Line Combos: Kessel banged up options

[Mess]

Didnt you hear, Kessel is one of the fittest leafs. Top 3 in camp in... some test. It was all over twitter. That the coach said he was overweight and that most who saw picks of him wondered what the hell he had done over the summer is just wrong or something.

Unfortunately Leafs instituted drills designed to evaluate cardiovascular performance (measure VO2 Max, or maximum oxygen intake), like speed skating testing etc however weight training and building up core strength is another issue altogether.

I'm speaking from experience as I used to have no problem going for a 5k run and barely breathing heavy at the end when I got my Cardio up, but when I went to the doctor complaining of lower back pain the recommendation was to hit the gym and build up my core strength. Or in simple terms less kms and more crunches, and now no more lower back pain when I run.

Kessel seems to be having similar issues as he isn't banged up at all and that is why he continues to play, however his lack of core strength from lack of working out could be catching up to him and is now forcing him to take practices off (maintenance days ) and preferring to make game day skates optional as he rests his back.

Kessel's solution might not be rest but rather working out more to strengthen his core.

 

[ACC1224]

Unfortunately Leafs instituted drills designed to evaluate cardiovascular performance (measure VO2 Max, or maximum oxygen intake), like speed skating testing etc however weight training and building up core strength is another issue altogether.

I'm speaking from experience as I used to have no problem going for a 5k run and barely breathing heavy at the end when I got my Cardio up, but when I went to the doctor complaining of lower back pain the recommendation was to hit the gym and build up my core strength. Or in simple terms less kms and more crunches, and now no more lower back pain when I run.

Kessel seems to be having similar issues as he isn't banged up at all and that is why he continues to play, however his lack of core strength from lack of working out could be catching up to him and is now forcing him to take practices off (maintenance days ) and preferring to make game day skates optional as he rests his back.

Kessel's solution might not be rest but rather working out more to strengthen his core.

Are all the guys in the League with bad backs fat or just Kessel?

 

[silentbob37*]

Are all the guys in the League with bad backs fat or just Kessel?

First, you see where he said - Kessel seems to be having similar issues as he isn't banged up at all and that is why he continues to play, however his lack of core strength from lack of working out could be catching up to him and is now forcing him to take practices off (maintenance days ) and preferring to make game day skates optional as he rests his back.

Kessel's solution might not be rest but rather working out more to strengthen his core.

Second, who cares if other players have back issues? If your kid comes home with an F and he says "but 6 other kids got F's too" does that excuse his poor grade?

 

[Duke Silver]

First, you see where he said - Kessel seems to be having similar issues as he isn't banged up at all and that is why he continues to play, however his lack of core strength from lack of working out could be catching up to him and is now forcing him to take practices off (maintenance days ) and preferring to make game day skates optional as he rests his back.

Kessel's solution might not be rest but rather working out more to strengthen his core.

Baseless inferences, to which we've become accustomed from Mess.

Second, who cares if other players have back issues? If your kid comes home with an F and he says "but 6 other kids got F's too" does that excuse his poor grade?

Kessel has surprisingly taken a few big hits lately. Injuries happen throughout a season. That doesn't necessarily put the player at fault. Dumb analogy.

 

[Mess]

First, you see where he said - Kessel seems to be having similar issues as he isn't banged up at all and that is why he continues to play, however his lack of core strength from lack of working out could be catching up to him and is now forcing him to take practices off (maintenance days ) and preferring to make game day skates optional as he rests his back.

Kessel's solution might not be rest but rather working out more to strengthen his core.

Second, who cares if other players have back issues? If your kid comes home with an F and he says "but 6 other kids got F's too" does that excuse his poor grade?

Coach Carlyle hinted/implied similar earlier in the year.

“It’s part of their responsibility to play to a higher level,” said Carlyle of his No. 1 forward combo. Carlyle was speaking during a media scrum, where it had been pointed out that both Kessel and Bozak missed time at the conclusion of the pre-season with undisclosed lower body injuries.

Again, those ailments were the perfect chance for Carlyle to provide his best players with cover. Again, Carlyle wasn’t so amiable.

“There’s things they have to do, and it’s not always on the ice. There’s a program in place with our strength and conditioning guys,” Carlyle said of Kessel and Bozak. “When you’re injured, it doesn’t mean you have days off. You have injured days, but there is treatment and there are off-ice workouts that are to be adhered. We have to make sure they take (it) seriously.”

Kessel's issues seem to be dating back even in the preseason, and that does support this isn't a hockey injury at all that ails him. Carlyle sending him to his "strength and conditioning guys" seems to back that up.

 

[silentbob37*]

Baseless inferences, to which we've become accustomed from Mess.



Injuries happen throughout the season. That doesn't necessarily put the player at fault. Dumb analogy.

They aren't baseless. Do a google search, lots of stories, reports, rumors etc... about Kessel not being in great shape and/or not doing a tone of off-season working out. Even quotes from the man himself.

First, I dunno if anyone is "faulting" Kessel though I do find it funny that a month ago the notion that Kessel might start declining in his 30's was scoffed at by many because he was impervious to injury. Second, the analogy isn't that injury = a grade, its that because X numbers of players have back issues Kessel lack of working out absolutely can't be a contributing factor.

 

[Leafs87]

Hockey players, as with athletes playing in all sports, can pick up injuries without there being any actual physical contact.

Yeah really just look at lupul. They were saying he has a back issue which is pretty common without contact. Also kessel had been very consistent with health since he came here

 

[Northern Dancer]

Ever think thats partly because the "Kessel-lovers" refuse to acknowledge even the slightest flaw about him or his game, which makes some people overly defensive about their opinion?

I realize it works the other way as well.

Kessel is what he is, nothing you or I say is going to change anything so why do the bashers use EVERY thread on this Board to get their licks in? Why does every thread with the hint of Kessel's name bring out the same 5 or 6 posters with their same (in many cases wrong) views? Normal discussions never happen because threads always morph into the same sh** show. It really does get annoying. It's always the same 'usual suspects' involved !!!! You have 105 posts in the previous Kessel thread, we ALL know your view.

 

[Mystifo]

Kessel's issues seem to be dating back even in the preseason, and that does support this isn't a hockey injury at all that ails him. Carlyle sending him to his "strength and conditioning guys" seems to back that up.

Well assuming Kessel listens and does the regime one can hope that if what you say is true should clear up within time. That being said if he actually did injure something because of a hit and the weight lifting only inflames it then I guess we are going to see heads roll.

 

[silentbob37*]

Kessel is what he is, nothing you or I say is going to change anything so why do the bashers use EVERY thread on this Board to get their licks in? Why does every thread with the hint of Kessel's name bring out the same 5 or 6 posters with their same (in many cases wrong) views? Normal discussions never happen because threads always morph into the same sh** show. It really does get annoying. It's always the same 'usual suspects' involved !!!! You have 105 posts in the previous Kessel thread, we ALL know your view.

I could ask why every thread with the hint of Kessels name bring out the same 5-6 posts with their same (in all cases wrong) views of how amazing Kessel and how he has no flaws what so ever in his game.

Most "bashers" don't come on here and say nothing "he sucks, he is terrible, he is no good, he is fat" etc... Most (from what I've seen) have realistic criticisms normally based in reality. The reason they turn into **** shows is because people get defensive about their opinions.

I've tried to ask MANY times, given its unlikely the Leafs can add a Toews and a Keith type player while keeping this group together whats the point in keeping Kessel right now - and that question either gets ignored in favor of "Kessel vs kane" or morphed into "why do you think the Leafs can't win with Kessel".

I'm pretty sure everyone knows your view as well - I guess its time for you to stop posting now? You'll never mentino Kessel again?

 

[Northern Dancer]

I could ask why every thread with the hint of Kessels name bring out the same 5-6 posts with their same (in all cases wrong) views of how amazing Kessel and how he has no flaws what so ever in his game.

Most "bashers" don't come on here and say nothing "he sucks, he is terrible, he is no good, he is fat" etc... Most (from what I've seen) have realistic criticisms normally based in reality. The reason they turn into **** shows is because people get defensive about their opinions.

I've tried to ask MANY times, given its unlikely the Leafs can add a Toews and a Keith type player while keeping this group together whats the point in keeping Kessel right now - and that question either gets ignored in favor of "Kessel vs kane" or morphed into "why do you think the Leafs can't win with Kessel".

I'm pretty sure everyone knows your view as well - I guess its time for you to stop posting now? You'll never mentino Kessel again?

LMFAO, great response.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I could ask why every thread with the hint of Kessels name bring out the same 5-6 posts with their same (in all cases wrong) views of how amazing Kessel and how he has no flaws what so ever in his game.

I don't think I've ever seen this opinion anywhere, let alone on this board. Kind of hard to take you seriously when you write things like that.

 

[Mess]

Well assuming Kessel listens and does the regime one can hope that if what you say is true should clear up within time. That being said if he actually did injure something because of a hit and the weight lifting only inflames it then I guess we are going to see heads roll.

You can see the catch 22 here. .

Kessel seems to have a bad lower back and wants to take time off resting it between games, but strengthening muscles that the trainers suggest need work puts more pressure & pain on a currently sore back to try and resolve core strength issues.

If its an actual injury then the team doctors would take precedence over the team trainers. However if a player is actually hurt then they miss game days also not just practices to rest it by doctors orders.

Leafs have had a good/favorable schedule lately with lots of time between games and most at home with no travel.. You would think if Kessel had a valid injury and rest was the Dr. orders then taking a few games off (where he has been ineffective anyways) would give it more time to heal.

 

[silentbob37*]

I don't think I've ever seen this opinion anywhere, let alone on this board. Kind of hard to take you seriously when you write things like that.

Really? I rarely, if ever, see posts saying how usless Kessel is, how there is no redeeming quality in him etc... yet people who criticise him get painted with that brush.

Try posting any criticism about Kessel, you'll getting responses about how that criticism isn't real/valid. Add all those together.....

LMFAO, great response.

You mean pointing out you're no different then the "bashers"? Ya, I'm not surprised you don't see it.

 

[Duke Silver]

They aren't baseless. Do a google search, lots of stories, reports, rumors etc... about Kessel not being in great shape and/or not doing a tone of off-season working out. Even quotes from the man himself.

Lots of sensationalized nonsense which you unsurprisingly lapped up.

Just because Kessel skated 10 times over the summer does not mean he was not working out in other ways.

Based on what you guys infer, Kessel has to be the most out-of-shape player to put up a point-per-game over the span of three seasons in league history.

First, I dunno if anyone is "faulting" Kessel though I do find it funny that a month ago the notion that Kessel might start declining in his 30's was scoffed at by many because he was impervious to injury. Second, the analogy isn't that injury = a grade, its that because X numbers of players have back issues Kessel lack of working out absolutely can't be a contributing factor.

People are faulting Kessel. All of Mess' "maybe's", "could's" and "might's" are essentially a thinly-veiled blame game designed with an out clause of "I'm just speaking hypothetically here".

The point is that back injuries are a common occurrence in hockey, but I don't hear of any of these other players getting criticized for their conditioning/strength. Just another excuse to pile on. How tiring.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't think I've ever seen this opinion anywhere, let alone on this board. Kind of hard to take you seriously when you write things like that.

That ship has long ago sailed.

Most take a mature approach and can admit flaws which all Players have.
Some, well......

 

[JoeyBeans]

Sit Phil tonight.

 

[silentbob37*]

That ship has long ago sailed.

Most take a mature approach and can admit flaws which all Players have.
Some, well......

says someone who responds aggressive to any/every post criticizing Kessel......

Lots of sensationalized nonsense which you unsurprisingly lapped up.

Just because Kessel skated 10 times over the summer does not mean he was not working out in other ways.

Based on what you guys infer, Kessel has to be the most out-of-shape player to put up a point-per-game over the span of three seasons in league history.



People are faulting Kessel. All of Mess' "maybe's", "could's" and "might's" are essentially a thinly-veiled blame game designed with an out clause of "I'm just speaking hypothetically here".

The point is that back injuries are a common occurrence in hockey, but I don't hear of any of these other players getting criticized for their conditioning/strength. Just another excuse to pile on. How tiring.

Can you prove he worked out in other ways? While you say I/We lapped up "sensationalized nonsense", I can say you just ignore what you don't want to admit. And you're just proving my point about ignoring and attacking any/all criticism. There is enough out there to QUESTION the amount of work he does in the off-season and away from the rink, yet anyone who believes any of it is just "lapping up sensationlized nonsense".......

They aren't thinlly vieled anything. They are QUESTIONS, they are "maybes".

And who cares about other players, this conversation is about Kessel and if his injury IS caused by that.......

But as I pointed out, to some there is no valid criticism of Kessel, its all invalid, by haters, thinly vieled etc.... So why you approach a conversation like that don't be surprised you get a higher level of "venom"back. You want real, intelligent conversations don't turn into sniping back and forth, instead of replying with - "Baseless inferences, to which we've become accustomed from Mess." (which is itself a baseless inference, you dunno if his back issue is from a lack of core strength) say something like - "It could be that, but it could be a lot of other things too, lots of players get back injuries for a lot of reasons. Maybe Kessel's core needs to be stronger, but maybe its something else, right now we don't know" - Acknowledge that what Mess is saying MIGHT be true, but that it might also be alittle too early to definitively say its Kessel's lack of working out

See how that response doesn't insult him, dismiss his opinion and invites intelligent conversation? As long as you reply with things like "its sensational nonsense that is expected from these posters", expect to get argumentive posts back, because its what your'e putting out there.

 

[Menzinger]

I'd suggest it's unwise/pointless to discuss and suggest treatments for issues that none of us really have any idea about.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Really? I rarely, if ever, see posts saying how usless Kessel is, how there is no redeeming quality in him etc... yet people who criticise him get painted with that brush.

Try posting any criticism about Kessel, you'll getting responses about how that criticism isn't real/valid. Add all those together.....

I haven't seen anyone say that either. I saw a poster say that it's pretty much the same arguments over and over, and both sides of this verbal jousting is guilty of that.

I've posted negative things about pretty much every player on this team, and haven't really gotten any backlash. I've repeatedly been a harsh critic of Kessel and his performance, especially lately, and mostly gotten agreements and constructive counter-arguments.

The few times I've got jumped for my opinion, further study has shown that I deserved it.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'd suggest it's unwise/pointless to discuss and suggest treatments for issues that none of us really have any idea about.

What´s that? Some one dare to question my internet medical credentials?

 

[Eb]

Who the **** banged up Phil and when is he due?!

 

[Duke Silver]

Can you prove he worked out in other ways? While you say I/We lapped up "sensationalized nonsense", I can say you just ignore what you don't want to admit. And you're just proving my point about ignoring and attacking any/all criticism. There is enough out there to QUESTION the amount of work he does in the off-season and away from the rink, yet anyone who believes any of it is just "lapping up sensationlized nonsense".......

Can you prove he didn't?

Or are you going to stand there and assume a professional athlete did next to no training in the off-season?

 

[silentbob37*]

Can you prove he didn't?

Or are you going to stand there and assume a professional athlete did next to no training in the off-season?

Well he has said he only skated 10 times, doesn't do a lot work (fishes, golfs) Carlyle said he was taking days off he should haev been working.....and even still often the posts about this are littered with maybes and ifs and questionables etc...

So Kessel is beyond question or criticism?

 

[RadekBong]

My view on kessel is this. Going all the way back to pre draft it's been obvious the skill is there with kessel. He's a good skater, great pass, great shot, finds open space etc... even the biggest kessel haters will admit this. but for those of you who don't think it's a fitness issue I ask you this: whats stopping him from being as elite as a Seguin or Crosby? For me the only reasonable answer is a lack of commitment be it to the gym, or to all around offensive play. I'm not asking him to pitch in more defensively but he could at least take a hit to make a play in the offensive zone every once in a while.