Kris Letang - Is he worth his new contract?

[Dipsy Doodle]

Conversely, those saying he is a top defender in this league are basing it one a Norris Trophy nomination in a lockout shortened season. Letang has the skills, that's unquestionable, but he's also shown plenty of questionable choices/poor hockey IQ since he entered the league, as he did prior to these last four games.

Does Letang have the potential to play like this all the time? I don't see why not. Will he? History suggests otherwise. I'm fine with people being (cautiously) optimistic, but four games just isn't enough IMO to say this is how he will stay, which is what a lot of people are acting like.

They're likely basing it on his performance each of the last 3 years, where he's been the only defenseman other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting. That's about as reliable a testament to value as you'll find for a 27 year old defenseman.

With 6 starting defensemen per team, and 30 teams in the league, only thinking of 6 dmen you would rather build around him does make him pretty high on the list.

Chara would be on this list if not for his age. But there is:

Weber
Suter
Keith
Doughty
Pietrangelo
Subban
OEL
Karlsson

and arguably McDonagh, although I think Letang at his best is better than McDonagh at his. Of course it works the other way as well.

That's 8 or 9 defensemen I would take before Letang at this point in his career. Can you think of any others you would take before Letang when he's playing at his best?

And if people have watched this series, they've certainly seen how bad he can look at his worst. Guy's getting turnstyled every second play.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I am going out on a limb here and saying that Gonchar was a damn good defender in 2009.

Letang played with Eaton as a partner most of the year, and when Gonch was out he played with Orpik. I can't ever recall Letang playing any significant minutes with Gonch.

 

[stardog]

Well being paired with a better defenseman always makes a player look better (like Scuderi with Doughty), that's not exactly a secret. That said, it's not like Letang has been paired with bad defensemen all the time and thus making bad play excusable. You can't just say it's the other guys fault when the only constant is Letang.

Did you seriously just insinuate that the only constant as far as bad play by our defensemen when paired with Kris Letang was Kris Letang?

If not I am not all that certain what the point is that you are making? Because bad play is not limited to one person or one partner so Im not to sure why you would bring up Letang being a constant.

The board for the most part knows my feelings regarding Letang and his contract. I was all for it. And after this season I am still all for it.
I have stated time and time again my reasons and I still believe in them. But we are giving Paul Martin FAR to much credit for Letangs recent play as if he isn't capable of this on his own. Or as if Martin is infallible. Or have we forgotten how terrible Orpik has looked the past two regular seasons while playing with Martin?
Sure, good players can insulate others and make them seem better than they are. But it isn't like Letang is some average to fringe player in this league who needs...Paul Martin I suppose is the argument now...to make him look better than he is. This isn't a situation remotely NEAR Doughty making Scuds look better as Scuderi is nowhere NEAR the caliber of player that Letang is at this point.

So great. He had a bad season (when he played). I am certainly not ready to change my opinion of him as an elite PMD in this league based on one injury filled campaign. Of course most of those who point to his poor play this season already held Tanger in low esteem so their opinion is what it is. And they're more than entitled to it.

The injury issue is the area of biggest concern for me. His play, is not. Before this season that started with a big injury and ended with a freaking stroke he had 2 consecutive campaigns where he looked like the player we all knew he could be.

I hardly see anybody changing their minds on him as he is one of the two most polarizing players on this team just as I am not willing to change my mind based upon the evidence of this season and the circumstances which surround it.

 

[stardog]

I don't disagree with any of this. But, for me, there really were two questions with Letang:

1. Will he play like he's worth that contract? Right now, he is. It's not even debatable.

2. Given their organizational assets and needs, is it best to be paying Letang that money or to have the assets he could get you? I've always thought it's the latter. That's not a knock on Letang.

That said, if he were a competent GM, there are things Shero COULD do to implement a proper 2C model AND keep Letang such that Sid and Geno aren't ******* in the playoffs unless they're playing together.

And this is a decent concern but one which is negated when you look at who is available in free agency for that amount, whether or not we would get them, and the biggest question mark: Do you trust that Shero would identify and then target these players. For all of those balls to fall our way would be a bigger gamble than Letang is IMO.

 

[stardog]

Yeah, I mean, Letang might technically be our franchise defenseman, but he's not very high on my list of guys I'd build a defense around. Give me Weber, Suter, Keith, Pietrangelo, Doughty, and Subban ahead of him... Just off the top of my head.

Great. And so would pretty much every other team in the entire league. Problem is that none of those players are even remotely available to us.

Me personally I would wish for a helluva lot of other players on this team as well. Probably 15 of them or so. But that isn't very realistic either. Simply because you list the absolute best defensemen in our league as the players you would like to build around, doesn't diminish the value of Letang in the slightest.
And furthermore, it accents his value to THIS franchise simply because up until this season, he WAS listed amongst those names you've given by many. And while none of those names are realistically available to ANY team other than the ones which they play for, Letang IS available to THIS team. It only underscores the importance of keeping those elite kind of players once you have them (let alone when you draft them).

People may certainly feel as if his contract is far to high but halfway through his contract you are going to see UFA defensemen who aren't near the caliber of player that Letang has shown to be get far more money than Letang will be getting. Of course the question is if he will return to his dominant form from the past 3 seasons or the Letang from this current season.

 

[KIRK]

And this is a decent concern but one which is negated when you look at who is available in free agency for that amount, whether or not we would get them, and the biggest question mark: Do you trust that Shero would identify and then target these players. For all of those balls to fall our way would be a bigger gamble than Letang is IMO.

I don't disagree with that NOW.

Last summer, given what you could've gotten in the trade and as part of the trade, I think it's a different story.

And, I think it likely will be a different story within 24 months.

Look, I kind of take a fluid look to these things. How expendable a player is, for me, is a function of his contribution, his role, his cost, the alternatives, and what you can get for him.

I'd listen on Letang always, but I probably would be more hesitant now than last summer or next summer to pull the trigger.

Personally, right now, I think you keep Letang for now and resign Niskanen.

Move Scuderi and Dupuis at all costs. Resign Goc and Stemps for what Sutter probably will cost. Keep your Beau-Goc-Stemps third line and groom Beau to replace Kunitz.

I think you listen hard and openly on Neal. I think Sutter is pricing himself out and has proven himself to be a legit 2C in the playoffs when you give him some help. And, I think these two guys could get you guys who genuinely do things to help Sid and Geno get to THEIR games.

Let all the guys over 30 walk.

Personally, I like our top two defensive pairings. I don't see one of the young guys being ready to supplant next year . . . while I always listen on anyone not named Sid or Geno, my gut says you move Letang in two years.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I have nothing personal against Letang, so my view on the guy isn't "hate" or something like that. I think he's a fine player when he's on his game, I just think there are too many flaws--glaring ones--and he's not great consistently enough to warrant this team spending that much on a guy when our bottom six is in shambles, and our two generational talents STILL don't have ideal wingers. Especially when you see how we play without Letang, and how much we don't miss him. Niskanen's maturation and development into a very solid d-man who can produce well enough is like a neon sign for Shero. Move Letang for pieces to fix the rest of this hockey team. Niskanen won't be as flashy as Letang, and he probably won't match his potential point totals, but he is far better on the power play and the rest of his game isn't enough of a drop off to warrant keeping Letang at the cost of sacrificing so many other areas.

Just my personal opinion. Felt the same way about Staal. Heck of a player, but a perfect bargaining chip for Shero to use to fix issues that have plagued this team for his entire tenure here. If he can figure out a way to find good, long term wingers for Sid and Geno, as well as build a bottom six that's tough to play against (physical, fast, tough) without moving Letang, I'm all for it. I just don't think that's possible.

Let's just hope Shero smartens up, grows a sack, and does what he needs to do in order to finally solve the problems around here, not just throw band-aids on 'em like usual.

 

[KIRK]

I have nothing personal against Letang, so my view on the guy isn't "hate" or something like that. I think he's a fine player when he's on his game, I just think there are too many flaws--glaring ones--and he's not great consistently enough to warrant this team spending that much on a guy when our bottom six is in shambles, and our two generational talents STILL don't have ideal wingers. Especially when you see how we play without Letang, and how much we don't miss him. Niskanen's maturation and development into a very solid d-man who can produce well enough is like a neon sign for Shero. Move Letang for pieces to fix the rest of this hockey team. Niskanen won't be as flashy as Letang, and he probably won't match his potential point totals, but he is far better on the power play and the rest of his game isn't enough of a drop off to warrant keeping Letang at the cost of sacrificing so many other areas.

Just my personal opinion. Felt the same way about Staal. Heck of a player, but a perfect bargaining chip for Shero to use to fix issues that have plagued this team for his entire tenure here. If he can figure out a way to find good, long term wingers for Sid and Geno, as well as build a bottom six that's tough to play against (physical, fast, tough) without moving Letang, I'm all for it. I just don't think that's possible.

Let's just hope Shero smartens up, grows a sack, and does what he needs to do in order to finally solve the problems around here, not just throw band-aids on 'em like usual.

I'm with you, and that's even if Letang isn't as flawed as you suggest. I'd still look to move Sutter or Neal (Sutter because you can have Goc and Stemps for a 3rd line for what he'd cost and Neal because he's a leech who does nothing to help make Malkin get to his game when playing with Geno and doesn't do the things you need a 5M player to do when he isn't) to fix those issues before I look to move Letang, but IMO this summer Shero needs to dump Scuds and Dupuis and willingly listen on Sutter, Neal, and Letang (although, while I think the Pens benefit from moving the two forwards in the right deals, I'd be loathe to move Letang this summer for reasons stated above).

That said, what will happen . . . lots of guys resigned, no trades, definitely no risks taken, and band-aids for Sid and Geno again, so the only way they'll be able to do **** in the playoffs next year is with each other . . . just like this year. ****, just once, wouldn't it be nice to see Sid and Geno, both with two complementary wingers who help them get to their games. It's the one advantage that the Pens have over everyone. Best player in hockey centering best line in hockey followed by best player in hockey centering best line in hockey. That's what the Pens COULD have. And, every ******* year, Shero doesn't just fail to leverage that advantage. He goes out of his way to neutralize it (and whatever he fails to neutralize, Bylsma finishes off).

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'm with you, and that's even if Letang isn't as flawed as you suggest. I'd still look to move Sutter or Neal (Sutter because you can have Goc and Stemps for a 3rd line for what he'd cost and Neal because he's a leech who does nothing to help make Malkin get to his game when playing with Geno and doesn't do the things you need a 5M player to do when he isn't) to fix those issues before I look to move Letang, but IMO this summer Shero needs to dump Scuds and Dupuis and willingly listen on Sutter, Neal, and Letang (although, while I think the Pens benefit from moving the two forwards in the right deals, I'd be loathe to move Letang this summer for reasons stated above).

That said, what will happen . . . lots of guys resigned, no trades, definitely no risks taken, and band-aids for Sid and Geno again, so the only way they'll be able to do **** in the playoffs next year is with each other . . . just like this year. ****, just once, wouldn't it be nice to see Sid and Geno, both with two complementary wingers who help them get to their games. It's the one advantage that the Pens have over everyone. Best player in hockey centering best line in hockey followed by best player in hockey centering best line in hockey. That's what the Pens COULD have. And, every ******* year, Shero doesn't just fail to leverage that advantage. He goes out of his way to neutralize it (and whatever he fails to neutralize, Bylsma finishes off).

I've been a huge Neal fan, and was before he was even a Penguin. That being said, it's pretty unacceptable how he's developed into nothing more than a floater when he's not scoring--which is a lot in the past few months. I would still probably stick it out with Neal, and hope that a real coach can get him to eliminate the idiotic play and be more engaging as a player. He used to be a really good forechecker, and he used to be a pretty good hitter as well. No idea where that went or why it's completely left his game, but it's concerning and a huge problem. My issue/worry with moving Neal is that he is a guy we're desperately short on. I don't see how trading a winger for another winger is going to help much, especially considering what he's likely to bring back. Trading from a position of weakness to address said weakness doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If he brings back Kane, we've upgraded a winger but we're still in dire need of at least one more.

Kunitz is on the decline (regular season stats be damned, he's been just as awful as Neal, if not worse), his physical game is practically nonexistent anymore, and he's getting to the point in age where he's only going to get precipitously worse. He needs replacing as well. Sid needs his "Neal," a guy who is going to be around for the next decade, and is going to be a stud winger for us.

If we move Neal, we need a RW for Geno, while still needing at least one winger for Sid. I like Bennett as Geno's LW next season, and Kunitz as a third wheel on Sid's line is fine, but I don't want Kunitz to be a guy we heavily lean on anymore.

I do agree we need to find a way to give Scuds the Michalek treatment. It's just not working here, for whatever reason. Be it age, or the system, or the pairings, Scuds was a big time bust. Just another example of Shero living in the past and not wanting to evolve, and stay current with things. The "09 Syndrome" that this organization suffers from has been a catastrophic failure. "It worked once, it's gotta be the only way to do it! Ignore the factors that lead to that Cup, just keep square-pegging our way to another one!" Mediocrity, failure, and the wasting of Sid and Geno's primes ensue.

I think Dupuis can still be a good 3rd liner, though. His price tag is what bothers me. I could never really be upset with Dupuis, because night in and night out he gives it 110% and tries to do whatever is asked of him. It's not his fault this organization has been playing him out of position for God knows how long.

Christ, insomnia makes me ramble.

 

[DoobeeDoobeeDoo]

That contract is horrible, but I wish Tanger the very best.

 

[The Tang]

Did you seriously just insinuate that the only constant as far as bad play by our defensemen when paired with Kris Letang was Kris Letang?

If not I am not all that certain what the point is that you are making? Because bad play is not limited to one person or one partner so Im not to sure why you would bring up Letang being a constant

The bolded part is my point. People are saying that part of Letang's problem is no partner worked until Martin. Well, if multiple partners fail why is that on just the partners when Letang is the one having difficulties having the right guy? You can't just say it was Orpik/Nisk/Maatta/Scuderi/Bort/Despres/Engelland's fault in order to absolve Letang of bad play. If it's the one player having the issues finding linemates, why is it the linemates fault?

 

[stardog]

The bolded part is my point. People are saying that part of Letang's problem is no partner worked until Martin. Well, if multiple partners fail why is that on just the partners when Letang is the one having difficulties having the right guy? You can't just say it was Orpik/Nisk/Maatta/Scuderi/Bort/Despres/Engelland's fault in order to absolve Letang of bad play. If it's the one player having the issues finding linemates, why is it the linemates fault?

And my point is the opposite. Why is it Letang when those very same parners have been shown to suck with frightening frequency whether they are paired with Letang or not?
For better parts of the last 3 years Orpik has been awful, as has Niskanen until this year. I don't think I even need to try to argue the point when it comes to Scuderi and Maatta's second half is nowhere near his first half.

I think you're putting way to much emphasis on the partner angle rather than simply look at the individual in question.

 

[The Tang]

And my point is the opposite. Why is it Letang when those very same parners have been shown to suck with frightening frequency whether they are paired with Letang or not?
For better parts of the last 3 years Orpik has been awful, as has Niskanen until this year. I don't think I even need to try to argue the point when it comes to Scuderi and Maatta's second half is nowhere near his first half.

I think you're putting way to much emphasis on the partner angle rather than simply look at the individual in question.

I think you're reading my comment too much as "it's Letang's fault." That's not my argument. I'm saying people shouldn't be blaming just the partner(s) when Letang plays bad; Letang is at fault also. The degree will vary sure, but its not 0% Letang and 100% partner or whatever lopsided percentage people want to attribute.

 

[Shady Machine]

And this is a decent concern but one which is negated when you look at who is available in free agency for that amount, whether or not we would get them, and the biggest question mark: Do you trust that Shero would identify and then target these players. For all of those balls to fall our way would be a bigger gamble than Letang is IMO.

We aren't trading Letang to sign free agents. We are trading him for assets that help the team more now (or at least that would be the idea). So I'm not really sure what you are getting at here.

 

[Shady Machine]

And my point is the opposite. Why is it Letang when those very same parners have been shown to suck with frightening frequency whether they are paired with Letang or not?
For better parts of the last 3 years Orpik has been awful, as has Niskanen until this year. I don't think I even need to try to argue the point when it comes to Scuderi and Maatta's second half is nowhere near his first half.

I think you're putting way to much emphasis on the partner angle rather than simply look at the individual in question.

Niskanen has been awful for the better part of 3 years? He has broken out this year, but certainly not awful prior to that.

 

[mpp9]

Niskanen has been awful for the better part of 3 years? He has broken out this year, but certainly now awful prior to that.

Yeah if I recall correctly in the Philly series, while Letang was committing ridiculous error after ridiculous penalty, Nisky was the only who could look at himself in the mirror after that series and say he did what he could. Coming back from injury as well.

Letang's been an idiot all on his own for stretches in the playoffs and regular season. But if he can keep playing the way he has so far this postseason, he'll be worth that contract and then some.

 

[JQR]

Niskanen has been awful for the better part of 3 years? He has broken out this year, but certainly now awful prior to that.

Agreed. Niskanen's "bad stretches" have only lasted for a few games at a time from what I can recall. I don't recall too many of them, and certainly nothing as noticeable as when Letang craps out or Martin pre-2012.

 

[themethod7]

That contract is horrible, but I wish Tanger the very best.

For the last time (ok probably not), STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS.

This is the new norm. The new CBA did away with backdiving 10+ year contracts, you can't fudge the numbers anymore to lower a guy's cap hit by millions. Shea Weber's cap hit over the next five years is $7.8 million, despite being paid $14 million the first three years and $12 the following two; his cap hit is $5-6 million lower than his actual salary. Marian Hossa has 4 years at the end of his contract making $1 million a year, dropping his cap hit to $5.2 million from a $7.9 million salary. Shero didn't have that option! If we still lived in that world, no doubt Letang would have been locked up for an additional 2-4 years making drastically less at the tail end of it. Keep the money the same ($58 million) but front load it a bit and spread it over 10 years instead of 8 and his cap hit drops to less than $6 million! Or maybe they tack on 4 years @ $2.9 AAV (4, 3, 3, 1.6 sounds reasonable) now he's signing a $69.6 million, 12 year contract with a cap hit of $5.8 million - how cute.

Again, if all you look at is Letang's cap hit compared to all these old contracts, you're doing it wrong - STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS.

MacDonald got $5 million. Niskanen will get that much if not more. Lord knows what Subban will make on his next one. That's the way things are for the next decade, and in a few years (especially if he keeps up his recent play), Letang will look like a ****ing bargain. STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS!!!

 

[Shady Machine]

Time will methodman.

I agree with you to an extent, but I think some will be surprised that there won't be a huge jump in cap hits. Geno took a fair amount less (looks like about $10million total over 8 years less), from a pure dollars standpoint, on his deal than Sid. He had the opportunity to shoot for an 11mil cap hit which would have set the new standard. He didn't do that, so I would guess others will follow suit. Toews and Kane will be 9-9.5 million guys. They could command more, if they wanted, but I don't see it happening. It's just the culture of hockey IMO.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

For the last time (ok probably not), STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS.

This is the new norm. The new CBA did away with backdiving 10+ year contracts, you can't fudge the numbers anymore to lower a guy's cap hit by millions. Shea Weber's cap hit over the next five years is $7.8 million, despite being paid $14 million the first three years and $12 the following two; his cap hit is $5-6 million lower than his actual salary. Marian Hossa has 4 years at the end of his contract making $1 million a year, dropping his cap hit to $5.2 million from a $7.9 million salary. Shero didn't have that option! If we still lived in that world, no doubt Letang would have been locked up for an additional 2-4 years making drastically less at the tail end of it. Keep the money the same ($58 million) but front load it a bit and spread it over 10 years instead of 8 and his cap hit drops to less than $6 million! Or maybe they tack on 4 years @ $2.9 AAV (4, 3, 3, 1.6 sounds reasonable) now he's signing a $69.6 million, 12 year contract with a cap hit of $5.8 million - how cute.

Again, if all you look at is Letang's cap hit compared to all these old contracts, you're doing it wrong - STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS.

MacDonald got $5 million. Niskanen will get that much if not more. Lord knows what Subban will make on his next one. That's the way things are for the next decade, and in a few years (especially if he keeps up his recent play), Letang will look like a ****ing bargain. STOP COMPARING OLD CONTRACTS TO NEW CONTRACTS!!!

That's just how HF rolls.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Niskanen has been awful for the better part of 3 years? He has broken out this year, but certainly not awful prior to that.

Yeah if I recall correctly in the Philly series, while Letang was committing ridiculous error after ridiculous penalty, Nisky was the only who could look at himself in the mirror after that series and say he did what he could. Coming back from injury as well.

Letang's been an idiot all on his own for stretches in the playoffs and regular season. But if he can keep playing the way he has so far this postseason, he'll be worth that contract and then some.

Agreed. Niskanen's "bad stretches" have only lasted for a few games at a time from what I can recall. I don't recall too many of them, and certainly nothing as noticeable as when Letang craps out or Martin pre-2012.

This is revisionist history. Niskanen was terrible and the board made sure to voice it. The only person who didn't want Niskanen traded for a 2nd or Setoguchi was RRP.

 

[Vyruz Reaper]

That's just how HF Trolls.

Fixed

 

[mpp9]

This is revisionist history. Niskanen was terrible and the board made sure to voice it. The only person who didn't want Niskanen traded for a 2nd or Setoguchi was RRP.

No it isn't. Nisky wasn't anywhere near as bad as other D-men in that series. That's just fact. We're not talking about roster management.

 

[JQR]

This is revisionist history. Niskanen was terrible and the board made sure to voice it. The only person who didn't want Niskanen traded for a 2nd or Setoguchi was RRP.

Could be. That's just how I remember it. I'm sure I've posted gripes about the guy on here in the past, I just don't recall any of them being important enough to stay in my memory. I can easily recall instances where Orpik, Martin, and Letang have played like garbage for long swaths of time, however.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

No it isn't. Nisky wasn't anywhere near as bad as other D-men in that series. That's just fact. We're not talking about roster management.

It's not a fact. The only defensemen Niskanen was better than were Martin and Michalek, and they were out of this world ass in that series. People were actually happy to see Engelland on the ice - that's how bad the defensemen were. Niskanen got eaten alive on the forecheck, wasn't skating the puck out, wasn't physical, and was hardly trusted with big minutes in the series.

In a span of 9 months Niskanen went from being the "odd man out" of an "already crowded" defensive core to the 6 million dollar man. The breakout season has been great but you're retroactively allotting praise on good play that didn't happen.