Jokerit 17/18 - Scooters Gonna Scoot

[vorky]

It seems your English skills fail you again. The employer trying to prevent the employee from switching jobs is sort of against labour laws in Finland for example. Thus, against laws/rregulations. Few teams decline out clauses because they know other teams won't.

IIHF is not going to "fix" anything until the clubs start demanding it. And if they do, the various player associations would counter it by taking it EU court which tends to favor the employee.

It is not funny anymore, man. We have discussed this "labout movement" thing many times, you should realise that you are wrong.

A clause is an agreement between a player and a club. Nobody is trying to prevent anybody from anything. Both sides agree with a clause, that is their voluntary decision. How can it be against laws? You should hire a lawyer to explain this to you.

And again, your EU courts. Perhaps, you will be suprised, and maybe not. I just describe a soccer system. I do not understand how the same rules would be illegal in hockey.

All problem of a discussion about labour movement is that you do not understand the issue.

 

[Jussi]

It is not funny anymore, man. We have discussed this "labout movement" thing many times, you should realise that you are wrong.

A clause is an agreement between a player and a club. Nobody is trying to prevent anybody from anything. Both sides agree with a clause, that is their voluntary decision. How can it be against laws? You should hire a lawyer to explain this to you.

And again, your EU courts. Perhaps, you will be suprised, and maybe not. I just describe a soccer system. I do not understand how the same rules would be illegal in hockey.

All problem of a discussion about labour movement is that you do not understand the issue.

I was talking leaguewide limits. Because there is CBA between the Finnish league and PA (they are currently negotiating a new one). any leaguewide decision making would have to include the PA and there is no way the PA would agree to such limits. I would imagine the situation would be similar in Sweden.

 

[vorky]

I was talking leaguewide limits. Because there is CBA between the Finnish league and PA (they are currently negotiating a new one). any leaguewide decision making would have to include the PA and there is no way the PA would agree to such limits. I would imagine the situation would be similar in Sweden.

I give you an advice. Try to understand the post before replying. If you do not do that, your reply is about an issue which is not discussed.

 

[Jussi]

I give you an advice. Try to understand the post before replying. If you do not do that, your reply is about an issue which is not discussed.

It's clearly you who doesn't understand the issue here. You want either the IIHF or federations/leagues to stop out-clauses for KHL and even NHL. It's been explained to you for several years why it's not going to happen.

 

[vorky]

It's clearly you who doesn't understand the issue here. You want either the IIHF or federations/leagues to stop out-clauses for KHL and even NHL. It's been explained to you for several years why it's not going to happen for reasons also explained to you several times before.

No, I do not want it. I want out-clauses which are balanced.

I also say that current transfer system is broken, unbalanced. Status quo is good for players and the NHL, in some degree for the KHL. On the other hand, it is really bad for other European leagues/clubs, who are only losers of the system. You are fine with it, I am not.

 

[Jussi]

No, I do not want it. I want out-clauses which are balanced.

I also say that current transfer system is broken, unbalanced. Status quo is good for players and the NHL, in some degree for the KHL. On the other hand, it is really bad for other European leagues/clubs, who are only losers of the system. You are fine with it, I am not.

They current system favour the KHL heavily as their clubs are getting palyers mostly free where as the NHL pays the same price for every player. I've mentioned it for several years ago already the KHL out-clauses where if a player uses it before certain date, can exit his club for free, are becoming the norm.

I've also said that I'm not fine with, I'm merely accepting the reality that there's very little that can be done to change the situation. There's nothing European federations have to leverage the NHL with and the same goes pretty much with the KHL.

 

[Toro2017]

I give you an advice. Try to understand the post before replying. If you do not do that, your reply is about an issue which is not discussed.

It seems to me that Jussi is right and you are wrong. In current situation the teams are basicly forced to give players those "out causes", because if they don't, then some other team in the same league will. If teams want to get out of the current situation, they have to agree on it atleast leaguewide, if not nationalwide or even on IIHF level. And if teams in any EU league would make such agreement and go public on it, then the players assosiation in that country would probably challenge it and so it would become "labour movement issue".

Couple of years ago there was this scandal in Finland about Michael Keränen (if I remember the name correctly). He was kicked out of Jokerit and Liiga team Ilves decided to hire him. Later it became public that Ilves was fined (about 100.000 €) from Liiga, for doing that. At the time many layers told in finnish media that such fine (or agreement behind it) would probably be illeagal, if challenged in finnish courts. At the time finnish PA send the case to market court (or something like that) but no verdict ever came out of it, so maybe there were some settlement or maybe they are still on it.

 

[vorky]

They current system favour the KHL heavily as their clubs are getting clubs mostly free where as the NHL pays the same price for every player. I've mentioned it for several years ago already the KHL out-clauses where if a player uses it before certain date, can exit his club for free, are becoming the norm.

I've also said that I'm not fine with, I'm merely accepting the reality that there's very little that can be done to change the situation. There's nothing European federations have to leverage the NHL with and the same goes pretty much with the KHL.

The KHL is not "getting clubs mostly free." I would say the KHL is not getting clubs at all.

To be more serious. Medvedev once said, "do you want the NHL to grab Russian market as is doing with Europe?"

Of course, there is little that can be done to change this situation when the NHL has been bribing European hockey executives for decades.

 

[vorky]

It seems to me that Jussi is right and you are wrong. In current situation the teams are basicly forced to give players those "out causes", because if they don't, then some other team in the same league will. If teams want to get out of the current situation, they have to agree on it atleast leaguewide, if not nationalwide or even on IIHF level. And if teams in any EU league would make such agreement and go public on it, then the players assosiation in that country would probably challenge it and so it would become "labour movement issue".

I have no problem with out-clauses, I have problem with unbalanced out-clauses. There is a question if such out-clauses-for-free are legal.

Couple of years ago there was this scandal in Finland about Michael Keränen (if I remember the name correctly). He was kicked out of Jokerit and Liiga team Ilves decided to hire him. Later it became public that Ilves was fined (about 100.000 €) from Liiga, for doing that. At the time many layers told in finnish media that such fine (or agreement behind it) would probably be illeagal, if challenged in finnish courts. At the time finnish PA send the case to market court (or something like that) but no verdict ever came out of it, so maybe there were some settlement or maybe they are still on it.

Do you know what would be funny? If Jokerit goes to the court against the Liiga.

Another funny story, a bit complicated due to Swiss law, would be the IIHF rule that a club can not join a league of another country without permission of domestic hockey federation.

Another funny story would be the KHL RFA system, but again, a bit complicated due to Russian law.

 

[Jussi]

I have no problem with out-clauses, I have problem with unbalanced out-clauses. There is a question if such out-clauses-for-free are legal.

Do you know what would be funny? If Jokerit goes to the court against the Liiga.

They are perfectly legal because they help labour movement.

It wouldn't make sense for Jokerit to go to court against Liiga on that matter. They have nothing to gain.

 

[Toro2017]

I have no problem with out-clauses, I have problem with unbalanced out-clauses. There is a question if such out-clauses-for-free are legal.

Why would those out-clauses-for-free not be legal? If both party agree to it? It does not go against the freedom of movement for labour. From what point of view it could be considered not legal?

Do you know what would be funny? If Jokerit goes to the court against the Liiga.

Another funny story, a bit complicated due to Swiss law, would be the IIHF rule that a club can not join a league of another country without permission of domestic hockey federation.

Another funny story would be the KHL RFA system, but again, a bit complicated due to Russian law.

We could list a million things that would be funny but not relevant. But why would we do it? would it not be just a waste of time? Jokerit could go to the court against Liiga, but for some reason they have not done that. KHL could go to the court (for example) against swedish hockey federation and might even win for the "AIK case", but again they have not done that. Why? Because Putin is firstly and mostly a fan of the national team of russia and if there were to become some problems with other federations in Europe, russian national team might find them self playing against other russian teams. Would not serve Russia, so probably will not happen.

 

[vorky]

They are perfectly legal because they help labour movement.

I am fine if you think, I talked about this,

 

[vorky]

Why would those out-clauses-for-free not be legal? If both party agree to it? It does not go against the freedom of movement for labour. From what point of view it could be considered not legal?

Just guessing, nothing serious. Every contract needs to be balanced. Second, you or Jussi said the clubs are forced to give out-clause.

We could list a million things that would be funny but not relevant. But why would we do it? would it not be just a waste of time? Jokerit could go to the court against Liiga, but for some reason they have not done that. KHL could go to the court (for example) against swedish hockey federation and might even win for the "AIK case", but again they have not done that. Why? Because Putin is firstly and mostly a fan of the national team of russia and if there were to become some problems with other federations in Europe, russian national team might find them self playing against other russian teams. Would not serve Russia, so probably will not happen.

I do not understand your argument with Putin.

And I do not understand why should the KHL go to court against Swedish Hockey Federation.

 

[Jussi]

I am fine if you think, I talked about this,

Quoted sentence doesn't make any sense.

 

[Jussi]

Just guessing, nothing serious. Every contract needs to be balanced. Second, you or Jussi said the clubs are forced to give out-clause.

By the market. Are you deliberately not reading posts entirely or do you have trouble with reading comprehension re: the English language?

 

[Toro2017]

Just guessing, nothing serious. Every contract needs to be balanced. Second, you or Jussi said the clubs are forced to give out-clause.

I said that they are basicly forced, because if they would not do it, then some other team will. The only way to stop it, would be a deal with all the teams in the same league not to do so. But again that would be considered illegal in EU area, so they can not do it or if they do, they wound have to make it in secret. And for example in Liiga case, same kind of deal became public after all (Michael Keränen case).

I do not understand your argument with Putin.

And I do not understand why should the KHL go to court against Swedish Hockey Federation.

Well I am not from Russia, so I don't know how things works in there, but I been told that if one would do something that Putin does not want, then he would probably be in troubles. I been also told that Putin is first of all a fan of the national team of Russia, so every big hockey decisions in Russia should serve the cause of Russian national team or atleast not go against it.

So if KHL wants AIK and would go to court about it, I think that they might have a chance to win (if AIK would also want to go). But in that AIK case KHL told that they would not accept team from Sweden, if there is no permission from swedish hockey federation. And why is this so important? Because if there is to be some conflict with swedish hockey federation, it might backfire on russian hockey federation through IIHF and in that case would not serve the team that is number 1 for Putin.

 

[vorky]

I said that they are basicly forced, because if they would not do it, then some other team will. The only way to stop it, would be a deal with all the teams in the same league not to do so. But again that would be considered illegal in EU area, so they can not do it or if they do, they wound have to make it in secret. And for example in Liiga case, same kind of deal became public after all (Michael Keränen case).

That is fine.

Well I am not from Russia, so I don't know how things works in there, but I been told that if one would do something that Putin does not want, then he would probably be in troubles. I been also told that Putin is first of all a fan of the national team of Russia, so every big hockey decisions in Russia should serve the cause of Russian national team or atleast not go against it.

So if KHL wants AIK and would go to court about it, I think that they might have a chance to win (if AIK would also want to go). But in that AIK case KHL told that they would not accept team from Sweden, if there is no permission from swedish hockey federation. And why is this so important? Because if there is to be some conflict with swedish hockey federation, it might backfire on russian hockey federation through IIHF and in that case would not serve the team that is number 1 for Putin.

It is great you have been told such stories.

The KHL said this (a persmission) because of the IIHF rules which was adopted a few years ago.

 

[Toro2017]

The KHL said this (a persmission) because of the IIHF rules which was adopted a few years ago.

Ok, do you have anykind of link to any article about those new rules and when IIHF adopted them? Because I have been under the impression that any european icehockey club team that wishes to go and play in foreign league, would have needed the permission from local and that foreign hockey federation (where that team wishes to play). I mean even before KHL times. Some finnish and swedish teams planned pan european league before KHL and even then local federations stopped those attempts.

 

[vorky]

Ok, do you have anykind of link to any article about those new rules and when IIHF adopted them? Because I have been under the impression that any european icehockey club team that wishes to go and play in foreign league, would have needed the permission from local and that foreign hockey federation (where that team wishes to play). I mean even before KHL times. Some finnish and swedish teams planned pan european league before KHL and even then local federations stopped those attempts.

I have a screen from the Crowns press conference, just note it has bad resolution, maybe you are able to google better one. See.

Crowns are reffering to the IIHF Bylaws 501. If you read the IIHF Bylaws, current version here, you can see the cross-border leagues rule. This version of the IIHF Bylaws was adopted in 2014. You can compare it with 2012-2014 version, the cross-border rule is there, see. If we look at the IIHF Bylaws 2008-2012 (amended 2011), we can not find anything about cross-border rule (article 301 or find a term "cross" or "border"), see. If you find anything about cross-border rule in 2008-2012 version, let me know.

 

[Jussi]

Jokerit still haven't paid all the salaries owed to the players: Jokerien pelaajien palkat yhä rästissä – suomalaispankit eivät halua välittää oligarkkien rahoja

CEO Kohonen admits that they've paid some payments but not all salaries. Somewhat stunningly he doesn't understand why the banks don't want to transfer the money from the Russian owners. Gee, I wonder could it possibly be because they're on sanctions list and banks have to verify that none of the cash is coming from them?!?

 

[Kshahdoo]

It looks like Jokerit has found a way to get money, so they sign three new players... Jokerit.com

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Good signing by Jokerit. Btw, isn't it time to open a new thread for the new season?

 

[Jussi]

It looks like Jokerit has found a way to get money, so they sign three new players... Jokerit.com

They're not getting paid until the season starts. CEO Kohonen stated a couple of days ago that Jokerit are trying to get new sponsors so that they can pay the salaries. So one of those sponsors happens to be Nornickel whose owner happen to be Oleg Deripaska and Roman Abramovich. Deripaska is also on sanctions list...

Räsänen did not get signed by Toronto, also didn't make the squad at the last U-20 WJC. At the U-18 WJC he seemed dodgy defensively and not the smoothest skater. Supposedly the skatings improved but I guess not enough to get Toronto to sign him.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Lineup ?

Lepistö - Kivistö
Lundin - Lööv
Jensen - Lauridsen

Jensen - Regin - Joensuu
O'Neill - Ikonen - Moses
Manninen - Norman - Jormakka
Philström - Niemi - Anttila

 

[powerplaymaker]

Lineup ?

Lepistö - Kivistö
Lundin - Lööv
Jensen - Lauridsen

Jensen - Regin - Joensuu
O'Neill - Ikonen - Moses
Manninen - Norman - Jormakka
Philström - Niemi - Anttila

Thats something to start with. I'd change O'Neill to center cos he played that position the whole season.

We are still wating news regarding N.Jensens option for the next season. Also Rämös situation is still open.

Ikonen and Jormakka, possibly also Manninen, are headin' down the depth chart when Jokerit publishes the rest of the team.

A few big signings still to come.