Kris Letang vs Eric Desjardins

[Dennis Bonvie]

I would say both are borderline Hall of Famers.

Who do you think was the better player?

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[Moose Head]

At there peaks, I’d say they were pretty close. But I think Letang wins this with more high level seasons. He’s still very good imo, and is the same age as when Desjardins retired.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Really surprised by the voting so far.

Thought this would be closer.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think it probably deserves to be a little closer, even though I'm fairly sure the answer is Letang. I'm not sure it should be a blow out. Desjardins is an easy player to forget too, relative to what he brought to the table.

 

[MadLuke]

I am not sure if it should be any closer, close but clearly a player is a possible scenario.

In this case, Letang simply seem to be doing it for a longer time.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm also surprised this is so one-sided (currently 12-2).

Desjardins was a great defenseman, and he's become underrated over time. His biggest strength was his hockey sense - he was a smart, responsible, disciplined player. He was calm under pressure and he seemed to consistently make good decisions on the ice. He was well-rounded, so he doesn't have any obvious talent that made him memorable (ie blinding speed, big hitter, heavy slapshot, etc). Letang was more skilled, but has a lower hockey IQ and was more likely to take a dumb penalty.

Desjardins logged huge minutes on some very good teams. (From 1998 to 2002, he was 5th among defensemen in total ice time - 9th at ES, 12th on the powerplay, and 25th on the PK). Over that span, Philadelphia was the #2 team in the eastern conference. (Letang logged lots of minutes too - but keep in mind we don't have any hard data for Desjardins prior to age 28).

I was going to make a comment about how Letang did better in terms of Norris/all-star voting, but it's only because he's flashier. But it's closer than I thought. Both were 2nd team all-stars twice. Letang placed 3rd and 4th in Norris voting, Desjardins placed 4th and 5th. (Letang does have more years in the 6th-10th place range - he's ahead 6-3).

Letang is well known because of his role on the Crosby/Malkin Pens. But I think his role gets exaggerated somewhat. Yes, he was excellent in 2016 (he was my pick for the Conn Smythe). But they won in 2017 despite him missing the entire playoff run. And 2009 doesn't do much for me - he won a Cup, but he was the #5 defenseman by ice time (#6 at ES). Desjardins was the #1 defenseman on a Stanley Cup winner (1993) and was excellent in 1995 (ECF loss).

Maybe some people are giving Letang more leeway because he was injured a lot (and I realize that impacts his rankings for the Norris trophy etc). Five more games and he likely takes the 2013 Norris from Subban. True - but if Desjardins doesn't miss any time, he likely finishes runner-up (to MacInnis) for the 1999 Norris.

Looking at the R-ON/OFF data (which I'm only doing after having written everything else, just as a sanity check) - Desjarins is ahead of Letang in both the regular season and playoffs. Admittedly by small amounts, likely within any reasonable margin for error, but it supports the notion that they're close (at least at ES - it seems fairly obvious Letang contributed more on the PP and Desjardins on the PK).

This was a longer response than I intended. I definitely see the argument for Letang, especially if the question is "better player" (which implicitly gives some allowance for injuries). Letang can be more of a gamebreaker, but Desjardins is a calming force on a top defense pair. It's often a cop out answer, but I'd pick "too close to call" if that were an option.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

desjardins was fantastic. people will disagree but through the second half of the '90s he was the clear number four dman of his generation, behind pronger, lidstrom, and blake, but before niedermayer became niedermayer and chara was anything. (this assumes that leetch is of the previous generation, which we can argue about methodologically, but let’s not.)

i liken it to pietrangelo when he was making second all-star teams. behind the norris guys, karlsson, weber, doughty, keith, but consistently in the mix at the top of the next tier.

to me, peak desjardins impacted the game more than peak letang, although letang was more of a gamebreaker, as HO nicely puts it. i would take pietrangelo over letang, so i guess i take rico over him too.

 

[Michael Farkas]

This is all said in good humor...

I have other quests to pursue in life and leisure time, but the "Letang lacks hockey sense" thing is one that maybe I'll take a crack at dispelling one day (but how can you?). I'm extremely sensitive to hockey sense concerns, especially for defensemen...in fact, my sensitivity to hockey sense concerns gets me in trouble with other scouts because I dismiss players that are technically and athletically gifted to an unsavory degree (in their opinion)...I don't know if I'm missing it, or if it's just a thing that's "common knowledge" out there, so everyone is in on it...but I don't think he's dumb. It's not 10/10 by any means. But I think he's at least above average in that department...at least.

I don't know if the fact that I've seen 98+% of his shifts in the NHL has over-scouted it out of me or what...but man...and it's a lot of Penguins fans too...I think it's just everyone but me at this point haha

It's always tough because no matter what, folks aren't really that interested in changing their mind about stuff...so if you do clips, people go "well, yeah, that's his good shifts"...then if you go shift by shift of entire games, people go, "well, those were his good games" - so you can't win for losin'...but the career arc for a dumb player is usually pretty straightforward because they don't have the ability adapt and as their athleticism falls away, so does their game...

Phaneuf's first three years, ages 20-22...3x top-8 in Norris voting...never ever again the rest of his career. Was a cap dump by 30, out of the league by 32 or whatever it was.

Seth Jones...early 20's Norris interest...a few years later, he's in cap dump territory.

Letang did get a sniff in his early mid 20's, but then also all through the rest of his career. With Karlsson in Pittsburgh, he was asked to be more of a shutdown guy and despite being near Ryan Graves way too much, that's what he's done. He still produces (though, buoying by getting six assists in 12 seconds the other night), but he wasn't top PP for the majority of this season even. And frankly, he doesn't really have the technicals of some of those other guys. He doesn't have a good shot, he struggles to hit moving pucks, he requires considerable speed differential to beat guys in one on one situations usually...which isn't to say he's untalented, he definitely is...but Seth Jones has these technical skills, in some cases, better skills...and he's a mess.

I don't know if this thread was going to go anywhere and I just messed it up, but uhhh...I don't know, send me a bill I guess...

 

[The Panther]

It's pretty close, in my view. (I didn't vote.) Desjardins was more like the 'model' defenceman you'd ideally like to have six of, and there's a reason every team he played for was great. On the other hand, Letang has the near-elite offensive skill for a Dman that nearly every Cup-winner needs.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

They may be close in the regular season, but Letang opens up the gap in the postseason

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

They may be close in the regular season, but Letang opens up the gap in the postseason

Letang an even in plus/minus in the playoffs.

Desjardins a +16.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Really surprised by the voting so far.

Thought this would be closer.

Nope. For me this goes beyond stats. I have letang a head of Desjardins in overall play

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

They may be close in the regular season, but Letang opens up the gap in the postseason

does he though?

desjardins has more playoff games, almost as many points while being an excellent defender, and had one of the most iconic playoff games a dman has had in my lifetime, a game that shifted the momentum of a stanley cup finals. what a clutch clutch performance.



in the end, both guys were the number one dman on one cup winner.

i will concede, though, that letang should have won the conn smythe, although that was a weak crop. still, desjardins never had a run that good, though their overall bodies of work in the playoffs are pretty even i’d say.

 

[JianYang]

I'm not overly surprised by the vote count so far.

Letang's greatness is more in your face and obvious. Desjardins was more understated.

Quiet efficiency is how I remember desjardins. You could put him up against the league's top players and he would routinely hold his end of the bargain. Aside from having a good sense for the game, I don't think there is one physical attribute that stands out as "elite" for desjardins, but he did so many things consistently well.

I think this is a real tough comparison because although they had simular impacts on their respective teams, I find them to be quite different hockey players.

 

[MXD]

Desjardins was the better player and Letang is the better HHOF candidate.

 

[The Panther]

Letang an even in plus/minus in the playoffs.

Desjardins a +16.

I like Desjardins too, but are 16 plus/minus points even statistically significant over a large sample?

I think the more relevant question to their respective plus/minuses (which are fairly close) is: Did Letang face the other teams' best forwards as consistently as Desjardins did? I'm not sure what the answer is. Obviously, Letang was a top player with big minutes, but was his deployment specifically to match the other teams' top guys? I don't honestly remember.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I like Desjardins too, but are 16 plus/minus points even statistically significant over a large sample?

I think the more relevant question to their respective plus/minuses (which are fairly close) is: Did Letang face the other teams' best forwards as consistently as Desjardins did? I'm not sure what the answer is. Obviously, Letang was a top player with big minutes, but was his deployment specifically to match the other teams' top guys? I don't honestly remember.

I was just responding to a post stating Letang was much better in the post season than Desjardins.

Both players played for very good teams as top pair defensemen, so the plus/minus comparison seems applicable here.

 

[MadLuke]

Kris Letang - Opposition - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

Letang most minutes against forwards in 2016:

Pavelski-Thornton
Kucherov-Johnson
Ovechkin-Oshie-Backstrom
Zuccarello-Kreider-

When you play so much it could just be natural to end up with the forward that play the most the other side show up and not that specially in a mission, but his most common opposition was the first line.

 

[Hobnobs]

This was a close one for me but in the end I chose Desjardins as I think he was better at defense while providing more or less the same offense while being more relied upon for his weaker teams.

Yes, habs and flyers were weaker than peak Pens.

 

[Dale53130]

I changed my vote. I initially went with Letang, because I think he'll have a better shot at the HOF. Having said that, I think Desjardins was a better player, and if I had my own team, I'd take him over Letang mostly because I think Desjardins is more of the type of player who could play any kind of system effectively. It still behooves me that the Habs traded him away.

I also think of Desjardins as being a stabilizer on defense; and I don't place too many defenseman in that specific category. I'd argue that he was a more significant piece to those Flyers' teams than LeClair.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Man, this is a tough one. Gun to my head I pick Desjardins on my team.

 

[VanIslander]

I love this comparison because both were important, hard working but less DEFENSEmen than dozens of their contemporaries.

Neither should ever be in HHOF consideration. If there are hockey gods.

 

[DRW895]

Kris Letang - Opposition - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

Letang most minutes against forwards in 2016:

Pavelski-Thornton
Kucherov-Johnson
Ovechkin-Oshie-Backstrom
Zuccarello-Kreider-

When you play so much it could just be natural to end up with the forward that play the most the other side show up and not that specially in a mission, but his most common opposition was the first line.

It was his peak. Not his ordinary performance. What about Desjardins in 1993? 1997?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

i liken it to pietrangelo when he was making second all-star teams. behind the norris guys, karlsson, weber, doughty, keith, but consistently in the mix at the top of the next tier.

Good analogy - Pietrangelo is a very good comparison (both stylistically, and in terms of how he ranks league wide).

I have other quests to pursue in life and leisure time, but the "Letang lacks hockey sense" thing is one that maybe I'll take a crack at dispelling one day (but how can you?)

Just to clarify, I didn't say (and I don't think) that Letang lacks hockey sense. Just that his hockey sense isn't as good as Desjardin, who I would rank very high in terms of hockey IQ.

I'm not overly surprised by the vote count so far.

Letang's greatness is more in your face and obvious. Desjardins was more understated.

Quiet efficiency is how I remember desjardins. You could put him up against the league's top players and he would routinely hold his end of the bargain. Aside from having a good sense for the game, I don't think there is one physical attribute that stands out as "elite" for desjardins, but he did so many things consistently well.

I think this is a real tough comparison because although they had simular impacts on their respective teams, I find them to be quite different hockey players.

I agree with all of this.

 

[MadLuke]

It was his peak. Not his ordinary performance. What about Desjardins in 1993? 1997?

Not sure if the public data would exist for Desjardins era.

Letang, most faced forward during the playoff in minutes at 5v5:
2011:
St. Louis-Stamkos-Gagne

2012:
Giroux-Hartnell-Couturier

2013:
Tavares-Boyes-Bailey
Marchand-Bergeron-Jagr

2018:
Kuznetsov-Ovechkin
Giroux-Voracek-Raffl

I am not sure it is debated Letang had a clean number one role on the pens during his long prime, big minutes, facing the best lines, first unit pp (but not always first unit PK like some others).

Some of the time the competition for the role of having to play the best was thin and it does not necessarily mean that much by itself in that context, but he was not a sheltered easier minute players.

Prime Desjardins has well.