Kadri Player Discussion - Took a million threads but we all finally agree he's a #2C

[Joey Hoser]

I look at his whole career and he is a chronic underperformer. This year it's worse with only 2 goals.

If you look at his career and his draft class, he was picked more or less where he should have been.

You're expectations are/were overzealous.

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[Joey Hoser]

Probably.
I think it was watching that christmas .gif too many times.

The second liner feels third liner this year.
With him on a one year deal and the Leafs rebuilding ... I realized that Nazem is prime Trade Bait.
I hope people realize this.

He could very well be trade bait, but he could also be a useful tool to provide some stability up the middle which would allow guys like Nylander and Marner to ease their way into important roles without as much pressure as there would be if the Leafs had no other options. After they take over he could be pushed down into being a #3 center and PP specialist which was the role in which he played the best hockey of his life during the shortened season.

I don't think he's worth a fortune in trade and there's lots of use for him here. So long as this whole not-scoring thing evens itself out anyway.

 

[ULF_55]

He could very well be trade bait, but he could also be a useful tool to provide some stability up the middle which would allow guys like Nylander and Marner to ease their way into important roles without as much pressure as there would be if the Leafs had no other options. After they take over he could be pushed down into being a #3 center and PP specialist which was the role in which he played the best hockey of his life during the shortened season.

I don't think he's worth a fortune in trade and there's lots of use for him here. So long as this whole not-scoring thing evens itself out anyway.

I agree, unless he prices himself out of a 3rd. line center position.

I'm expecting both Nylander and Marner to be the top 2 centers, and we know how well overpaying works out.

Leafs have to approach this long term, not the next couple seasons, but the next 5. Maybe if they front loaded Kadri's contract so that in 3 years he's maybe heavy on cap but light on dollars?

 

[SprDaVE]

I'd have zero problem giving Kadri a 3-4 year extension. I don't think the Leafs would have an issue with that either. Maybe 5 years if the cap is right.

Babcock has liked Kadri and has played him a lot over the last few weeks. He's creating a lot of chances. He's played a far better 200 foot game. Better on faceoffs as well. All the little things people kept giving him crap for.

I don't disagree that this is a result business and so far and his offensive numbers haven't been good at all, but I think we can all agree that he's been very good despite that. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't get really hot soon and catches up to a solid stat line.

With that said, he's definitely not untouchable and if there's a good trade around the deadline that brings something great for us moving forward that involves Kadri, I am all ears.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I agree, unless he prices himself out of a 3rd. line center position.

I'm expecting both Nylander and Marner to be the top 2 centers, and we know how well overpaying works out.

Leafs have to approach this long term, not the next couple seasons, but the next 5. Maybe if they front loaded Kadri's contract so that in 3 years he's maybe heavy on cap but light on dollars?

Let's say the production does return and he "prices himself out of the third line". He's not going to get more than 4-5.5 over 4-5 years.

There's only maybe a year or two we could possibly have to worry about that salary. At that point half the roster will be on ELC's and or second contracts, so unless we sign Stamkos and Rielly and Marner and Nylander are all justifiably demanding huge contracts, it really doesn't seem like much of a concern to me. If it's a problem then it will be the type of problem thats good to have.

 

[ULF_55]

I'd have zero problem giving Kadri a 3-4 year extension. I don't think the Leafs would have an issue with that either.

Babcock has liked Kadri and has played him the most of any other forward in the last few weeks. He's creating chances. He's played a far better 200 foot game. Better on faceoffs as well. All the little things people kept giving him crap for.

I don't disagree that this is a result business and so far and his offensive numbers haven't been good at all, but I think we can all agree that he's been very good despite that.

I think he could easily fit on the 3rd. line of any team in the league, 2nd. line of some teams.

When the Leafs talent arrives he wouldn't be an impediment to their development.

 

[SprDaVE]

I think he could easily fit on the 3rd. line of any team in the league, 2nd. line of some teams.

When the Leafs talent arrives he wouldn't be an impediment to their development.

He's easily a 2nd line center on most teams, and a good one at that. Obviously some teams are stacked at the center position but that doesn't remove his skill level.

 

[ULF_55]

Let's say the production does return and he "prices himself out of the third line". He's not going to get more than 4-5.5 over 4-5 years.

There's only maybe a year or two we could possibly have to worry about that salary. At that point half the roster will be on ELC's and or second contracts, so unless we sign Stamkos and Rielly and Marner and Nylander are all justifiably demanding huge contracts, it really doesn't seem like much of a concern to me. If it's a problem then it will be the type of problem wthats good to have.

It does look like 3rd. line centers getting paid 4-4.75 is reasonable, so no one should be wailing about Kadri being paid in that range as a 3rd. line center.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'd have zero problem giving Kadri a 3-4 year extension. I don't think the Leafs would have an issue with that either. Maybe 5 years if the cap is right.

Babcock has liked Kadri and has played him a lot over the last few weeks. He's creating a lot of chances. He's played a far better 200 foot game. Better on faceoffs as well. All the little things people kept giving him crap for.

I don't disagree that this is a result business and so far and his offensive numbers haven't been good at all, but I think we can all agree that he's been very good despite that. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't get really hot soon and catches up to a solid stat line.

I'm not sure I'd extend him quite yet .. But he's doing everything asides from actually producing on the scoresheet right, so there'd be some consideration.

Worth noting that something different about this year is that with Kessel gone, Kadri faces tougher competition in terms of lines and d pairings he matches up with. I give him credit for being able to create chances and play at both ends of the rink.

But he still has to start producing a little more.

I'd look at a 2-3 year extension on around ~$4.5 right now. Gives him a shorter term to still earn a big pay day, and allows the Leafs to at the very least have another stop gap while Nylander/Marner and the other kids break into the NHL (I'm of the opinion that Bozak should be sold high this year if he keeps it up, but that's another topic) .. As those ELC's expire Kadri's salary could be moved off the books.

 

[SprDaVE]

I'm not sure I'd extend him quite yet .. But he's doing everything asides from actually producing on the scoresheet right, so there'd be some consideration.

Worth noting that something different about this year is that with Kessel gone, Kadri faces tougher competition in terms of lines and d pairings he matches up with. I give him credit for being able to create chances and play at both ends of the rink.

But he still has to start producing a little more.

I'd look at a 2-3 year extension on around ~$4.5 right now. Gives him a shorter term to still earn a big pay day, and allows the Leafs to at the very least have another stop gap while Nylander/Marner and the other kids break into the NHL (I'm of the opinion that Bozak should be sold high this year if he keeps it up, but that's another topic) .. As those ELC's expire Kadri's salary could be moved off the books.

He is producing though. People look at Goals and Assists like it's the only thing that matters. Obviously it does but there are a lot more to just those in statistics.

This is why we have Dubas and his stats team to look at another way of evaluating the worth of a player. I'm not even talking about 'advanced' statistics either. I'm talking about the things Babcock wants out of his centers as well; face off wins, compete level and playing in all 3 zones. He's done all those to a whole new level this year so far, which is the growth we wanted out of Kadri. If he stops creating chances and playing at a high level, points or not, this is when we should start worrying about his game.

I think they would be more then fine to give him a 4+ year contract, the only thing that could deter them from signing him that long would be the cap hit. They need to find a good number, which is the same thing you could say about most players around his age bracket and tier level.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm not sure I'd extend him quite yet .. But he's doing everything asides from actually producing on the scoresheet right, so there'd be some consideration.

Worth noting that something different about this year is that with Kessel gone, Kadri faces tougher competition in terms of lines and d pairings he matches up with. I give him credit for being able to create chances and play at both ends of the rink.

But he still has to start producing a little more.

I'd look at a 2-3 year extension on around ~$4.5 right now. Gives him a shorter term to still earn a big pay day, and allows the Leafs to at the very least have another stop gap while Nylander/Marner and the other kids break into the NHL (I'm of the opinion that Bozak should be sold high this year if he keeps it up, but that's another topic) .. As those ELC's expire Kadri's salary could be moved off the books.

Yes, getting the 1st. line is more difficult than playing behind the first line. More pressure to produce, and let's face it if you don't produce you don't deserve to be in that position. Results today is always greater than results tomorrow. (Tomorrow never comes.)

 

[SprDaVE]

Yes, getting the 1st. line is more difficult than playing behind the first line. More pressure to produce, and let's face it if you don't produce you don't deserve to be in that position. Results today is always greater than results tomorrow. (Tomorrow never comes.)

Does this mean Getzlaf isn't a #1 center anymore? Producing 3rd line numbers... barely I guess. Could we trade Bozak for Crosby? I wonder...

"Results today is always greater than results tomorrow."

 

[RLF]

Interesting that people say Bozak is untradeable being paid $4.2 per, but Kadri, even as a 3rd liner is ok at $4.5 or more?

The higher Nazem's role has gotten, his production declines. Anything more than 3-4 years at $4-$4.5 would be a mistake imo. His better overall play aside, this was my feeling from the start when people were throwing out 6-8 year deals and nothing has changed for me. I like him, but not at a long term hit or over $4.5 per. If he wants more, move him.

 

[ULF_55]

Does this mean Getzlaf isn't a #1 center anymore? Producing 3rd line numbers... barely I guess.

"Results today is always greater than results tomorrow."

Kadri and Getzlaf?

Come on! Kadri has never been a 1st. line center, Getzlaf has for years.

There's a difference between someone who has constantly done it being in a cold spell and someone who has never done it. This isn't even a debate. Getzlaf versus Kadri?

 

[Joey Hoser]

Interesting that people say Bozak is untradeable being paid $4.2 per, but Kadri, even as a 3rd liner is ok at $4.5 or more?

There's a rather rational explanation for that in the fact that many people questioned Bozak's ability to produce and be more than a depth player without Kessel. If he continues to do well then he's totally tradable.

 

[SprDaVE]

Kadri and Getzlaf?

Come on! Kadri has never been a 1st. line center, Getzlaf has for years.

There's a difference between someone who has constantly done it being in a cold spell and someone who has never done it. This isn't even a debate. Getzlaf versus Kadri?

I never compared Kadri to Getzlaf. You completely missed the point.

I'm just showing here the results of today. Isn't that what your quote implies? I guess it doesn't fit here, eh? Getzlaf has been horrible and hasn't put up numbers. Does this mean he's a third line center because of a lack of goals and assists? What about Crosby?

Sometimes, especially early in a season, a lot of hot/cold streaks will happen and those change throughout the season. Again, Kadri has played really well despite the lack of goals. He's had what... 5-6 posts? A ton more chances just missed or stopped with great saves. His underlying numbers are very good among other good things he's done... but people only look at the "goal" stat to make their decision on a player, especially when it fits their narrative... but I'm not surprised.

 

[BertCorbeau]

He is producing though. People look at Goals and Assists like it's the only thing that matters. Obviously it does but there are a lot more to just those in statistics.

This is why we have Dubas and another way of looking at the worth of a player.

I'm not even talking about 'advanced' statistics. I'm talking about the things Babcock wants out of his centers, face off wins, compete level and playing in all 3 zones. He's done all those to a whole new level this year so far.

I think they would be more then fine to give him a 4+ year contract, the only thing that could deter them from signing him that long would be the cap hit. They need to find a good number, which is the same thing you could say about most players around his age bracket and tier level.

Well Kadri is 25 right now .. So I think a deal no more than 4 years makes sense for him because he may still want a bigger pay day if he thinks he can play at a higher level.

 

[SprDaVE]

Well Kadri is 25 right now .. So I think a deal no more than 4 years makes sense for him because he may still want a bigger pay day if he thinks he can play at a higher level.

I tend to agree. Shorter term is probably the best way to go. A more conservative approach to keep his value at a high level with new blood coming in is probably for the best.

Kadri hasn't been overly greedy in his contract negotiations thus far, so I hope the Leafs and him can find a good even ground for an extenstion. He could be a good forward to have around with Nylander, Marner, etc coming up.

 

[RLF]

There's a rather rational explanation for that in the fact that many people questioned Bozak's ability to produce and be more than a depth player without Kessel. If he continues to do well then he's totally tradable.

My point being is that Kadri isn't producing as his role increases and people are still ok with him getting more than Bozak already gets, who actually is producing without Kessel. I look at last season as well, his role increased, his production went down. Where is the rational reason for giving Kadri more than Bozak at this point?

 

[BertCorbeau]

My point being is that Kadri isn't producing as his role increases and people are still ok with him getting more than Bozak already gets, who actually is producing without Kessel. I look at last season as well, his role increased, his production went down. Where is the rational reason for giving Kadri more than Bozak at this point?

Because contracts are based off of external market forces, not internal contracts signed a few years ago

 

[Pookie]

My point being is that Kadri isn't producing as his role increases and people are still ok with him getting more than Bozak already gets, who actually is producing without Kessel. I look at last season as well, his role increased, his production went down. Where is the rational reason for giving Kadri more than Bozak at this point?

True.

You could argue inflation though. If you bought your house 4 years ago, it probably cost less than if you needed to buy it now.

I think that the narrative of Kadri being a great possession player is starting to be questioned.

Whether you are a fan of "advanced" stats or not, this is an interesting look at the Leafs possession metrics this year.

Starting to look that from a production and "other metric" standpoint, perhaps Kadri is better suited to 2nd/3rd line duties against lesser competition.

 

[RLF]

Because contracts are based off of external market forces, not internal contracts signed a few years ago

Bozak was a UFA when signed, not RFA, so it was not an internal contract. Kadri will still be RFA at end of this contract (actual internal contract), outside forces will have little impact as he has vey little bargaining power. Especially considering his lack of production the past two seasons should his production continue to be poor this year.

 

[dballislife2]

watching him play every game, the offense he generates is great...he gets the puck to places that others dont, skates with it, stick handles, and dangles with ease, makes amazing passes, creates a lot of buzz...but isnt putting up the points lol...however the other team doesnt get the puck as much with kadri on, which is good when hes up against top lines

 

[dirk41]

True.

You could argue inflation though. If you bought your house 4 years ago, it probably cost less than if you needed to buy it now.

I think that the narrative of Kadri being a great possession player is starting to be questioned.

Whether you are a fan of "advanced" stats or not, this is an interesting look at the Leafs possession metrics this year.

Starting to look that from a production and "other metric" standpoint, perhaps Kadri is better suited to 2nd/3rd line duties against lesser competition.

Kadri's CF% close is 50.3, and he's an advanced stats superstar. Galchenyuk is at 58, the best on the Habs, and no one talks about his advanced stats. The board talks about him like a disappointment.

 

[RLF]

watching him play every game, the offense he generates is great...he gets the puck to places that others dont, skates with it, stick handles, and dangles with ease, makes amazing passes, creates a lot of buzz...but isnt putting up the points lol...however the other team doesnt get the puck as much with kadri on, which is good when hes up against top lines

Production matters though if he is going to be our top line or 2nd line centre. No successful team has a 30-40pt top line centre and that would be low for a 2nd line centre as well. He can show all the skill in the world, but he also has to produce against the other teams top lines, just like Bozak needed to do. Since Bozak did not produce as many felt he should, there was always talk he wasn't good enough and shouldn't play as a 1c, or even 2c...why is it different when it comes to Kadri?