Proposal: Johnsson or Hyman for Braun as a base for a deal

[Bizz]

No he wouldn’t. Both a healthy Thornton and Couture are better than him.

a healthy Thornton is better than Tavares or Matthews, let alone Kadri.

 

[olli]

a healthy Thornton is better than Tavares or Matthews, let alone Kadri.

The last time he was on Matthews/ Tavares’ current level was in 15-16. You mean to say he’s been injured since then?

 

[zeke]

Braun is good for 20 mins a night and ~20 pts a season playing against an opponents toughest competition. He starts a good majority of his shifts in the defensive zone and has been a plus-defender for the past five years.

Sharks have used him exclusively with Vlasic as a shut down pairing the past few years.

Y'all can have your opinions about his abilities, but NHL coaches have shown that they trust him against the other teams best forwards.

He'd certainly be in your top-four (depending on the pairing).

absolutely Braun gets crushing usage. he and vlasic are the toughest usage pairing in hockey, by opponents' ice time.

BUT, he really doesn't hack it in that kind of usage.

Here are the top 5 toughest usage dmen in hockey the past 2yrs, and their possession numbers:

1.Vlasic 48.9cf% (-3.5rel), 51.2xgf% (-1.4rel)
2.Braun 47.0cf% (-6.2rel), 50.3xgf% (-2.8rel)
3.Letang 54.2cf% (+4.0rel), 54.3xgf% (+1.9rel)
4.Rielly 50.8cf% (+0.6rel), 50.1xgf% (-1.1rel)
5.Keith 50.8cf% (-0.6rel), 47.4xgf% (-2.9rel)

now vlasic we know is good, and his slightly below par possession is probably understandable given his usage....but Braun is a whole other level down, and it looks to me like he's bringing vlasic's numbers down.

now Braun might look like a positive player in easier 2nd pair usage, but there's no guarantee of that. he could easily be as forgettable as Alzner was this year in a much lesser role - I.e. a borderline top 4 dman at best.

As for Kadri being the Sharks #1C...

Last 2yrs, plain production:

Kadri (28): 162gms, 16:40, 64gls (24pp), 116pts (36pp) - 82gms, 32gls (12pp), 59pts (18pp)
Couture (29): 151gms, 18:06, 59gls (21pp), 113pts (37pp) - 82gms, 32gls (11pp), 61pts (20pp)
Thornton (39): 126gms, 18:10, 20gls (8pp), 86pts (37pp) - 82gms, 13gls (5pp), 56pts (24pp)

Advanced

Kadri (28): ES 13:58 (A qoc), 1.96p/60, 1.51p1/60, 49.8cf% (-0.6rel), 50.6xgf% (-0.6rel) / PP 2:06 6.33p/60, 5.28p1/60
Couture (29): ES 13:04 (A- qoc), 1.89p60, 1.70p1/60, 50.1cf% (-1.6rel), 50.6xgf% (-1.7rel) / PP 3:00, 4.79p/60, 3.86p1/60
Thornton (39): ES 14:06 (A qoc), 1.36p60, 0.82p1/60, 53.5cf% (+2.9rel), 52.9xgf% (+1.3rel) / PP 3:20, 5.17p60, 2.44p1/60


So we see that both Kadri and Thornton have had legit #1C usage, while Couture trails them in both ice time and quality of competition in more of a 2nd line role.

Despite the easier usage, Couture and produces less at even strength and has worse possession. Kadri also outproduces him on the PP. the only reason why the top line numbers are close is because Couture gets much more PP time.

Thornton to his credit is still a possession beast, but his production has completely fallen off a cliff and is nowhere near the other two offensively at this point.

It's pretty clear that Kadri is the best combination of production and possession relative to toughness of usage of the three. He's also the youngest.

 

[iBELEAF]

no to braun

 

[Fogelhund]

no to braun

Agreed

 

[hector morrison]

Hyman is all but untouchable, I can’t see him getting moved any time soon

May do something around Johnsson but not sure if Braun would be that significant of an upgrade at this point. We have an abundance of bottom 4 dmen and need a top pair guy to Compliment Rielly

Because of Babs? Or because you feel he is so valuable? What do think the return would be for Zach?

 

[FreeVille]

absolutely Braun gets crushing usage. he and vlasic are the toughest usage pairing in hockey, by opponents' ice time.

BUT, he really doesn't hack it in that kind of usage.

Here are the top 5 toughest usage dmen in hockey the past 2yrs, and their possession numbers:

1.Vlasic 48.9cf% (-3.5rel), 51.2xgf% (-1.4rel)
2.Braun 47.0cf% (-6.2rel), 50.3xgf% (-2.8rel)
3.Letang 54.2cf% (+4.0rel), 54.3xgf% (+1.9rel)
4.Rielly 50.8cf% (+0.6rel), 50.1xgf% (-1.1rel)
5.Keith 50.8cf% (-0.6rel), 47.4xgf% (-2.9rel)

now vlasic we know is good, and his slightly below par possession is probably understandable given his usage....but Braun is a whole other level down, and it looks to me like he's bringing vlasic's numbers down.

now Braun might look like a positive player in easier 2nd pair usage, but there's no guarantee of that. he could easily be as forgettable as Alzner was this year in a much lesser role - I.e. a borderline top 4 dman at best.

I agree that Braun tends to bring Vlasic down, but I'd argue that Braun is still amongst the top-echelon of defensive defenseman. Will more sheltered minutes bring his production up? You're right, there's no guarantee. And he could very well end up as another Alzner. But as of right now, Braun is a solid top-four defensive defenseman that has experience playing against the other teams top lines. To get rid of him for a middle-six winger, after a career-year, is not a smart trade.

Last 2yrs, plain production:

Kadri (28): 162gms, 16:40, 64gls (24pp), 116pts (36pp) - 82gms, 32gls (12pp), 59pts (18pp)
Couture (29): 151gms, 18:06, 59gls (21pp), 113pts (37pp) - 82gms, 32gls (11pp), 61pts (20pp)
Thornton (39): 126gms, 18:10, 20gls (8pp), 86pts (37pp) - 82gms, 13gls (5pp), 56pts (24pp)

Advanced

Kadri (28): ES 13:58 (A qoc), 1.96p/60, 1.51p1/60, 49.8cf% (-0.6rel), 50.6xgf% (-0.6rel) / PP 2:06 6.33p/60, 5.28p1/60
Couture (29): ES 13:04 (A- qoc), 1.89p60, 1.70p1/60, 50.1cf% (-1.6rel), 50.6xgf% (-1.7rel) / PP 3:00, 4.79p/60, 3.86p1/60
Thornton (39): ES 14:06 (A qoc), 1.36p60, 0.82p1/60, 53.5cf% (+2.9rel), 52.9xgf% (+1.3rel) / PP 3:20, 5.17p60, 2.44p1/60


So we see that both Kadri and Thornton have had legit #1C usage, while Couture trails them in both ice time and quality of competition in more of a 2nd line role.

Despite the easier usage, Couture and produces less at even strength and has worse possession. Kadri also outproduces him on the PP. the only reason why the top line numbers are close is because Couture gets much more PP time.

Thornton to his credit is still a possession beast, but his production has completely fallen off a cliff and is nowhere near the other two offensively at this point.

It's pretty clear that Kadri is the best combination of production and possession relative to toughness of usage of the three. He's also the youngest.

Couture also plays against the other teams top lines (not to sound like a broken record). And the PP is run through him or Burns (as in they're the ones taking the shot or QB'ing the play), but it's mostly Burns with Couture acting as the decoy (or go-to if the other team cheats and commits to 88 shooting). I'd say Couture is an high-level 2C or a low-level 1C with a strong defensive game.

As for Thornton, keep in mind that he's blown out both of his knees the past two seasons--and he consistently plays through severe injuries. The year the Sharks went to the cup he put up a PPG at the age of 36. Do I expect him to continue to do so? No. But he's the leader in SJ, he makes others better, and he (fairly) consistently shows flashes of his old-self. As long as he's on the Sharks, he'll play on the top line.

So don't get me wrong, I'd be more than happy with Kadri on my team. And I'd be more than okay with Couture or Kadri on my second line--or third for that matter. But the Western Conference is a-whole-nother league compared to the Eastern Conference, and Couture has proven himself in the WC.

But based on SJ's non-need to trade Braun, and his proven ability to play in a shut-down role, I would entertain a trade offer for Kadri and not one of the wingers proposed in the original post.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Because of Babs? Or because you feel he is so valuable? What do think the return would be for Zach?

100% Babs, although he is a good player to have around. I’m not sure what I’d ask for to be honest, he’s one of those guys that’s more valuable to your team than the return

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Nope. Sharks need C and nothing but C.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I have a lot of time for Kadri but a big L O L to the idea that he’d be our #1C.

 

[hector morrison]

100% Babs, although he is a good player to have around. I’m not sure what I’d ask for to be honest, he’s one of those guys that’s more valuable to your team than the return

I rag on Hyman cause he has less offensive skill than is expected of a Top line winger...it was on display again last night! That said ,he has value,he has a good motor,gotta like that! The blame is definitely Babs ,He made a point of reminding the media that there was "3rd player on theline,named Hyman" . I had to laugh,thinking,Why does have to constantly keep reminding everyone of Hymans existence? I thought Hyman sucked on that line,Blew a breakaway,missed on a set-up from Marner,a couple of blind passes,typical Hyman stuff! Babs is out to lunch on this. Hyman must have something on him!

 

[seanlinden]

But based on SJ's non-need to trade Braun, and his proven ability to play in a shut-down role, I would entertain a trade offer for Kadri and not one of the wingers proposed in the original post.

This really sums up this thread....

The Leafs have (arguably) the 2nd best 1-2 punch, and probably the 2nd best 1-2-3 punch down the middle in Tavares/Matthews/Kadri. After that, it falls off quite dramatically. Toronto's goaltending is definitely high-quality average, and shouldn't hinder them. While the D is obviously the weak-point, they'll still be weak if they get Braun... so it makes no sense for them to subtract from the part of their team (centre) that's going to have to carry them to success.

Meanwhile, on the flip side, San Jose boasts (IMO) the best top 4 in the league. They've got similar high-quality goaltending. Sure, their offensive depth is a little shallow, but they're not going to subtract from the position that's going to carry them, to add a tweener 2nd/3rd line winger. For a bonafide-top 6 guy? or over-the-top 3rd line centre? sure, but the Leafs aren't trading Marleau, Marner, Nylander, or Kadri for him, and there's a fairly substantial drop-off after those 4.

 

[JeremyTB]

Braun is not a #1 or #2 dman but could very well be one of the best #5 Dmen in the NHL and that's the role he will be in this season. So no reason for the Sharks to trade him right now. They still have him under contract through the 2020 season. They could trade him in the next off season if they need to free up cap space. And Hyman wouldn't make the Sharks top 9 this season. If the Sharks need anybody it's a 3rd line center. But they might possibly go with Hertl in that role if neccesary since he is a natural center.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Sharks have little need for a winger, and would likely be most interested in moving Braun for quality C (as others have said)

I’m positive the Sharks would be extremely interested in Kadri - he’s a fantastic player and more than capable of filling their hole at C. And I happen to believe that Braun would make an excellent addition to the Leafs D corps - adding low drama defensive stability to the Leafs top 4.

But this is just not a match for these teams, firstly Kadi’s contract is simply far more valuable than Braun’s (though Braun also has a team friendly contract - the contribution/cap-hit disparity is not nearly to the degree that Kadri’s is), has more term, and is in the heart of Kadri’s prime production years vs. Braun’s 31-32 aged seasons.

Sharks would have to add SIGNIFICANTLY to Braun to even sniff a deal for Kadri. Dubas is no Pierre Dorion. Conversely, none of Toronto’s remaining movable players are of much interest to the Sharks (Kapanen would be interesting, but unlikely movable for the same reasons I’m interested in him).

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

We will just give them Hyman and in return a medium double double and a box of timbits.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

I rag on Hyman cause he has less offensive skill than is expected of a Top line winger...it was on display again last night! That said ,he has value,he has a good motor,gotta like that! The blame is definitely Babs ,He made a point of reminding the media that there was "3rd player on theline,named Hyman" . I had to laugh,thinking,Why does have to constantly keep reminding everyone of Hymans existence? I thought Hyman sucked on that line,Blew a breakaway,missed on a set-up from Marner,a couple of blind passes,typical Hyman stuff! Babs is out to lunch on this. Hyman must have something on him!

Hyman - Kadri - Kapanen needs to be a thing imo

 

[CapnZin]

Leafs need a 2nd /3rd pairing RD and Sharks need a middle 6 LW to solidify their top 9. Who adds?

Middle 6 insinuates the ability to play well with competition in a 2W or 3W fashion. Hyman and Johnsson, at this time and place, don’t really fit that bill a whole lot. Hyman you can make the argument for, but Johnsson has to be in the NHL to make that case.

Hyman would most likely slot in a 3W checking role while Johnsson wouldn’t make some teams in a number of cases... he’s good, but a M6 player is not his suit.

 

[Mattb124]

The Sharks do not need wingers, they need a 3C.

 

[Sota Popinski]

Braun I might say is a solid #4. maybe.

as for Kadri, he'd be the sharks #1C.

Kadri isn't better than Thornton and damn sure isn't better than Couture

 

[olli]

Middle 6 insinuates the ability to play well with competition in a 2W or 3W fashion. Hyman and Johnsson, at this time and place, don’t really fit that bill a whole lot. Hyman you can make the argument for, but Johnsson has to be in the NHL to make that case.

Hyman would most likely slot in a 3W checking role while Johnsson wouldn’t make some teams in a number of cases... he’s good, but a M6 player is not his suit.

Yes it is his suit. He has a much higher ceiling than human. A m6 role is perfect for johnsson.

 

[CapnZin]

Yes it is his suit. He has a much higher ceiling than human. A m6 role is perfect for johnsson.

Typically with M6 roles... the ceiling is that of a 2A and he floor being a 3B/4A (4A at the low end of the spectrum). You see most M6 players as a 2B/3A. That’s the general area.

Hymans ceiling isn’t a bonafide 2nd line winger. He’s more or less you modern NHL checking 3W.

I completely agree with you that Johnson’s a diamond in the rough with a higher ceiling. He more or less projects, hopefully higher, but realistically, as a lower 3A... maybe a very low end 2B if he pans out.

Edit: I’m not trying to degrade him in anyway. I just think if he reaches his ceiling, he’s a low end M6 player. That’s nothing to gawk at.

Sorry for all the editing... but let’s look at M6 wingers: Wayne Simmonds (2B), Patric Hornquvist (2B), Vincent Trochek (2A/1B), Bo Horvat (2B... 2A), Jakub Voracek (1B/2A), Kyle Turris (2B), Tomas Hertl (2B), Alex Tuch (2B) HIGH END | LOWER END JG Pageau (2B/3A), Victor Rask (3A), Sam Bennett (3A), Kyle Okposo (2B/3A), Brock Nelson (2B), etc...

Comparables: Conor Sheary, Jared McCan, Jordan Weal, Nick Shore, Vladimir Sobotka, Michael Ferland

Most of these players are bonafide 2nd line wingers (not comparables) that could play 1st mine roles... I’m not mixing up the valuation, but based off of skill/role... these players slot in as M6/T6 players.

Some of those projections aren’t 100% accurate because the valuing is generalized, but you should get the point. We tend to completely overstate and overvalue some players based on menial projections. If Johnsson turns out to be like some of those players you’re describing him (or comparatively), then the leafs hit a home run.

 

[ER89]

a healthy Thornton is better than Tavares or Matthews, let alone Kadri.

Well you certainly fought stupid with stupid.

 

[IPS]

Leafs fans never change
No chance that gets Braun

I can assure you that @olli is the furthest thing from a Leafs fan. His intention with this thread was obvious.

 

[IPS]

No he wouldn’t. Both a healthy Thornton and Couture are better than him.

Couture, sure.

Thornton? Be real please, he had 36 points in 47 games last year and 50 points in 79 games the year before. Really, how is 39 year old Thornton with replaced knees really going to be? Putting all bias aside, I guarantee Kadri would fit the Sharks better than current Thornton right now.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Why are people so obsessed with trading a #5 or lower D to the Leafs? If it's not a top pairing RD on a Cup winning roster they are not interested.