Joe Thornton vs Steven Stamkos.

[Felidae]

Vastly different players with similar legacies as the worst playoff performers of their generation (relative to ability). Thornton was arguably the best playmaker in his prime, while Stamkos was the 2nd best goalscorer during his.

Who was the better player?

Peak is who was better at their absolute best.

Prime is the number of years they were elite. So who was better over the course of years they were elite.

Steven Stamkos

Stat placements

Points: 2, 2, 5, 5, 6, 9
PPG: 3, 3, 6, 7
Goals: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 7, 9
GPG: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 6, 7
Assists: 9, 9
APG: 9

Award record

Hart: 2, 6, 8, 11, 11, 14


Joe Thornton

Stat placements

Points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8
PPG: 1, 2, 3, 6, 6, 9
Assists: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 7, 7, 8, 10
APG: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9
GPG: 10

Award record

Hart: 1, 4, 5, 5, 6, 9, 12, 14
Selke: 5, 14, 19,


And bonus question, who was the better playoff performer!

Click to read more...

 

[Fledgemyhedge]

you’re gonna get pelted with people saying that stamkos has two cups and not at all comparable to jumbo. you’re not wrong however

That being said I think stamkos pre leg injury was ramping up to be the better player. It’s a shame

 

[Mulletman]

Stamkos is the better leader as he was able to lead his team to the cup twice and he also has better playoff runs with 4 playoffs of at least 15 points, which is usually seen as a pretty decent playoff run. Thornton only has 2 playoff runs with at least 15 points. But Thornton did way better at playmaking in the playoffs than what Stamkos has been able to do as a goal scorer. Thornton is 25th in all time playoff assists while Stamkos is only 79th in all time playoff goals. Stamkos can still add to his stats and it's not impossible that he could climb to the top 25 in all time playoff goals as well.

 

[Felidae]

Ok so I'm gonna go to bat for Stamkos cause I have a feeling this will be lopsided.

I think there's a solid argument he has the better peak between the two (Stamkos 2011-12 and Thornton's 2005-06 season.)

Stamkos has the 13th highest EV goal season of all time. But what's even more impressive is that everyone ahead of him played between 1992 and 1970. 3 of the highest scoring environments ever. So he has the highest even strength goal season this century and in the last 31 years.


As for overall production. He finished 2nd behind Peak Malkin in a lower scoring environment than 2005. The gap between him and the 10th place scorer is 19 points. It's true that the gap between Thornton and the 10th place point producer of his season is quite a bit larger, at 32 points.

However, let's put that into context.

Matthews is currently leading the league in goals this season with 52 goals and is a serious hart contender. One of his main competitors for the award is Kucherov, the current points leader who outproduces him by 25 points, Matthews is sitting at 8th place in points. But of course, Matthews has a 14 goal lead over him. His whole case hinges on scoring significantly more goals than anyone else.

Well, peak Stamkos outscores Thornton by 31 goals without accounting for the fact Thornton played in a higher scoring environment. That would also mean that the point gap would realistically be quite smaller since Stamkos was the runner up to the Art Ross.

So if you're someone who thinks Matthews is the number 1 Hart candidate, it's logically inconsistent to vote Thornton for better peak. Considering the gap between Stamkos and Thornton in goalscoring is significantly larger and the point placement gap is noticeably smaller than that of Matthews and his competition for the Hart.

And really, anyone that values goals quite a bit more than assists should be voting for Stamkos given how massive the goalscoring gap is and how close their actual point placements are.

 

[Buck Naked]

Stamkos is the better leader as he was able to lead his team to the cup twice

Yes, he even did it once with 2:47 in icetime over the entire playoff. What would that team even be without their leader on the ice?

 

[Mulletman]

Yes, he even did it once with 2:47 in icetime over the entire playoff. What would that team even be without their leader on the ice?

Yeah but he scored one of the most electrifying goal in playoff history in that game:
Esa Lindell looked like he was playing defense against his wife's boyfriend on that one!
Oh and I think it was Cirelli and Palat who mentioned that Stamkos was always in the locker room cheering the team on, giving advice and cutting vicious promos if necessary!
There's no doubt that Stamkos is the real deal as the Captain when it comes to leadership. And it's no surprise as he's the reincarnation of arguably the greatest leader of all time, George Washington:

 

[bobholly39]

Yes, he even did it once with 2:47 in icetime over the entire playoff. What would that team even be without their leader on the ice?

Stamkos had an all-time great playoff run - that trumps the combination of Matthews's this season along with peak Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr combined.

That playoff run - his Goals per 60 was a whopping 28.13. Matthews this season is at about 1.88, for comparison.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Thornton for both.

Better regular season and they're both ghosts in the postseason, Stamkos was just lucky enough to get carried to 2 Cups by Vasy/Hedman/Kucherov/Point

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Gotta go with Stammy. Thornton turned into Small Joe when Lindros beat up his ass and always came up short in big games.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Thornton for both.

Better regular season and they're both ghosts in the postseason, Stamkos was just lucky enough to get carried to 2 Cups by Vasy/Hedman/Kucherov/Point

2nd cup he was tied for 2nd in goals and 3rd in points. I would hardly call that carried.

 

[blundluntman]

Thornton for sure for peak and prime. Thornton’s hart trophy season and few years surrounding it was better than Stamkos at his peak and his prime was better as well. “Stamkos was a better leader because he captained his team to cups” is borderline trolling. You don’t have to be Napoleon freaking Bonaparte to “lead” a team with Kucherov, Hedman, Vasilevsky, Point, etc.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Stamkos had an all-time great playoff run

Stamkos has never had one of those.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's funny to see people arguing that Stamkos was great in the playoffs, he really wasn't. His play drops off a fair bit in the postseason. He was lucky to be on great teams.

That being said, if Stamkos' playoffs weren't great then Thorton's were just flat out bad. 32 goals in 187 playoff games is brutal even if you are mostly a playmaker. And his points take a huge drop.

To me, this would be Stamkos in a walk if he doesn't get injured. Even with the injury though, I'll take him. I favour goalscorers and while he's not great in the playoffs he does have two cups.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It's funny to see people arguing that Stamkos was great in the playoffs, he really wasn't. His play drops off a fair bit in the postseason. He was lucky to be on great teams.

That being said, if Stamkos' playoffs weren't great then Thorton's were just flat out bad. 32 goals in 187 playoff games is brutal even if you are mostly a playmaker. And his points take a huge drop.

To me, this would be Stamkos in a walk if he doesn't get injured. Even with the injury though, I'll take him. I favour goalscorers and while he's not great in the playoffs he does have two cups.

you're proving the point.

"has 2 Cups"...yeah he really earned that 1st one playing in 1 game that postseason. Unless he's some godly motivator leading the team from the bench like he's Charlie Conway

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

you're proving the point.

"has 2 Cups"...yeah he really earned that 1st one playing in 1 game that postseason. Unless he's some godly motivator leading the team from the bench like he's Charlie Conway

Honestly, it doesn't change much for me here. As I wrote, I don't see him as a great playoff performer anyway. Better than Thorton but that's not saying much.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

I value goals enough more than assists to pick Stamkos here. He'd be regarded considerably higher if not for significant injuries.

 

[Felidae]

It's funny to see people arguing that Stamkos was great in the playoffs, he really wasn't. His play drops off a fair bit in the postseason. He was lucky to be on great teams.

That being said, if Stamkos' playoffs weren't great then Thorton's were just flat out bad. 32 goals in 187 playoff games is brutal even if you are mostly a playmaker. And his points take a huge drop.

To me, this would be Stamkos in a walk if he doesn't get injured. Even with the injury though, I'll take him. I favour goalscorers and while he's not great in the playoffs he does have two cups.

In fairness to Thornton, He actually lead his team in points during some of his playoff runs. (I had a whole post about it but can't find the thread) Stamkos never did.

Thornton has 2 PPG playoff runs and 4 just below a PPG, Stammer has 1 PPG run in a 4 game series and another one just below a PPG

But I honestly don't know who the worse or better playoff performer is as a whole. Thornton's lows were worse. For instance, Stammer never went pointless in a 7 game series.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Jumbo.


Stamkos has always been propped up by better players throughout his career .

 

[Felidae]

Jumbo.


Stamkos has always been propped up by better players throughout his career .

That's false.

2009-10. Stamkos had the same amount of points as St Louis while scoring 22 more goals. Was 6th in hart voting. Way ahead of St Louis

2011-12

Stamkos scored 35 more goals than St Louis, and 23 more points. He was the Hart runner up, way ahead of St Louis.

2012-13.

Stamkos had 3 less points, but 12 more goals. Both played the same amount of games. Was 8th in hart voting, St Louis right behind him

2014-15. Led his team in points and goals.


That's 4 seasons right there where he was the clear cut best player on the team.

 

[The Tourist]

Thornton, easy.

He would have multiple cups if he played on those Tampa teams.

 

[Ghetty Green]

Thornton AINEC

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Thornton, easy.

He would have multiple cups if he played on those Tampa teams.

Let’s not act like Thornton wasn’t playing on very strong SJ teams for most of his career lol

 

[Regal]

That's false.

2009-10. Stamkos had the same amount of points as St Louis while scoring 22 more goals. Was 6th in hart voting. Way ahead of St Louis

2011-12

Stamkos scored 35 more goals than St Louis, and 23 more points. He was the Hart runner up, way ahead of St Louis.

2012-13.

Stamkos had 3 less points, but 12 more goals. Both played the same amount of games. Was 8th in hart voting, St Louis right behind him

2014-15. Led his team in points and goals.


That's 4 seasons right there where he was the clear cut best player on the team.

I disagree. I think the only year he was the best was 11-12 imo. Having more goals and similar points doesn’t mean he’s better when St.Louis is the one driving play on the line. He was legit great in 11-12, and again at the start of 13-14 before hurting his leg, but the rest of the time he was mostly just a shooter. And in 14-15, Hedman was the best player on the team and I don’t think a single Tampa fan would say Stamkos was better than Johnson that year either. He was also passed by Kucherov in the playoffs

 

[Despote]

And in 14-15, Hedman was the best player on the team and I don’t think a single Tampa fan would say Stamkos was better than Johnson that year either. He was also passed by Kucherov in the playoffs

Stamkos is passed by a lot of players in the playoffs

 

[82Ninety42011]

Two very different players who would have been magic together in regular seasons at least. Neither playoff legend but Stamkos has done more there. As per Stammer played on better team players etc. Those Sharks teams were stacked as well and Thorton did nothing with them.