He definitely has the tools. I never doubted his mental makeup, ever since he took over during the Bruins series i though he was mature beyond his years and looked ready for the # 1 job. Ehh who knows, a lot has to do with luck as well. Sometimes things just go your way, sometimes they don't. It happens all the time, one guy gets 10 quality shots and gets 0 goals and another takes a flukey little shot and its game winner. Same things with goalies i suppose. They all make the effort to be there to make a save, sometimes you will be lucky, sometimes not.
Player Discussion John Carlson - Vol. 1
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Holtby hasnt been there for all the failures, and neither has Carlson. Assuredly not this version of Carlson.
I think this may be the year. I honestly do. You can be jaded fan, I can be rose coloured glasses fan. I am fine with that
They did but the difference is their core is composed of 2 people, Crosby and Malkin. Both their management and their fanbase is fully prepared to dump any other player on the team in the search for Stanley Cup.
I swear, we have a core of 9+ players. Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Oshie, Carlson, Niskanen, Orlov, Beagle, Wilson, Holtby. There's probably more. All are untouchable.
I remember another poster making a suggestions regarding an Alzner trade two years ago. I don't know if that poster survived the night. How dare he? Heart and soul, glue, kills penalties. Indispensable. We could have made out like bandits on an Alzner trade. Instead we kept him until he was literally costing us games and of he went to UFA.
There are ways to alter team culture, on-ice play and key personnel without going through a rebuild. Fix the cap problem while we are at it, too.
Meh. I do not think many on here would have a problem with some hockey trades. I know I wouldnt be. I dont want to sell off assets for futures. Not with Ovechkin at 32. Unless the plan is to trade him too.
The core is Ovechkin and Backstrom. The rest have been parts moving around them. I've pushed for OEL, for Karlsson, for Tavares. I'm open to anything.
I'm just not open to a rebuild. I dont think thats an unfair commentary. Especially with a current team that is top 5 in overall NHL standings. Thinking that this team (name me more than 5 better all time Caps teams? For sure 2015, 2016...maybe 2010, 1986, 1992? not 1998...) cant do it is just negative Caps fandom.
hb12xchamps
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They couldn't get it done yes, but saying they couldn't even get close makes no sense. They lost both seasons to the eventual Stanley Cup Champion in 6 and 7 games respectively. That's pretty damn close in my book.
Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury were definitely the core until Murray came in and outplayed Fleury. Only reason they dumped Fleury is because they couldn't fit him and Murray under the cap and stay competitive. They dealt with it when the time came to move on. It's not our time to move on from Carlson like it was to move on from Alzner and Green.
CapitalsCupReality
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I'm not against reshaping the core. Vrana looks like he's going to be a solid addition to that. Djoos looks capable but still a 4/5 at best IMO on a deep contender.
Who's your offseason big trade then Traparatus? Which core Cap are you trading without debilitating the team instantly?
Who's your offseason big trade then Traparatus? Which core Cap are you trading without debilitating the team instantly?
That's one thing we can fully agree on. I have no interest in a rebuild either. I have one untouchable player on this team - Ovechkin. Anyone else is fair game but not in a rebuild scenario.
I tried suggesting using Beagle to recoup some picks or upgrade bottom pair defense, on account that we are misusing Stephenson. Can't do it, he is indispensable. Ironically, everyone is perfectly comfortable slotting Stephenson into that spot for next year to accommodate Carlson's new contract.
To get this back to Carlson, I just don't want any more Oshie type contracts. Oshie was my second favorite player on the team, now I can't even enjoy watching him play. All I can think about is how crippling and ridiculous that contract is.
That's what we are heading for with Carlson. He is pacing for a career year in scoring, playing more minutes than ever, he's been underpaid for years, the cap is going up and there is nothing but garbage for RD on the free agent market. Sad irony that having the best chance of his career to win a Stanley Cup did not motivate him to perform as well as having an expiring contract does.
I've said this at the beginning of the thread. $7m for 6 years, no contract clauses. Anything above that and Carlson can GTFO. If I see another absurd 8 year contract for something like $8m per, I will cry on the inside.
The most valuable and trade-able asset that we have is Backstrom. Sweetheart contract for 2 more years, insane demand for #1 centers around the league and we have the depth to downgrade on Backstrom.
Let's do a mental exercise. To keep this recent, let's replace Backstrom with Turris, who was recently available. Are we a worse team? Sure, on paper. But on paper a Caps teams led by Backstrom was supposed to win the Cup last year. Are we still a playoff team? Absolutely. Turris, Kuznetsov, Eller, Stephenson center group is one of the best in the league.
What's the difference in trade value between Backstrom and Turris? It's massive. We could probably get a decent replacement for Carlson and a good prospect to go along with a player like Turris.
As an added bonus, we wash out some of the stench of failure of seasons past.
twabby
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Carlson and Oshie aren't really comparable at all. Oshie is 3 years older, has a more comprehensive injury history, plays a style that lends itself to more injuries, and plays a position that tends to favor younger players. Carlson is still in his prime for a defenseman, has had one major injury that seemed to linger but he seems to be over it, and rarely takes big hits. He's not Mike Green getting wrecked every game, he's smart about his body seemingly. Also he's stepped up his game most postseasons, which may just be a product of good fortune but either way shouldn't be ignored.
I've kind of settled on the idea that Carlson is a very good defenseman but he isn't able to drag bad partners to good on-ice results like a Doughty or Karlsson are able to do. He's been anchored to Orpik and Alzner for most of his career (with a sprinkle of Schultz, Erskine, and other lugs) and he's still been pretty good in those minutes. When he's been away from those guys he's been dynamite, including this season with Djoos. If Djoos continues to impress and they re-sign Carlson they have a very formidable top 4 going into next season with every opportunity to make smart moves to round out their defense.
$7M+ might be a slight overpay but what do you do with that $7M you save? Spend it on building the depth? Cool, now you have a glaring hole at 1/2D and PP1. Saving cap space by not overpaying is good, but you can easily do that by not overpaying the depth players. That means goodbye to Beagle ($1M savings on a 4C), goodbye to Orpik (probably like $1.5M+ in savings in a buyout + replacement cost, possibly more if you can trade him), goodbye perhaps to Burakovsky if he can't get it together (a few million in savings on a 3W), etc. Don't skimp on your #1/#2D unless you are bringing in Erik Karlsson or similar magically somehow.
I've kind of settled on the idea that Carlson is a very good defenseman but he isn't able to drag bad partners to good on-ice results like a Doughty or Karlsson are able to do. He's been anchored to Orpik and Alzner for most of his career (with a sprinkle of Schultz, Erskine, and other lugs) and he's still been pretty good in those minutes. When he's been away from those guys he's been dynamite, including this season with Djoos. If Djoos continues to impress and they re-sign Carlson they have a very formidable top 4 going into next season with every opportunity to make smart moves to round out their defense.
$7M+ might be a slight overpay but what do you do with that $7M you save? Spend it on building the depth? Cool, now you have a glaring hole at 1/2D and PP1. Saving cap space by not overpaying is good, but you can easily do that by not overpaying the depth players. That means goodbye to Beagle ($1M savings on a 4C), goodbye to Orpik (probably like $1.5M+ in savings in a buyout + replacement cost, possibly more if you can trade him), goodbye perhaps to Burakovsky if he can't get it together (a few million in savings on a 3W), etc. Don't skimp on your #1/#2D unless you are bringing in Erik Karlsson or similar magically somehow.
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People got upset over a suggestion to trade Beagle? Couldnt have been many people, and I am a huge Beagle guy. Up until this year, I was thinking he was seriously under utilized. He's fallen apart this season.
I think they need a better 6th D. Beagle contract going out makes some sense (as does Grubauer and/or Connolly) to get a better 6th D.
I like Carlson. If he gets 8yrs/7.5m, thats fine. I'd prefer 6.75m for that term, but whatever. 8/8 would be a LOT, but its def possible.
CapitalsCupReality
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Were you belly aching about Oshie before he got hurt and his game went in the tank, when he put up 10g/22pts in the first 26 games, or were you only thinking about crippling contracts after he got concussed and started struggling? I mean come on....dude got wrecked. He'll rebound. I don't want to see Carlson getting an 8 year $8 deal either. 6-7 @7-7.5 likely. Maybe they can offer the max term for a friendly cap hit, who knows?
Beagle isn't returning JACK IMO. Backstrom makes the most sense to me if they poop the bed again this postseason, but I don't think a Backstrom trade is going to return a capable Carlson step-in PLUS a Turris level 2C. Just don't see it. I'd love to be wrong. Backstrom's real $ owed the next two years is $7.5 and $8 per, while at a cap hit of 6.7. It's going to take the right team to be able to absorb that financial deal AND give a quality return.
Right now, Bura seems like trade candidate #1 in-season.
Beagle isn't returning JACK IMO. Backstrom makes the most sense to me if they poop the bed again this postseason, but I don't think a Backstrom trade is going to return a capable Carlson step-in PLUS a Turris level 2C. Just don't see it. I'd love to be wrong. Backstrom's real $ owed the next two years is $7.5 and $8 per, while at a cap hit of 6.7. It's going to take the right team to be able to absorb that financial deal AND give a quality return.
Right now, Bura seems like trade candidate #1 in-season.
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Regarding Oshie, the moment that contract was signed. I don't change opinions on players because of a 20 game stretch, positive or negative. Takes a calendar year, at least. One thing that I believe without a doubt is that if you put a player on the same ice as Ovechkin, he immediately moves up a tier. I can only imagine what kind of defenseman Carlson would be if he were playing for Edmonton, sliding the puck 20 feet to the left to Mark f******** Letestu.
Disagree about Beagle. Some dingdong GM will pay for him.
I would target Matt Benning of Oilers hard. Right side, right shot D who costs peanuts and is completely lost while playing for Edmonton. Does that remind you of anyone?
As for Backstrom, as chance would have it, we are playing a team back-to-back that could desperately use Backstrom. I personally will be paying very close attention to three players. Elias Lindholm, Jordan Stall and Justin Faulk. If Columbus and Nashville can swap high-grade players to the benefit of both teams, so can Caps and Canes.
hockeykicker
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maacoshark
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Winning the president cup doesn't give you a 25% chance in winning the cup. When the playoffs start all 16 teams have a 1 in 16 chance of winning the cup. You are talking odds not percentages. There is a big difference. And if you actually did the math the Lightning's chances of making the playoffs would be lower than 99.999 percent.
Carlson looks this year like the guy we thought we were going to get back in 2014. He's had an injury-plagued last two seasons but he's been terrific this year and is one of the few guys on this team who steps his game up in the playoffs. It's not complicated... this team is markedly worse without him now and in the future. Sign him.
Alexander the Gr8
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Not true, not everyone has the same probability of winning the Cup entering the playoffs.
CapitalsCupReality
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So I ask again...when he was putting up 22 in the first 26, you were only sweating the contract, not enjoying that he was actually earning it AGAIN? If so...a bit obsessive.
I mean he's only out produced expectation EVERY season in DC so far. I bet you guys can't wait until he actually has a bad season.
HTFN
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So I ask again...when he was putting up 22 in the first 26, you were only sweating the contract, not enjoying that he was actually earning it AGAIN? If so...a bit obsessive.
I mean he's only out produced expectation EVERY season in DC so far. I bet you guys can't wait until he actually has a bad season.
No, I just wasn't being an idiot and letting 26 games change my mind about a long-term contract that I didn't like. The two aren't mutually exclusive, especially when this isn't the season from Oshie that gives me pause anyway.
If he's still playing at this level in four years, then we can talk about this. Until then it's somewhat similar to the people who liked Brooks Orpik's play early in his contract, while still having major reservations about the value and term attached and how it would impact the later years of the deal.
You're actually allowed to think about the future and seasons to come, Brian.
CapitalsCupReality
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26 games? It's been 2+ years of Oshie exceeding expectations. Still not long enough for you? You'll never be happy it's clear. You're just waiting around until his play drops off so you can say "I told you so"? That sure seems like a miserable existence as a fan to me.
I don't get some of you guys...it's one root sickness of HF this constant grinding on a player if god forbid he gets hurt and his play drops off, that and stats over analysis.
And right now, the focus should be on surrounding Ovy with the best we can, not worrying about the 6th year of Oshie's deal.
I don't get some of you guys...it's one root sickness of HF this constant grinding on a player if god forbid he gets hurt and his play drops off, that and stats over analysis.
And right now, the focus should be on surrounding Ovy with the best we can, not worrying about the 6th year of Oshie's deal.
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HTFN
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You must be speaking for someone else, because how I feel about Oshie's contract has yet to cause me to root against him. If anything it's the exact opposite, I'd love for him to stay worth that value for the majority of his deal.
But I don't expect it, so when the question is "how do you feel about the Oshie deal, and why is it just because he's struggling now?", that's my overall opinion on the matter. It was the same when the contract was signed, the same pre and post-injury. None of that keeps me from rooting for him, and what good would it do any party involved if I were suddenly and undeniably right? Now the Capitals just have a bloated contract they can't move and I get to.... What? Enjoy that as a fan of the team?
But I don't expect it, so when the question is "how do you feel about the Oshie deal, and why is it just because he's struggling now?", that's my overall opinion on the matter. It was the same when the contract was signed, the same pre and post-injury. None of that keeps me from rooting for him, and what good would it do any party involved if I were suddenly and undeniably right? Now the Capitals just have a bloated contract they can't move and I get to.... What? Enjoy that as a fan of the team?
Love Osh but I didn't like the contract either. Rooting for him to continue to do well and won't say "I told you so" if his play declines, but personally I don't think he finishes his contract in DC. I think he's likely a buy-out candidate down the road after another inevitable lockout. You can like the player and not like the contract...
Thats a good point we need to wait until there value is at a all time low before we make changes.
CapitalsCupReality
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We pretty much all balked when we saw the length. Caps don't do buyouts. Time will tell.
hb12xchamps
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We get it bro, you wanted Green gone for years and were pissed off that they let him walk for free. Just get over it.
The case with Carlson is completely different and he deserves the money he's going to get. Trading him for futures and relying on a cheap FA acquisition makes this team so much worse. Apparently you're one of the few who can't understand that?
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