Khabib vs Usman - P4P

[Taytro]

I want to know everyone's opinion on Usman being named the #1 Pound for Pound fighter. The knock on Khabib for him not being the P4P king at the time or the GOAT is that he didnt defend the belt enough or against good enough competition, meanwhile Usman is in a similar spot and being praised.

Usman currently has 4 title defenses, 2x Masvidal, Covington, and Burns. Khabib had 3 against Poirier, Gaethje, and McGregor. They each defended the belt successfully vs 3 different opponents and both undefeated in UFC. My opinion is that Khabib was more dominant in his wins, Usmans have been back and forth (particularly Covington and Burns).

So why was there criticism on Khabib, and praise on Usman when they were essentially in identical positions.

I'll also add on to it that I don't like them separating men's and women's P4P becuase Nunes and Shevchenko are clearly the P4P gods in UFC.

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[MaxV]

I think the difference is the world-wide popularity not the P4P ranking. That brings on more scrutiny.

Khabib became a HUGE name after Conor fight, Usman is still only known among MMA fans.

 

[Moncherry]

I'll also add on to it that I don't like them separating men's and women's P4P becuase Nunes and Shevchenko are clearly the P4P gods in UFC.

Not a chance. They fight in two of the thinnest divisions in the UFC. Not even remotely comparable to the competition in pretty much every one of the men's divisions.

 

[Perennial]

I want to know everyone's opinion on Usman being named the #1 Pound for Pound fighter. The knock on Khabib for him not being the P4P king at the time or the GOAT is that he didnt defend the belt enough or against good enough competition, meanwhile Usman is in a similar spot and being praised.

Usman currently has 4 title defenses, 2x Masvidal, Covington, and Burns. Khabib had 3 against Poirier, Gaethje, and McGregor. They each defended the belt successfully vs 3 different opponents and both undefeated in UFC. My opinion is that Khabib was more dominant in his wins, Usmans have been back and forth (particularly Covington and Burns).

So why was there criticism on Khabib, and praise on Usman when they were essentially in identical positions.

I'll also add on to it that I don't like them separating men's and women's P4P becuase Nunes and Shevchenko are clearly the P4P gods in UFC.

A pound-for-pound list is saying if all fighters were the same weight and fought each other, which fighter would be the betting favorite?

Nunes is a bantamweight, so to put her at the top of a P-4-P list, you're saying you would favour her in a match against fellow bantamweights Yan, Sterling, Dillashaw, Sandhagen, Aldo, etc.

 

[Taytro]

Not a chance. They fight in two of the thinnest divisions in the UFC. Not even remotely comparable to the competition in pretty much every one of the men's divisions.

Women's divisions have always be some of the weakest in the UFC. The divisions are newer and women's MMA didnt develop as quickly as men. Does that make what Nunes and Shevchenko have done any less amazing? They have proven to be far more dominate against their competition/challengers than any male fighter.

A pound-for-pound list is saying if all fighters were the same weight and fought each other, which fighter would be the betting favorite?

Nunes is a bantamweight, so to put her at the top of a P-4-P list, you're saying you would favour her in a match against fellow bantamweights Yan, Sterling, Dillashaw, Sandhagen, Aldo, etc.

I mean that's absolutely not what it means? That may be your interpretation of P4P but that's absolutely not what it means in my eyes.

A pound for pound list isn't saying who would win in a fight if they were the same weight, head to head. It's ranking accomplishments, successes, and how far ahead they are in their own divisions but comparing/ranking them against all the other divisions, rather than just their own. For example, Usman has defended his belt 4 times, 2 of those were very close. Amanda has defended 7 or 8 times and the only close one was Valentina. Valentina defended it 6 times, and none of them were close.

That's what P4P means to me, comparing how good/dominant every fighter in the UFC is against their own competition.

 

[Perennial]

Women's divisions have always be some of the weakest in the UFC. The divisions are newer and women's MMA didnt develop as quickly as men. Does that make what Nunes and Shevchenko have done any less amazing? They have proven to be far more dominate against their competition/challengers than any male fighter.



I mean that's absolutely not what it means? That may be your interpretation of P4P but that's absolutely not what it means in my eyes.

A pound for pound list isn't saying who would win in a fight if they were the same weight, head to head. It's ranking accomplishments, successes, and how far ahead they are in their own divisions but comparing/ranking them against all the other divisions, rather than just their own. For example, Usman has defended his belt 4 times, 2 of those were very close. Amanda has defended 7 or 8 times and the only close one was Valentina. Valentina defended it 6 times, and none of them were close.

That's what P4P means to me, comparing how good/dominant every fighter in the UFC is against their own competition.

The fact Nunes isn't listed with the men on the P-4-P list should tell you you're misinterpreting its meaning...

 

[Taytro]

The fact Nunes isn't listed with the men on the P-4-P list should tell you you're misinterpreting its meaning...

So in your mind, what the list is saying is if Stipe was 135/145, Stipe has the skills the beat Max Holloway and Petr Yan? Same thing with Jan Blachowicz?

Yeah, no chance. If that's the way the list is to be read, then it is the absolute trash list.

 

[Moncherry]

Women's divisions have always be some of the weakest in the UFC. The divisions are newer and women's MMA didnt develop as quickly as men. Does that make what Nunes and Shevchenko have done any less amazing?

Sorry, but yeah. Imagine if one of the men fought the male equivalent of Lauren Murphy to defend their title. That would be a joke.

They are not comparable. Valentina is one of my favourite fighters, but if she was included on a p4p list ahead of any of the 135, 145, or 155 male champions, that would be downright embarrassing. They are rightly separated.

 

[Perennial]

So in your mind, what the list is saying is if Stipe was 135/145, Stipe has the skills the beat Max Holloway and Petr Yan? Same thing with Jan Blachowicz?

Yeah, no chance. If that's the way the list is to be read, then it is the absolute trash list.

I didn't make the list...

 

[SuperScript29]

So why was there criticism on Khabib, and praise on Usman when they were essentially in identical positions.

I think the biggest difference is that Khabib retired in his prime while Usman is still going. To be the greatest, the length of being on top matters a lot.

 

[Taytro]

I didn't make the list...

I'm just saying based on who is on the list and their rank, your definition of what the P4P list represents just doesn't make sense. However it does make a bit more sense with the definition.

 

[dss97]

I personally feel that Izzy should be #1, I’m surprised that Volk is already leap frogging him.

I am personally more impressed with Usman’s resume as champion compared to Khabib, his only non-finish as champion was against Masvidal on 9 days notice (big stylistic change from Burns) and guys like Colby and Burns are guys I see as 170 champion material.

 

[member 51464]

I think the next fights for Poirier and Gaethj are going to go a long way toward impacting discussions like this. If both look dominant, it helps Khabib a ton. but if both lose decisively, and considering Conor's struggles, Khabib's reign and resume is suddenly looking a little thin imo.

 

[SuperScript29]

I think the next fights for Poirier and Gaethj are going to go a long way toward impacting discussions like this. If both look dominant, it helps Khabib a ton. but if both lose decisively, and considering Conor's struggles, Khabib's reign and resume is suddenly looking a little thin imo.

There's no question that Khabib is an amazing fighter, but he left a big question on the table when he retired, and regardless on how these two guys do, we're never going to know how he would have dealt with being on top nor will we know if he continues his dominance or someone eventually figures him out. We have enough data from the likes of GSP, Jones, Silva, and Fedor for me to consider them among the greatest ever. Usman is proving his case at the moment heading into his 5th title defense. Hard for me to put Khabib ahead of these guys on the all-time list even if was the most dominant performer.

 

[I am not exposed]

I personally feel that Izzy should be #1, I’m surprised that Volk is already leap frogging him.

I am personally more impressed with Usman’s resume as champion compared to Khabib, his only non-finish as champion was against Masvidal on 9 days notice (big stylistic change from Burns) and guys like Colby and Burns are guys I see as 170 champion material.

Izzy lost recently. So that would have an impact. He is obviously the standout in his division though.

Burns would be a very average 170 champion.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I think the next fights for Poirier and Gaethj are going to go a long way toward impacting discussions like this. If both look dominant, it helps Khabib a ton. but if both lose decisively, and considering Conor's struggles, Khabib's reign and resume is suddenly looking a little thin imo.

the Conor fight was a while ago, well before his hiatus and these two flights against Dustin Khabib went threw Gaethje like butter.

Khabib is definitely more dominate than Usman. I feel like the LW division is very competitive except when they fought Khabib.

If Charles O can go on a run of defenses, maybe that gets Khabib out of retirement.

 

[Perennial]

Khabib was also competing with Jon Jones for the P4P crown...

Since Jones hasn't fought in nearly 2 years, it's easier to justify sliding him down to #2 in favour of someone just as deserving

 

[Moncherry]

the Conor fight was a while ago, well before his hiatus and these two flights against Dustin Khabib went threw Gaethje like butter.

Khabib is definitely more dominate than Usman. I feel like the LW division is very competitive except when they fought Khabib.

If Charles O can go on a run of defenses, maybe that gets Khabib out of retirement.

Khabib is not coming out of retirement, and he actually directly addressed that whatever Oliveira does as champion doesn't matter to him.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Khabib is not coming out of retirement, and he actually directly addressed that whatever Oliveira does as champion doesn't matter to him.

time will tell. He’s still young

 

[pistolpete11]

GOAT and P4P are different conversations in my view. GOAT is an overall career assessment. P4P is a snap shot in time.

Where they rank in the GOAT list is tough to say considering Usman is still active. I'd put him behind Khabib because I think Khabib was more dominant, but Usman could go out there and beat Covington again, Edwards again, Burns again, Luque, etc. and he would easily leap frog Khabib IMO. He could also lose a bunch and drop out of the conversation completely.

For P4P, as has been mentioned, Khabib was fighting at a time when Jones was active. Whether he should have been ahead of Jones regardless is a different conversation, but in an Usman comparison, it doesn't really matter. For Usman, the question would be who deserves the #1 P4P ranking more than him? Jones hasn't fought in forever. Volkanovski only has a couple title defenses and many people think he lost to Max the second time. You can't ignore that Izzy lost even though it was outside of his weight class. Jan only has 1 title defense and won a vacant belt. Francis, Oliveira, Sterling, and Moreno just won the belt. I don't know if any non-champion has ever held the #1 P4P ranking so that knocks out Poirier, Stipe, Max, etc. I don't really see much of an argument for Usman not being #1 P4P, but there was at least an argument for Jones over Khabib at the time.