Kadri player discssion thread.

[Rogie]

I think it was Babcock that said in the media that Kadri needs to start eliminating a lot of the minuses that seem to be attracted to his name every season. I've already given up on him becoming better in the face off circle. I don't see that miraculously changing anytime soon.

Obviously, it's still early but so far he is doing better this year on face-offs.
from nhl.com
Last year:

528won 616lost FO% 46.2%

This year:

41 won 37 lost FO% 52.6%

 

[Ovate]

You can really only have so many 5+ million dollar players on your cap.. About 5-6, I would say. To win a Stanley Cup you realistically need a bona fide #1 D, G, and a C. You can't win otherwise. Perhaps you can win with an upper echelon #2 G (Crawford comes to mind), but the Blackhawks are such a great team it's almost irrelevant.

My point is, does Kadri belong in one of those 5-6 or so slots? Just don't see it. He's too one dimensional without being elite offensively. His work ethic is suspect and is lazy defensively (he's a one zone player). It's a point of emphasis that Babcock is trying desperately to address.

On top of all of that he's actually been suspended by the team for off ice conduct detrimental to the team. I wouldn't go so far to say he's a cancer in the room, but i wouldn't say his conduct should be confused for anything but what it is, incredible immaturity for a 25-26 year old man. So my apologies if I'm not jumping on the bandwagon for a mediocre one dimensional player who so far has had one good 40 game stretch in his career and not much else.

Look at the Blackhawks. They had 7 players making 5M+ last year. Tampa Bay only had 5, but they had 4 other defensemen making betwen 4M and 5M. So the 5-6 you gave number is objectively wrong, even before you take into account a rising cap. In addition, the Leafs don't have any big stars who will eat up significantly more than that. Our best prospects are on ELCs for the next four years. Gardiner and JVR don't even make $5M, Lupul, Bozak and possibly Phaneuf will be gone. Leafs are in one of the best longterm cap situations in the league and it's wasted if we don't use it to keep our good players.

Tangent: you don't need a #1C, #1G and #1D to win. Of the four conference finalists last year, Anaheim didn't have a #1D, NYR didn't have a #1C, and Chicago, Anaheim and Tampa all had lackluster options in net. There's no simplistic formula for building a contender. Acquire as much solid talent as you can, get a good coach, and it will work out. And Kadri is solid talent.

Calling Kadri lazy defensively shows that you have absolutely no idea how to evaluate a player. He's one of our best players, defensively. There is also nothing that makes his work ethic suspect.

Kadri's on ice play is worth a big contract. We have the cap now and in the future to give Kadri a big contract. There shouldn't be any problems here, except his off ice issues.

Kadri's suspension is noteworthy, but it's also noteworthy that they didn't trade him. Management believes he can overcome it. And they've shown that they have no problem trading locker room problems in the Kessel deal. I'm not going to defend him, because I can't, because no one knows what he did.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

You can really only have so many 5+ million dollar players on your cap.. About 5-6, I would say. To win a Stanley Cup you realistically need a bona fide #1 D, G, and a C. You can't win otherwise. Perhaps you can win with an upper echelon #2 G (Crawford comes to mind), but the Blackhawks are such a great team it's almost irrelevant.

My point is, does Kadri belong in one of those 5-6 or so slots? Just don't see it. He's too one dimensional without being elite offensively. His work ethic is suspect and is lazy defensively (he's a one zone player). It's a point of emphasis that Babcock is trying desperately to address.

On top of all of that he's actually been suspended by the team for off ice conduct detrimental to the team. I wouldn't go so far to say he's a cancer in the room, but i wouldn't say his conduct should be confused for anything but what it is, incredible immaturity for a 25-26 year old man. So my apologies if I'm not jumping on the bandwagon for a mediocre one dimensional player who so far has had one good 40 game stretch in his career and not much else.

Wow you couldn't be more blatant in your irrational hatred/dislike for kadri if you tried.

You have no idea what the issues between Kadri and management and as such are just speculating as to his conduct. The fact that you call him one dimensional also shows you don't know what you are talking about. The guy had Clarkson for his linemate more then anyone else last year which is sickening. We gave him shit to play with and he only got better and more rounded. You are also forgetting that adversity is the best teacher around, he will only continue to get better and prove the nay sayers wrong. He is also the best in the league at drawing penalties, we just need to cash in on those PP chances.

Not to mention the fact that he has had shit coaching the past 4 years overall, no real system to play in and hell Wilson made a routine of throwing him under the media bus.

Give the best coach around have a crack at him before you make more uneducated comments on what he will and won't do.

 

[Pookie]

Let's be practical for just a moment here.

Next year, how many Center positions do we think need to be made available for Marlies/Trades to step into the line up?

Amongst the current forwards:

- Bozak has 3 years on his deal at $4.2M
- Holland is a RFA making under $1M
- Spaling will be UFA making over $2M
- Kadri will be RFA but will need a long term deal and will seek in the 4-6 range.

Who goes if you need room for 2? Who gets the most assets back?

 

[BorntoLose]

Let's be practical for just a moment here.

Next year, how many Center positions do we think need to be made available for Marlies/Trades to step into the line up?

Amongst the current forwards:

- Bozak has 3 years on his deal at $4.2M
- Holland is a RFA making under $1M
- Spaling will be UFA making over $2M
- Kadri will be RFA but will need a long term deal and will seek in the 4-6 range.

Who goes if you need room for 2? Who gets the most assets back?

too early to say - fully depends on how they all perform this season, if Bozak shows he can be semi useful without being attached to Kessel maybe he can actually fetch a decent return, i see Spaling being dealt at the deadline for a low to mid round pick.

 

[Pookie]

too early to say - fully depends on how they all perform this season, if Bozak shows he can be semi useful without being attached to Kessel maybe he can actually fetch a decent return, i see Spaling being dealt at the deadline for a low to mid round pick.

Holland and Bozak are your two low risk options.

Bozak's term and cap hit are set for the next 3 years. His age means that he will be moving off the top line and giving away his team leading minutes as the years progress. Younger players can step in and take them by 2018.

Holland is basically a good, low cost bottom 6 guy who can provide serviceable minutes and not take away from the top 6. Very low cap hit.

Spaling is a wild card. Signing him is fine but he'd be taking minutes away from development.

Kadri is a risk. Term unknown. Cap hit unknown. Top 6 minutes could mean a log jam at the top. Not necessarily a bad problem but a problem that isn't posed by the others.

 

[Macallan18]

Let's be practical for just a moment here.

Next year, how many Center positions do we think need to be made available for Marlies/Trades to step into the line up?

Amongst the current forwards:

- Bozak has 3 years on his deal at $4.2M
- Holland is a RFA making under $1M
- Spaling will be UFA making over $2M
- Kadri will be RFA but will need a long term deal and will seek in the 4-6 range.

Who goes if you need room for 2? Who gets the most assets back?

Spalding is gone at the trade deadline. If he can't be traded, he won't be resigned.
Kadri gets a multiple year deal. He has the highest trade value by far, because he is heads above the other three.
Holland is up in the air. I think he has played better but keep him? Not sure. Depends on how Bozak does. Not much trade value.
Next year, if he is still here, Bozak will have two years left on his contract. If he plays better he will be traded, at 29 he will start declining and won't be useful to the team in two or three years. He will be traded, play out his contract, or be bought out. Equal chance of those three.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let's be practical for just a moment here.

Next year, how many Center positions do we think need to be made available for Marlies/Trades to step into the line up?

Amongst the current forwards:

- Bozak has 3 years on his deal at $4.2M
- Holland is a RFA making under $1M
- Spaling will be UFA making over $2M
- Kadri will be RFA but will need a long term deal and will seek in the 4-6 range.

Who goes if you need room for 2? Who gets the most assets back?

The better the player, the better the return, it's not complicated. Was that a serious question Pookie?

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I think it was Babcock that said in the media that Kadri needs to start eliminating a lot of the minuses that seem to be attracted to his name every season. I've already given up on him becoming better in the face off circle. I don't see that miraculously changing anytime soon.

He's over 50% on the dot this year... ? I agree that he'll probably go down soon, but how can you tell he hasn't made a change in the offseason if his faceoff numbers so far are good?

 

[Guy Boucher]

He's over 50% on the dot this year... ? I agree that he'll probably go down soon, but how can you tell he hasn't made a change in the offseason if his faceoff numbers so far are good?

It's called bias. It doesn't matter where the facts lie, the opinion doesn't change.

 

[RLF]

It's called bias. It doesn't matter where the facts lie, the opinion doesn't change.

That's a little unfair to say it's obvious bias. It's only 5 games and he has been all over the place per games at the dot. He has one game at only 29% then followed it with a 73% game. Other wise 46%, 53% and 56% per game. Very erratic so far. Let's see where he is after 25 games or so before we start claiming he has improved for sure.

 

[RLF]

Not sure why the consensus seems to be long term deal or trade. He is an RFA, he has little bargaining power. If he tries arbitration, unless he has an excellent season(especially numbers wise), I doubt he gets awarded more than $5-$5.5 per, which would be 1 or 2 year deal IIRC. Leafs could easily offer a 3-4 year deal in that range and Naz would be foolish not to take it because he has little bargaining power.
3-4 year deal if he continues to prove himself is what I am expecting the Leafs offer.

 

[Bluelines]

Why do you ask?

Just wondering if they are odds created using facts that you've gleaned or if they are odds pulled out of your posterior, one holds much more weight.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just wondering if they are odds created using facts that you've gleaned or if they are odds pulled out of your posterior, one holds much more weight.

You don't deserve an answer because it seems you're more interested in being rude than having a discussion.

The answer (even though you don't deserve one) is - facts.

Have a nice life.

PS Unless you want to waste your time, don't bother asking me any more questions as I won't be answering.

 

[Bill Waters*]

You don't deserve an answer because it seems you're more interested in being rude than having a discussion.

The answer (even though you don't deserve one) is - facts.

Have a nice life.

PS Unless you want to waste your time, don't bother asking me any more questions as I won't be answering.

You assign odds in a very subjective manner, yet you call it fact. Was he rude? Yes, but not wrong to question.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You assign odds in a very subjective manner, yet you call it fact. Was he rude? Yes, but not wrong to question.

This poster has a history of making ridiculous posts on the subject of Kadri. If it was just the one, I wouldn't have made it an issue.

"Near zero" is vague and is more of an expression than a serious attempt at handicapping. Nevertheless I think it's pretty accurate (again depending on your definition of "near zero"). If you are really curious as to my reasoning, send me a PM and I'll be happy to explain.

 

[Bill Waters*]

He's shooting alot. Very crafty by Kadri. He knows he's corsi is easier to inflate than actual production, in this contract year. Corsi is the poor mans subsitute for actual production.

 

[Menzinger]

He's shooting alot. Very crafty by Kadri. He knows he's corsi is easier to inflate than actual production, in this contract year. Corsi is the poor mans subsitute for actual production.

Or you know, he's being told to shoot more by Babcock....

 

[cookie]

His situation reminds me a lot of Patty Sharp. We kind of have the supporting pieces coming together, though not exactly the same level as Kane and Toews, but having him on the team should help the up and coming prospects.

 

[Mitchy]

He's shooting alot. Very crafty by Kadri. He knows he's corsi is easier to inflate than actual production, in this contract year. Corsi is the poor mans subsitute for actual production.

What a joke. If it's so easy, every contract year player would do the same.

Also, there's something called Corsi Against (which is used to measure shot suppression), which Kadri happens to excel in. Is he also purposely altering that number?

 

[Semantics]

Obviously, it's still early but so far he is doing better this year on face-offs.
from nhl.com
Last year:

528won 616lost FO% 46.2%

This year:

41 won 37 lost FO% 52.6%

All of the centers are up in faceoff %. Amazing what a difference it makes to have shorter shifts and not be playing the whole game hemmed in your own end and taking a bunch of FOs after icings when the whole line is gassed.

 

[Semantics]

All of the centers are up in faceoff %. Amazing what a difference it makes to have shorter shifts and not be playing the whole game hemmed in your own end and taking a bunch of FOs after icings when the whole line is gassed.

Most of the Kadri haters around here thought Carlyle was a good coach.

 

[HockeyCA]

It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to respond to each individual poster who decides to quote my post and then proceeds to go on some over the top rant about how I'm biased, don't have a clue, refusing to see a great talent that is over performing expectations.. Oh wait.

Let's revisit this discussion at around the 20 game mark. Let's see if real progress has been made and what his statistical production looks like. That should give us a better jumping off point to have a discussion.. Because right now I'm trying to use the last 2 years as a benchmark and barometer as to what this player actually is, and his most arvant supporters want me to just look back one more. I think we can all agree that it will be ok to judge Kadri on how he performs these first 20 games, considering hes now a 25 year old playing arguably for the best coach in the game. Let's see where things stand then.

 

[Purity*]

It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to respond to each individual poster who decides to quote my post and then proceeds to go on some over the top rant about how I'm biased, don't have a clue, refusing to see a great talent that is over performing expectations.. Oh wait.

Let's revisit this discussion at around the 20 game mark. Let's see if real progress has been made and what his statistical production looks like. That should give us a better jumping off point to have a discussion.. Because right now I'm trying to use the last 2 years as a benchmark and barometer as to what this player actually is, and his most arvant supporters want me to just look back one more. I think we can all agree that it will be ok to judge Kadri on how he performs these first 20 games, considering hes now a 25 year old playing arguably for the best coach in the game. Let's see where things stand then.

Last 2 years?

He produced 50 points in 78 games which is great production for a 2nd liner. Next year, he produced 39 points in 73 games which is around 45 points. Less than the year before, but still 2nd line numbers, in a year where Horachek choked the offense out of the whole lineup. He did all this with a constant merry-go-around of linemates (makes it pretty hard to build chemistry) on a garbage team.

Kadri is fine.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to respond to each individual poster who decides to quote my post and then proceeds to go on some over the top rant about how I'm biased, don't have a clue, refusing to see a great talent that is over performing expectations.. Oh wait.

Let's revisit this discussion at around the 20 game mark. Let's see if real progress has been made and what his statistical production looks like. That should give us a better jumping off point to have a discussion.. Because right now I'm trying to use the last 2 years as a benchmark and barometer as to what this player actually is, and his most arvant supporters want me to just look back one more. I think we can all agree that it will be ok to judge Kadri on how he performs these first 20 games, considering hes now a 25 year old playing arguably for the best coach in the game. Let's see where things stand then.

Again you assume people will agree with you - faulty assumption.

Why would you want to evaluate any player based on such a small sample size and ignore the rest of his career? What's wrong with looking at the entire picture and using all the information we have to evaluate?