in russia and i dont want to make assumptions, so maybe our russian friends can help us with this...
having said all of that, i dont think that it is is a horrible idea for all russian kids to come over and play in chl juniors or us nt programs, there will be some who are very successful, but i think that is limited to the absolutely most talented young russians who have little to learn by staying in russia, and even then i hope that it is the hockey player who makes that decision and not his parents, or his agent, or a great legend like igor larionov who promises them that this is the best thing for their future, in reality nobody can really know what is the best for them except for the person making the decision
for now we will see how well the big three continue to play, speaking about yakupov, galchenyuk and grigorenko, only time will tell if this path they have taken will help them become good nhl players or if they will end up back in russia in a few years regretting their decisions of coming over..
I think you have done an excellent job of pointing out the reasons why it is so much more difficult for even talented players to come to NA and have a successful career. Canada/USA and Russia have completely different hockey cultures. The NA culture is much more physical and emphasizes checking, grinding in the corners, and fighting battles in front of the net. The NA hockey culture is both entertaining and preferred by its fans, and it won't be changing any time soon.
Russian hockey culture is home grown, and had almost no influence from the NA style. Back in the late 1940's, when Russian hockey was established, Stalin was still in power, and Russia was completely isolated from NA for the average citizen, which made it impossible to just jump on a plane and go over and study NA hockey. Also, Anatoly Tarasov believed that to be successful, Russian hockey should have its own distinct style. The end result was a completely different emphasis on skills and tactics that remains largely intact today. With a few exceptions, Russian players who come over to NA are required to completely change their orientation to hockey in order to fit in and function in their new setting. With language and other cultural influences also impacting, more often than not, genuinely talented players like Avtsin come over with high hopes and expectations, but end up playing a short career in the AHL before either coming back to Russia or leaving hockey altogether.
The KHL offers an opportunity to come back and still realize the same financial aspirations that a player sought to accomplish in NA, and the level of hockey is close to the same as well. Some General Managers in the NHL, Glen Sather and Bob Gainey to name a couple (the others may not say it out loud, but probably use the same considerations), were pretty open in saying that if all things are equal, they will take the NA player over the European (especially Russians, because Scandinavians are more adjusted to the NA style). If the Russian player has to literally be judged to be better than the NA player to win a roster spot, and the Russian player does not muck in the corner, it is easy to understand why so few Russians actually win an NHL roster spot.
Latgale_fan
Registered User
blah blah blah, if there are more guys like Yakupov, Grigorenko, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Russians will rule the NHL, if there are only some hyped up Tikhonovs, Filatovs and Kabanovs then there won't be a roster spot for such guys be they Russian or parussian...
Let's face it- neither Tikhonov, nor Filatov or Kabanov were anywhere near, say, Kuznetsov or Grigorenko level be it at the age of 18 or 20.... Tikhonov had 12 pts in 43 games at the age of 20 (now compare to Kuznetsov this year)... what was he expecting when he left? A path of roses? They even let him play 60 games in NHL next year. As concerns Filatov and Kabanov we may never know but I've always wondered why the F they thought Filatov was nr. 6 in the draft??? Cause of 5 games in CSKA at the age of 18? Kucherov had similar stats last year at the same age, he didn't leave to NA but still plays mainly MHL and who knows... maybe next year will too. What's with Shalunov? Why can't we see him in Traktor.
Some people screamed that Grigorenko was ruined, Kamaev was ruined, when they left. These were 2 top scorers in MHL in the 1994 group and chances are Grigorenko will go 1st or 2nd overall and Kamaev - end of 1st round, beginning of 2nd. So... in what way they are ruined? Is Burmistrov ruined? Of course, some will point out that you need to see a few years, they'll get sent to AHL and blah blah blah. Yes, I agree, it's too soon to judge but I don't see Shalunov or Kucherov who are a year older rising though the ranks in Russia and showing that one day they can be great NHLers... maybe because their draft rounds already say how probable is that (speaking moe about Shalunov).
In short- it depends on a player, not only how well he can adjust but also how hard working he is etc. Yeah, it is harder to adapt in NA but there's also less chance to ''catch a star'' there...
Let's face it- neither Tikhonov, nor Filatov or Kabanov were anywhere near, say, Kuznetsov or Grigorenko level be it at the age of 18 or 20.... Tikhonov had 12 pts in 43 games at the age of 20 (now compare to Kuznetsov this year)... what was he expecting when he left? A path of roses? They even let him play 60 games in NHL next year. As concerns Filatov and Kabanov we may never know but I've always wondered why the F they thought Filatov was nr. 6 in the draft??? Cause of 5 games in CSKA at the age of 18? Kucherov had similar stats last year at the same age, he didn't leave to NA but still plays mainly MHL and who knows... maybe next year will too. What's with Shalunov? Why can't we see him in Traktor.
Some people screamed that Grigorenko was ruined, Kamaev was ruined, when they left. These were 2 top scorers in MHL in the 1994 group and chances are Grigorenko will go 1st or 2nd overall and Kamaev - end of 1st round, beginning of 2nd. So... in what way they are ruined? Is Burmistrov ruined? Of course, some will point out that you need to see a few years, they'll get sent to AHL and blah blah blah. Yes, I agree, it's too soon to judge but I don't see Shalunov or Kucherov who are a year older rising though the ranks in Russia and showing that one day they can be great NHLers... maybe because their draft rounds already say how probable is that (speaking moe about Shalunov).
In short- it depends on a player, not only how well he can adjust but also how hard working he is etc. Yeah, it is harder to adapt in NA but there's also less chance to ''catch a star'' there...
Latgale_fan
Registered User
And what can your Russian ''liberasts'' actually do? Can they be voted in parliament in a legitimate elections? No! Can they go to Putin and say ''we want to work together with you and build our derzhava?" Sure they can but in that case they'll just sit in the office, drink coffee and do whatever Putin will say them to do and won't be allowed to express any of their own ideas.
So what can they do, really?
The same with Larionov and KHL. Surely he can go to KHL and say ''let's work together'' but Medvedev will just do things his way and will never listen to what anybody else says.
That's a common problem in Russia? Why aren't clubs profitable? Why the official song or band or whatever of MHL is some 40+ 80s rock guys few of MHL players would actually listen to? Because nobody cares about democracy or fresh ideas or whatever, If I'm a club's owner/ league's manager etc. I can wear a big sable fur coat, spend millions and not listen to anybody because it's my damn money and I can spend it however I want and you dear not say any bad thing about that because it's all perfect... at least in my head.
I often wonder why pay a nice salary to a marketing team if you actually don't listen to any of their ideas and don't want to do a thing to raise revenues or make your arena better for fans? But there are such club owners. Maybe it's just a wish to ''play NHL", sit around the round table, look at some videos from Minsk, Mytischi, Riga or Saint Petersburg and talk about how cool is our league and how it grows every year....
But it's not all bad, the league is developing, the interest is rising... One small thing- a half decent youtube channel, imho, has made KHL like 10 times more visible outside Russia...
ozo
Registered User
- Feb 24, 2010
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- 443
I promised myself that I'll stay clear of this thread but here I am again because I don't agree on what said about Tikhonov. I feel like he didn't get a fair shot at earning a permanent spot with Coyotes. he was the oldest first rounder in NHL draft in many years, and he had almost three seasons of solid pro hockey behind him unlike Filatov who was ace at semi-pro level without getting a point in his five sole appearances at RSL. So he wasn't rushed.
His father (yes, he is biased, but the way how he argued convinced me) in his latest interview in Latvia told about indecision of Coyotes organization throughout his stay at Phoenix. Giving a lot of icetime in his first season, sending him down next saying that it's unlikely that he would be back anytime soon because team has a course of being older, and so on .
Anyway his father said that NHL is very much in Viktor's plans even if he'll need to wait until Phoenix's rights on him runs out. Who knows maybe Yotes trade his rights ala Kari Ramo. Every time I've seen him this season he looks like NHL-er to me.
His father (yes, he is biased, but the way how he argued convinced me) in his latest interview in Latvia told about indecision of Coyotes organization throughout his stay at Phoenix. Giving a lot of icetime in his first season, sending him down next saying that it's unlikely that he would be back anytime soon because team has a course of being older, and so on .
Anyway his father said that NHL is very much in Viktor's plans even if he'll need to wait until Phoenix's rights on him runs out. Who knows maybe Yotes trade his rights ala Kari Ramo. Every time I've seen him this season he looks like NHL-er to me.
No one said that all Russians would fall short - of course the superstars will be superstars wherever they go. You may not have realized that Tarasenko and Kuznetsov never actually played junior hockey in NA. As for Grigorenko and Yakupov, they are superior talents and will likely be stars anywhere they go, although they haven't accomplished enough yet to make a judgment. But the guys like Namestnikov and Zlobin probably would have been much better off staying in Russia. They aren't superstars, and they are probably going nowhere in NA.
ozo
Registered User
- Feb 24, 2010
- 4,364
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Like Tikhonov, Alexandrov, Zubarev, Makarov?
There are no guareantees, players can be unable to adjust to NA at the age of 18 or 20 or 23.
cska78
Registered User
I can't stand this stupid attitude. I rarely use those words, but this is what I think about this.
Larionov does more for russian hockey than you morons will ever want to realize. He never had rushed a player to leave Russia if it wasn't in the interest of a player. He's the opposite of what the old fashioned system of fat men in their offices want. They are the ones who ruin russian hockey's future, not Larionov. He basically is in exile, because they always blocked him from returning into the russian hockey system at any significant position. He does what he can from whre he is now i.e NA. He will develop us a fine bunch of players for the future starting with Yakupov who was nowhere near the touted future superstar he is now before he came to NA and got mentored by Larionov. You can't be serious if you think he could get better guidance in Nizhnekamsk.
You all are just butthurt if anybody talks about vivid and existent problems in russian hockey and see him as a "traitor" to humanity... I meant russian hockey.
I disagree. Larionov is an agent, there is definitely $$ motivating Igor. I understand why he might want to have clashed with KHL execs, but by definition, he is clearly not bettering Russian hockey. At the end of the day Yakupov is currently out with his 3rd injury, 2nd concussion at age 18. In 3 years he could be out of hockey like Primeau. If he stayed in the KHL he would most likely be healthy and have time to mature and grow as a player. Throwing a young Russian who skates as fast as Yak and tends to stick handle with his head down onto a small NA ice surface is suicide in my opinion. Eventually, these guys will mature and learn not to play with head down but it takes time, and the KHL is the perfect haven for this. Players are dropping like flies in the CHL Zharkov missed half season, Kuchin currently out 3 weeks so far, Yakupov, Shalimov, Sergeev, Kolesnikovs all missed a lot of time, Kohklachev out for season, Telegin was out for few months, Galiev missed almost entire season.
Lets look across the pond I think only Marchenko missed lots of time.
What does Igor tell them, come to CHL where your 4x's more likely to get injured?
Peter25
Registered User
malkinfan, I agree 100%.
I wonder how long these idiots will continue to go to the CHL and ruin their careers?
I wonder how long these idiots will continue to go to the CHL and ruin their careers?
Peter25
Registered User
Yakupov and Grigorenko would be good KHL performers now had they stayed in Russia. Now they are totally ruined and won't accomplish much in their careers.
Most of the time Yakupov/Grigorenko level players will succeed regardless. Its the other guys who ruin their careers in the CHL.
Despite having the talent of a Yakupov/Grigorenko, I hope to god that Tolchinsky stays with CSKA.....he's a kid the CHL could ruin. He's a Larionov client though.
cska78
Registered User
Peter25
Registered User
Latgale_fan
Registered User
I don't know about this ''ruining players'' business.... It all seems to be based on 2008 draft and Filatov/Tikhonov case in which Tikhonov isn't actually ruined at all and plays for SKA successfully and went to NHL at the same age Ovechkin did... only before that he had 12 points per season in Severstal so... what did he expect in NHL???
Other than that who is ruined actually? Some 2nd and later round drafted players? Gusev still doesn't get much ice time in KHL so maybe KHL ruins him... and Kucherov making them play in inferior league and get 2 points per game on average. Shalunov doesn't get ice time in Traktor too.
The problem often is, imho, that Russians just want to see the next Ovechkin or Malkin in every half decent talent they have. And if someone is great at 16 it doesn't mean he'll grow up to be a star either playing in KHL or NHL. Not every Canadian grows up to be a star and not every Swede too.
I'm not saying Russians should go to CHL. I'd only be happy if Russians played in MHL and developed in Russia but how big a gain it would be I don't know. Sure people like to say that Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Semin developed in Russia and they're the best Russians there, Datsyuk too. But aside for Radulov and both 2008 draft ''ruined guys'' (out of which Tikhonov developed in Russia till the same age as Ovechkin and isn't ruined at all) top talent hasn't exactly went North America route and this draft will actually be first when top Russians will come from CHL. As concerns guys drafted in later rounds I bet there are 100s of examples of players who weren't as good to achieve their potential from both those who stayed in Russia and who went to Canada.
Take for example 09/10 season in KHL.
Among top U20 guys we have
3. Anatoli Nikontsev Automobilist 48 games 12+3= 15 pts. This season... 15 points for Spartak
6. Vyacheslav Kulyomin CSKA 29 games 3+9=12 points. This season... 9 points in 35 games and couple of games in MHL
12. Roberts Bukarts Dinamo Riga 32 games 3+4=7 points. This season... 6 points in 26 games, MHL... Top scorer in Spengler Cup.
There are of course guys like Panarin, Chudinov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Orlov who have progressed a lot but some guys will mature slower or will never become top players.
Other than that who is ruined actually? Some 2nd and later round drafted players? Gusev still doesn't get much ice time in KHL so maybe KHL ruins him... and Kucherov making them play in inferior league and get 2 points per game on average. Shalunov doesn't get ice time in Traktor too.
The problem often is, imho, that Russians just want to see the next Ovechkin or Malkin in every half decent talent they have. And if someone is great at 16 it doesn't mean he'll grow up to be a star either playing in KHL or NHL. Not every Canadian grows up to be a star and not every Swede too.
I'm not saying Russians should go to CHL. I'd only be happy if Russians played in MHL and developed in Russia but how big a gain it would be I don't know. Sure people like to say that Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Malkin, Semin developed in Russia and they're the best Russians there, Datsyuk too. But aside for Radulov and both 2008 draft ''ruined guys'' (out of which Tikhonov developed in Russia till the same age as Ovechkin and isn't ruined at all) top talent hasn't exactly went North America route and this draft will actually be first when top Russians will come from CHL. As concerns guys drafted in later rounds I bet there are 100s of examples of players who weren't as good to achieve their potential from both those who stayed in Russia and who went to Canada.
Take for example 09/10 season in KHL.
Among top U20 guys we have
3. Anatoli Nikontsev Automobilist 48 games 12+3= 15 pts. This season... 15 points for Spartak
6. Vyacheslav Kulyomin CSKA 29 games 3+9=12 points. This season... 9 points in 35 games and couple of games in MHL
12. Roberts Bukarts Dinamo Riga 32 games 3+4=7 points. This season... 6 points in 26 games, MHL... Top scorer in Spengler Cup.
There are of course guys like Panarin, Chudinov, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Orlov who have progressed a lot but some guys will mature slower or will never become top players.
Last edited:
UkraineTrain
Registered User
UkraineTrain
Registered User
cska78
Registered User
by ruined people mean that without fully grasping the Russian hockey players are being taught to play NA hockey and in the end fail at both.
cska78
Registered User
Jersey Fan 12
Positive Vibes
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Not saying I agree or disagree - merely that I'm finding this conversation somewhat informative since I know very little about the Russian junior system.
But the argument below could be equated with football (soccer) here in the USA. All but of a handful of our top players leave America to compete in Europe (although at the junior level for the most part the American soccer programs seem to be doing a nice job of producing players).
I was also curious as to one post on here previously - someone mentioned Grigorenko and Yakupov being "ruined" as far as their careers are concerned. From what's being said here in North America, they are likely to be the top two players taken in the NHL Draft.
How is that "ruined"?
One other point - why is the MHL age limit 22-year-old and not 21 (technically 20) like most of the other top junior leagues throughout the world?
Thanks for any info.
But the argument below could be equated with football (soccer) here in the USA. All but of a handful of our top players leave America to compete in Europe (although at the junior level for the most part the American soccer programs seem to be doing a nice job of producing players).
I was also curious as to one post on here previously - someone mentioned Grigorenko and Yakupov being "ruined" as far as their careers are concerned. From what's being said here in North America, they are likely to be the top two players taken in the NHL Draft.
How is that "ruined"?
One other point - why is the MHL age limit 22-year-old and not 21 (technically 20) like most of the other top junior leagues throughout the world?
Thanks for any info.
what do you speak about?
I give you example and hope you will understand. What would you say if Gretzky or another great Canadian/American said 16 y player: "go tommorow to Europe/Asia, it is best for your development" and Canada/USA would make steps to get better national development programme?
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