Kelly vs. Lidström
- Thread starter unknown33
- Start date
tony d
Registered User
Fredrik_71
Registered User
This one is is actually close. But never seeing Red Kelly played I have to look at the stats. All-star selections, cups, PPG, etc. Lids beats Kelly in all categories except cups.
I will go for Lids.
/Cheers
I will go for Lids.
/Cheers
Axxellien
Registered User
Again very different styles, eras, situations, circumstances..Both have anchored Detroit dynasties. Red played Forward in Toronto.....Pretty even all told...
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I think it's gotten to the point where Nik Lidstrom should never be placed below either Red Kelly or Denis Potvin on an all-time list.
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
I didn't watch Kelly play, but I saw Potvin play, and I'll take him over Lidstrom.
I think Potvin's peak was better than any post-Orr defenseman.
Lidstrom, Bourque, Chelios all have longevity over Potvin, but that's more a function of era.
Not sure why, but players that started when Potvin did (68-77 or so), had shorter careers, especially than those who started from 79 onward.
I have
Orr
Shore
Harvey
Bourque
Potvin
Lidstrom would be in my next grouping, which from 6-12 is very tight.
From that group, I'd probably have Lidstrom 2nd behind Fetisov.
My (relatively uneducated) guess is that the closure of WHA plus a new skilled generation made the NHL more competetive. A lot of the 70s stars took a relatively sharp dip in production at the beginning of the 80s.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
I have to disagree on that one. Potvin in my mind was still better. Agree with John Flyers fan that he probably has the best post-Orr peak among defensemen.
But Lidstrom as a defenseman is above Kelly by now. Pre-lockout he wasn't, but he's done so much in the last 5 years that it's impossible not to put him there. Kelly narrows the gap for sure if we are talking about their WHOLE careers. Remember, Kelly was a forward from 1960-'67 and won 4 more Cups and was a darn fine two way forward those years. If the OP is talking strictly the defense position than it's Lidstrom. If it is the whole career then you might like Kelly just as much.
Anyways, I've always found Orr, Harvey, Shore, Bourque are a cut above the rest. The next crop is very, very close with Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly and Robinson IMO. Out of that group I would take Potvin but it's close
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'm a guy who clung stubbornly to Potvin being the 5th-best of all-time just as long as some guys clung to Robinson being 6th-best of all-time (I wasn't one of them) - It's time to admit Lidstrom has accomplished more than Denis Potvin.
(the point about era and longevity is more than valid, however)
(the point about era and longevity is more than valid, however)
unknown33
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2009
- 3,942
- 150
Kelly has done sweet ******* all this past year so I give it to Lidstrom.
Better step it up Red, it's time to stop coasting.
I got the impression that Potvin retired because he'd just had enough, not because he was washed up. He talks about it a bit in his Legends of Hockey video. So I'm not sure era-related longevity really had much to do with it.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
- 13,301
- 4,354
Voted Kelly. If only the time on defense is being considered, I probably give a slight edge to Lidstrom by now. He's been an elite level d-man pretty much twice as long as Kelly, but for a single game or season I'm taking Red. Kelly could dominate offensively from the back end in an era where guys just didn't do that.
I still have Potvin ahead of Lidstrom and Kelly (only ranking as a d-man). The thing that makes Lidstrom so great is that he never makes a mistake out there. But I still prefer the ominous presence of the Islander captain out there patrolling the blue line.
I still have Potvin ahead of Lidstrom and Kelly (only ranking as a d-man). The thing that makes Lidstrom so great is that he never makes a mistake out there. But I still prefer the ominous presence of the Islander captain out there patrolling the blue line.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
How much of Potvin's "better peak" do you think is because he played in an era when defensemen were allowed to take a much bigger part of the offense?
Post-1995, the NHL went mostly defense-first and defensemen in particular played more conservatively, which makes it harder to stand out.
If you look at NHL scoring leaderboards, defensemen are much farther down than they were in the late 70s and 80s.
Post-1995, the NHL went mostly defense-first and defensemen in particular played more conservatively, which makes it harder to stand out.
If you look at NHL scoring leaderboards, defensemen are much farther down than they were in the late 70s and 80s.
Big Phil
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2003
- 31,703
- 4,146
Hmmm, I don't know then. Lidstrom is rumoured to be retiring this year so if that happens and his legacy ends (short of another Cup win) I think I'd take Red
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
The difference for me isn't just offense, for me offense has very little to do with it.
The edge to Potvin in my rankings from having watched the both play is that in addition to all the great offensive and defensive qualities that both bring to the table, Potvin was also a nasty SOB.
Add that he was the unquestioned leader and captain of a team that won 4 Stanley Cups and 19 playoff series in a row, and that's the difference IMO
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Consecutive
The four consecutive cups and 19 consecutive series were possible during Lidstrom's tenure(16 playoff teams regardless of league size).Red Wings suffered a number of significant upsets during Lidstrom's tenure, some 4 - 0 sweeps. Islanders during Potvin's tenure were more consistent. Add the 0-3 comeback against Pittsburgh led by a young Potvin.
The four consecutive cups and 19 consecutive series were possible during Lidstrom's tenure(16 playoff teams regardless of league size).Red Wings suffered a number of significant upsets during Lidstrom's tenure, some 4 - 0 sweeps. Islanders during Potvin's tenure were more consistent. Add the 0-3 comeback against Pittsburgh led by a young Potvin.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
- 29,229
- 13,769
There may have been 16 teams in the playoffs of the early 80s but the teams weren't anywhere NEAR as balanced as they have been during Lidstrom's era.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
What does it really matter that they were consecutive? It just means Potvin did more in a 4-year period and much less in the "rest" of his career.
And norrisnick is right, the league was much less balanced in the Isles' heyday. It was considerably more likely that you would see a dynasty. That's not just being said with hindsight 20/20 because there were three dynasties; there were simply fewer truly great teams, and a large gap between the good ones and the bad ones.
red kelly should have won the hart in '54.
he lost it on a fluke. many writers thought rollins should have won in '53, so they decided to give the hart to him in '54.
but i think red kelly's offensive dominance is not completely clear. even before he played for TML, kelly sometimes played as a F, so his numbers do not accurately represent his offensive ability, unless other d-men also spent time at F.
i think kelly is very likely better than lidstrom offensively, though. i read an old sports illustrated article which praised him as a 4th F.
kelly's time as a F with DRW may have also hurt his position in all star and norris voting. overpass and i independently found newspaper articles from the '50s in which someone said kelly's AS votes were hurt by his time as a F.
he lost it on a fluke. many writers thought rollins should have won in '53, so they decided to give the hart to him in '54.
but i think red kelly's offensive dominance is not completely clear. even before he played for TML, kelly sometimes played as a F, so his numbers do not accurately represent his offensive ability, unless other d-men also spent time at F.
i think kelly is very likely better than lidstrom offensively, though. i read an old sports illustrated article which praised him as a 4th F.
kelly's time as a F with DRW may have also hurt his position in all star and norris voting. overpass and i independently found newspaper articles from the '50s in which someone said kelly's AS votes were hurt by his time as a F.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
I concur.
All 3 are very, very close but I like Potvin, Kelly, Lidstrom in that order.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
So Then.......................
Repeating matters because it has always been harder to do be it as a team or individually.Winning a championship is an accomplishment, defending it is repeatedly is a sign of greatness.
Effectively you are making a statement against prime, longevity and excellence. To wit, Lidstrom's consecutive Norris streak accomplishment has become significantly diminished. After all it was a lot easier to win when Lidstrom won it.
Repeating matters because it has always been harder to do be it as a team or individually.Winning a championship is an accomplishment, defending it is repeatedly is a sign of greatness.
Effectively you are making a statement against prime, longevity and excellence. To wit, Lidstrom's consecutive Norris streak accomplishment has become significantly diminished. After all it was a lot easier to win when Lidstrom won it.
