Kurisu
mad scientist
there isn't many #1D man in this league anyway, or at least you would want to consider as a #1.
Just how good is Jake Gardiner?
- Thread starter phillycheesesteak
- Start date
there isn't many #1D man in this league anyway, or at least you would want to consider as a #1.
He'll be a #3 most likely, with an outside shot at being a top pair guy,
I don't see the offense from Jake to think he'll ever be a top pairing guy, he doesn't have much of shot and his passing and vision are merely above average at this point. He's a smooth skating defenceman in the mold of a Kaberle imo.
I don't see the offense from Jake to think he'll ever be a top pairing guy, he doesn't have much of shot and his passing and vision are merely above average at this point. He's a smooth skating defenceman in the mold of a Kaberle imo.
BIitz
GRANT = SOFT
- Oct 5, 2010
- 14,014
- 3
Regardless the definition of #1 defensemen, I can't see him being the top defender on a good team at any point in his career. So it baffles my mind to hear the word Norris in here.
More in the mould of Niedermayer. Kaberle was a good skater, but his puck moving ability had a large passing component. You could, in fact, argue that he moves the puck a lot like Lidstrom or Phaneuf. On the other hand, Kaberle rushes the more like Niedermayer or even the great Bobby Orr.
As for his projection, I think a #3 sounds like a safe bet. In fact, in terms of all-round potential, I could see Franson being a bit higher than him. Large size, puck mover, starting to use his body and can handle tough minutes (as seen in the playoffs) sounds like a guy who has a lot of potential. On the other hand, Gardiner seems more like a high-end offensive guy, but I'm not so sure if he's going to producing at a PPG. He doesn't have the shot nor is his distributing ability that effective.
What will probably allow him to achieve such minutes is if he played with someone like Phaneuf. I could see Dion's production returning to his Calgary years if he had a creative guy with him. The high tempo system, depth scoring system that we used, means more competition for production. A partner like Gunnarsson is really a terrible choice, because it's obvious that the real weakness of the pairing is creativity on the counter attack. If we're constantly failing to drive effective possession, don't be surprised to be scored on regularly. Phaneuf and more particularly Gunnars are not that nasty so it's not like you'd be slowing down the top scoring guys when they're on the counter attack.
Illustration:
1. Top scoring line forecheck
2. Shut down tandem retains possession
3. Poor by our unit when attempting to drive possession
4. Repeat 1 indefinitely until we forfeit a goal.
This is NOT productive at all. It some of the most annoying hockey I have ever seen. The Gardiner - Franson unit looked better to the eyes, because they actually could effectively drive possession. I would seriously try out Liles if Gardiner/ Rielly wasn't ready. Phaneuf could easily play a Beauchemin role, because he's clearly better than him on his own end. I think someone like Gardiner would rapidly develop if given such opportunities.
He's much faster than Kaberle, who's skating looked great but excelled because everything just seemed to slow down to whatever pace he wanted when he had the puck.
I think Gardiner is good enough that were he to spontaneously switch to being a forward he would be top 6 quality immediately with top 3 potential. His skating, puck handling, and passing are all excellent. I don't see how his shot sucks, either. He has a very nice wrister and we don't see him taking a lot of slapshots because he knows it's more important to get the puck through traffic from the point than to impress internet nerds.
Everyone ITT is bashing his vision but I think its one of his best assets.
Hes our best PMD and to have that title you have to have some damn good vision.
Hes our best PMD and to have that title you have to have some damn good vision.
People that bash his vision have not a clue what they are talking about. The kid pulls off amazing passes on the reg. He uses his poise to wait for a lane to open up and then makes an amazing pass to someone without even looking sometimes and it always gets to them. A lot of the times I've noticed our forwards not expecting that he could pull it off and weren't ready. When they get more comfortable as Jake plays more, it's gonna be great.
I remember his first game, he played like a seasoned vet with the puck on his stick. His poise was unreal and as his confidence grows he'll get better and better.
I have no idea where the vision criticism comes from....bizarre.
Gardiner has top pair upside all day long, fact he was our best playoff D against the most physical team in league, that dogs the D on the forecheck better than anyone, speaks volumes!
I really don't agree with much of this post. Jake is a savvy shooter and smooth skating should read (dominating skater) to which he is simply dominating the game when he is at his best skating game.
I do agree he needs to learn to break down the game(read the game better on the rush) his passing is hesitated by not finding the play quick enough yet. His passing is nhl calibre.
He is a gem in the making. 4 years from now when he is fully developed it will be a treat to watch him.
Leaf Rocket
Leaf Fan Till I Die
That's what I want to see. Give him the opportunity to be the playmaking blue liner and maybe he starts producing at a >60 points. That type of mobility, vision, would be very compatible with our high tempo game. Since we don't usually have a patient administration, our stars aren't often utilised well.
Diatomic
Mitch Matthewlander
He's a blend between Bobby Orr and Nicklas Lidstrom, has the potential to be better than both though 
Agreed, Campbell is a quality top pairing dman, an extremely valuable player. If Gardiner turns out to be a Campbell level player, we should be very happy. If Gardiner turns out to be a Keith level player, of course that would be even better, but I don't really see it happening.
If Jake Gardiner can be 80% of what Kaberle was, he'll be a real treat.
I don't understand the hate for one of the top offensive, puck moving defensemen in the league over the last 15 years.
The guy is one of the slickest skaters in the league, he can move north-south and east-west as well as almost anyone you can think of. His stickhandling is great and when combined with the raw skating ability, he will become a great threat on the break-out.
His physical game is basic, his defensive positioning is not good - in the offensive zone he tends to get caught out of position very often due to the focus on his offensive contribution, and in the defensive zone he makes just as many bad decisions as most of the rest of the team (including Dion).
And that's fine, there have been many players with the same kind of style and flaws, and some went on to become greats, one is likely a top 3 defenseman all time. What they learned is that playing defense is not all about hitting and scaring the forward, but it can be just as useful to cut down the angles and to use the stick to mess up with the shot/pass/movement.
Despite his age, his skating will mask much of the learning curve he will go through in the NHL dealing with much smarter, more experienced, stronger and faster players than he's dealt with in the AHL.
Normally, you'd like a veteran on the ice who has lost foot-speed who can teach the player all about these little tricks, about cutting someone off instead of pushing them off course, about reading the plays instead of reacting. Sadly, the only veteran the Leafs have who could impart any of these things, is someone that doesn't fit into the team's system and will either be the 7th man, traded or bought out.
Gardiner played like a young star last season. Despite his offensive abilities, he still makes the mistake of forgetting that as a defenseman, even an offensive one, his primary duty is to prevent plays and goals from being scored against his team. That was the reason he sat so much of last season after the injury. Because his skating wasn't back to normal and couldn't mask all of his defensive deficiencies.
Once those are taken care of, he'll be a great player to watch, even if he tones down his offensive play.
I can definitely see him play on the first pair sometime down the line (maybe 2 years), and will hope to see him on the 2nd line this season with a more conservative player next to him.
I don't understand the hate for one of the top offensive, puck moving defensemen in the league over the last 15 years.
The guy is one of the slickest skaters in the league, he can move north-south and east-west as well as almost anyone you can think of. His stickhandling is great and when combined with the raw skating ability, he will become a great threat on the break-out.
His physical game is basic, his defensive positioning is not good - in the offensive zone he tends to get caught out of position very often due to the focus on his offensive contribution, and in the defensive zone he makes just as many bad decisions as most of the rest of the team (including Dion).
And that's fine, there have been many players with the same kind of style and flaws, and some went on to become greats, one is likely a top 3 defenseman all time. What they learned is that playing defense is not all about hitting and scaring the forward, but it can be just as useful to cut down the angles and to use the stick to mess up with the shot/pass/movement.
Despite his age, his skating will mask much of the learning curve he will go through in the NHL dealing with much smarter, more experienced, stronger and faster players than he's dealt with in the AHL.
Normally, you'd like a veteran on the ice who has lost foot-speed who can teach the player all about these little tricks, about cutting someone off instead of pushing them off course, about reading the plays instead of reacting. Sadly, the only veteran the Leafs have who could impart any of these things, is someone that doesn't fit into the team's system and will either be the 7th man, traded or bought out.
Gardiner played like a young star last season. Despite his offensive abilities, he still makes the mistake of forgetting that as a defenseman, even an offensive one, his primary duty is to prevent plays and goals from being scored against his team. That was the reason he sat so much of last season after the injury. Because his skating wasn't back to normal and couldn't mask all of his defensive deficiencies.
Once those are taken care of, he'll be a great player to watch, even if he tones down his offensive play.
I can definitely see him play on the first pair sometime down the line (maybe 2 years), and will hope to see him on the 2nd line this season with a more conservative player next to him.
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