Line Combos: L1 -A line in need of Augmentation?

[HockeyThoughts]

Yeah he does back check when he feels like it, but once he gets to the scene of the battle he plays like he just got his nails done, which basically makes him useless. If you're getting cycled to death in your own end on a 5 on 5, and there's one guy who categorically will not be battling for that puck, you're already at a massive disadvantage. Even a guy like Jeff Skinner would probably be embarrassed to play that way. Why does Kessel have to be so unusually soft?

How do you even substantiate statements like that?

Hey Stephen.. Your bias is showing! (and big time at that) Starting to sound like Interactive

 

[Kingstonian84*]

Yeah he does back check when he feels like it, but once he gets to the scene of the battle he plays like he just got his nails done, which basically makes him useless. If you're getting cycled to death in your own end on a 5 on 5, and there's one guy who categorically will not be battling for that puck, you're already at a massive disadvantage. Even a guy like Jeff Skinner would probably be embarrassed to play that way. Why does Kessel have to be so unusually soft?

That's just who Kessel is... he's a soft timid player who bails when it gets heated, I highly doubt he's going to change his ways.

This is why he needs to be better insulated with physical and better defensive players.

 

[The Promised Land]

Alternatively:

Komarov - Kadri - Kessel
Winnik - Bozak - Santorelli
JVR - Holland - Lupul
Panik - Smith - Clarkson

My ideal lines are close to yours, I want to keep the 2nd line in tact as well and with that in mind I think this is worth a shot:

Komarov-Bozak-Kessel
Winnik-Kadri-Santorelli
JVR-Holland-Lupul
Panik-Smith-Clarkson

 

[showtime8]

Yeah he does back check when he feels like it, but once he gets to the scene of the battle he plays like he just got his nails done, which basically makes him useless. If you're getting cycled to death in your own end on a 5 on 5, and there's one guy who categorically will not be battling for that puck, you're already at a massive disadvantage. Even a guy like Jeff Skinner would probably be embarrassed to play that way. Why does Kessel have to be so unusually soft?

You aren't allowed to say that about Kessel. Only that he scores.

The first line takes a lot of heat off of other lines.

Again, I've said it before. They are the highest scoring line in the league. They put up the most points. Why would Carlyle break up this line?

Kessel relies so much on others for his success. Like others have mentioned on here, he's not going to battle for the puck. I don't think there is another centreman on the team that would put the work in that Bozak would and is as skilled.

Hypothetically, IF the first line is being broken up, JVR would be the guy that would be moved and as Carlyle coaches, it would be a guy like Lupul to be moved up.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

My ideal lines are close to yours, I want to keep the 2nd line in tact as well and with that in mind I think this is worth a shot:

Komarov-Bozak-Kessel
Winnik-Kadri-Santorelli
JVR-Holland-Lupul
Panik-Smith-Clarkson

Just out curiosity why do u have a guy like winnik who can't score alot on the 2nd line yet you have JVR and Lupul who are 50-65 pt players playing on the 3rd?

 

[The Promised Land]

Just out curiosity why do u have a guy like winnik who can't score alot on the 2nd line yet you have JVR and Lupul who are 50-65 pt players playing on the 3rd?

Simply because as I said the 2nd line has been dynamite together and I wouldn't want to break them up. That trio has been the Leafs' best for the last little while.

And the 3rd line could be the 3rd line in name only, it doesn't mean they're necessarily going to get less ice time.

 

[Semantics]

he has two defensive errors [/B](aka: has cost the Leafs two goals this season) by my calculations. That's certainly not what I was expecting. I was prepared to dump all over Kessel this season and see him at the bottom of my list. Instead, he's almost at the top.

Is he just incredibly lucky? You tell me because his mistakes aren't costing the Leafs goals. He must be doing something right, or he must be the luckiest guy on earth.

You think spending 70% of their shifts hemmed in our own end isn't costing the team goals... I don't know how to respond to that

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The management is as beleaguered as fans are the way Bozaks two star wingers are floaters. They should call the agents and have him supply their teams list required from their LNTClauses.

Think that would get their attention? I think it would. If they need to be moved for the good of the team, then so be it.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I feel like JVR is just a lazy ass, he gets his goals by other people doing the work and him being in the vicinity of the net for the tap in. He never gets dirty in the corners, causes a turnover and sets someone else up its always bozak doing it or kessel carrying it down the ice. I would like to see Lupul/Komarov/Clarkson(even him, yes) take his spot and slot him down on the 3rd line, make him work for some points instead of just waiting for his linemates to do it for him, maybe Holland will rub off on him as well.

Edit: I am not saying he is incapable but I think he is spoiled right now and needs a reminder of how he needs to play hockey. He is also the lowest plus/minus among our forwards. He is often quite lazy receiving breakout passes along the boards and bails out on them or mishandles it, not sure if he is afraid of a dman pinching in on him or what but his game has been frustrating me this season despite his point totals.

He has become a lazy ass.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Just out curiosity why do u have a guy like winnik who can't score alot on the 2nd line yet you have JVR and Lupul who are 50-65 pt players playing on the 3rd?

You are putting too much into the labels second and third line. They are lines that would get about as much minutes, the difference is negligible. I also have to point out that Winnik is superb as a puck retriever on a scoring line, the days when teams had lines from a depth chart based on offensive talent is long gone.

Nowadays you build offense through at least three lines, and making sure that the lines are as balanced as possible. Defensive play and puck retrieval is a big part of that. Our first line is a bit of an exception.

 

[RLF]

He does in the playoffs, at least IMO. Right now he isn't in that desperation mode, I am okay with our 8 million dollar player skimping out a bit(maybe not this much) and staying healthy, he isn't paid to win a Selke either. I think we just need to get to the clutch games and he steps his game up, big time. Just sadly we haven't played many meaningful games during his tenure....at least not yet. I believe he will blow us away when(if) we become a consistent playoff team.

Since we have only made the playoffs once since Kessel got here...maybe he should be looking at regular season games as more meaningful instead of "skimping out a bit"

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Santa-Kadri-Winnik - The New KGM?

I am seeing a lot of similarities in the Kadri, Santa, Winnik line this year to the KGM line of 2010-11 season where all had career years.

Think this is the team's #2 line this year that is playing better than the #1 line 5v5. Just as KGM did in 2011-12.

They were not able to sustain this past that one season, but they were very good for that one year as Santorelli, Kadri, and Winnik have been.

We need a larger sample of games to see if this is sustainable, but did Carlyle catch lightening in a bottle like Wilson did in 2010-11 with a new KGM?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

The big difference here is Kadri >>>> Grabovski.

 

[pucci2001]

Since we have only made the playoffs once since Kessel got here...maybe he should be looking at regular season games as more meaningful instead of "skimping out a bit"

I agree with you but; if you think Kessel taking hits all season long will help us late in the season I think you are wrong, people LOVE to take runs at guys like Phil. It fires the crowd, their team up and in Toronto it makes it into the media. Everyone wants to get famous off that, we don't have the enforcers to fight everyone that would be taking runs at him either. I would rather see our big sturdy JVR do some of the dirty work on that line and allow Phil some time and space to make him look like an ever bigger star than he already does.

 

[AuGsY]

Komarov - Bozak - Kessel
Winnik - Kadri - santo
lupul - holland - jvr

Roll this as our top 9 with the minutes spread out fairly evenly and I think we will see a marked improvement defensively.

 

[613Leafer]

He has become a lazy ass.

The entire top line are. Look at the Dwight King goal from last night, perfect example. All our forwards attempted to exit the zone before we actually had solid puck possession, and then when it became clear LA had the puck again (deep in our zone mind you) they all just kinda floated back in as the other team scored.

This isnt an isolated incident either, we've been watching these guys play like this for YEARS. Shanny came in preaching accountability. Bozak/Kessel were both rewarded with LONGTERM contracts despite being floaters in the defensive zone, and rewarded with top ice time as well. If this team wants to actually preach accountability, they should be looking to trade and/or reduce icetime and/or bench these players if they keep playing like this.

I dont care if they put up points when the effort isnt there defensively to the point where it makes them fairly ineffective despite putting up points. Our top line is consistently one of our weakest lines 5 on 5, thats a problem.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Winnik can, Santo on L1 makes L2 the same a L1 presently. Weak on D.

Santorelli-Kadri-Kessel
JVR-Bozak-Winnik
Lupul-Holland-Clarkson
Kozun/Booth-Smith-Panik
?




And then obviously back to JVR-Bozak-Kessel on the primary powerplay, I would think.


Let's be honest, as much as I love JVR and Kessel on the rush, that line needs help at even strength. As a team it looks like the Leafs are making good strides towards playing a better defensive/possession game, but that top line is struggling mightily in that regard.

I understand keeping them together should the team need a quick goal, but one would think most of the time the Leafs would benefit from a better balanced lineup?

 

[thewave]

The entire top line are. Look at the Dwight King goal from last night, perfect example. All our forwards attempted to exit the zone before we actually had solid puck possession, and then when it became clear LA had the puck again (deep in our zone mind you) they all just kinda floated back in as the other team scored.

This isnt an isolated incident either, we've been watching these guys play like this for YEARS. Shanny came in preaching accountability. Bozak/Kessel were both rewarded with LONGTERM contracts despite being floaters in the defensive zone, and rewarded with top ice time as well. If this team wants to actually preach accountability, they should be looking to trade and/or reduce icetime and/or bench these players if they keep playing like this.

I dont care if they put up points when the effort isnt there defensively to the point where it makes them fairly ineffective despite putting up points. Our top line is consistently one of our weakest lines 5 on 5, thats a problem.

It is our primary problem right now. That line is absolutely horrendous. Think about it, our 4th line is better than our 1st defensively AINEC.

 

[613Leafer]

It is our primary problem right now. That line is absolutely horrendous. Think about it, our 4th line is better than our 1st defensively AINEC.

Which I wouldnt mind if this were a new thing, so arguably just a "low" point in the year-to-year highs/lows of players/lines/teams, but the XXX-Bozak-Kessel line has ALWAYS been horrendous defensively.

 

[The CyNick]

The armchair GM/coaches in here want drastic changes to a team that is 8-1-1.

Amazing!

 

[Commander Clueless]

The armchair GM/coaches in here want drastic changes to a team that is 8-1-1.

Amazing!

I don't know about drastic changes, just a different approach at even strength to prevent the team from having to scramble as much defensively.

But fair point - they are winning, so....maybe just give more ice time to Winnik-Kadri-Santorelli and Lupul-Holland-Clarkson?

 

[The CyNick]

I agree, JVR has a bad attitude most nights, I mean just looking at his body language when hes on the bench chewing on his mouthpiece screams "I don't give a crap" and yea he doesn't exactly put a solid effort on the ice either.

I disagree though about the goals, yes JVR gets a lot of tips/deflections but he also does have a really strong and powerful shot (when he decides to unleash it). The problem with JVR is he has a lot of skills but he just doesn't want it bad enough, let me put it to this way... if he wanted it bad enough he could be an elite player out there, he's got the size/shot/speed/net prescen etc to make things happen BUT he's more content just hot dogging it out there and like you said waiting for others to set things up.

what could he do with his mouthpiece on the bench to show you he's giving it his all?

 

[The CyNick]

I don't know about drastic changes, just a different approach at even strength to prevent the team from having to scramble as much defensively.

But fair point - they are winning, so....maybe just give more ice time to Winnik-Kadri-Santorelli and Lupul-Holland-Clarkson?

how about no changes and keep collecting points?

What most people miss in here is that with the other lines be effective, we don't need to run the 1st line into the ground. Over the long term that in itself will help their defensive numbers.

 

[thewave]

The armchair GM/coaches in here want drastic changes to a team that is 8-1-1.

Amazing!

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your weaknesses. The danger to any organization or person for that matter is to stop trying to improve. You describing the GM model. You know the old, We have majority of the market share. Things are fine, the losses will correct themselves, excuse this, excuse that an suddenly... But thank you for that, you're really something special. Enlightening really always bringing something interesting to the table.

 

[Commander Clueless]

how about no changes and keep collecting points?

What most people miss in here is that with the other lines be effective, we don't need to run the 1st line into the ground. Over the long term that in itself will help their defensive numbers.

I think people are worried (and not without reason) that our game can't hold up. A view that is reinforced by our collapse last season.

Even Randy doesn't seem happy.