Joe Morrow vs Derrick Pouliot

[Mister Hockey]

PRESEASON. It means nothing. You're playing against lesser competition, and the games don't matter at all. Plus, it's easy for a young guy to have adrenalin pumping and play a good game or three, but try keeping that up for a full season against the best of the best, when games matter.


I have high hopes for Morrow, but he is a guy who will have to hone his craft over time. I expect him to spend at least 2 full years, if not 3, in WBS, with perhaps the odd call up in year 2 or 3, but he is far from ready. He wasn't even consistent at the junior level in the WHL last year.

I agree to a point. But, he did show talet and was very poised. He did not look out of place playing with Letang.

 

[Tender Rip]

I like Morrow a lot more because of his shot, physicality and frame. Seems to me to bring more elements we genuinely need and less risk that he will be overwhelmed at the highest levels.
Pouliot to me just doesn't seem to have enough end product in him, but perhaps teams with less passing proficiency from the back would have more use for him. Would love to be wrong, of course.

 

[JTG]

Like I've said before, Pouliot right now is much less appealing than he will be when he fills out his frame. The guy isn't as physically developed as some his age (for instance, like Morrow was last year), but he has the frame to be a pretty big guy. He's right around 6 foot, and can probably put 20 lbs on as he matures.

If we can work his defensive game into shape, which I think we will be, specifically because we play a style of puck retrieval that suits his game incredibly well, he will be at least a middle pairing PPQB who can play 20 mins a game. I like reading things about Pouliot that he will not back down and plays a chippy style.

 

[Mr. T]

Like I've said before, Pouliot right now is much less appealing than he will be when he fills out his frame. The guy isn't as physically developed as some his age (for instance, like Morrow was last year), but he has the frame to be a pretty big guy. He's right around 6 foot, and can probably put 20 lbs on as he matures.

If we can work his defensive game into shape, which I think we will be, specifically because we play a style of puck retrieval that suits his game incredibly well, he will be at least a middle pairing PPQB who can play 20 mins a game. I like reading things about Pouliot that he will not back down and plays a chippy style.

This is key. Pouliot is every bit as nasty as Morrow. But as Morrow is more physically mature, it's significantly noticeable when he's in people's faces and shoving them around compared to Pouliot. When DP adds some bulk, I think he'll surprise people with the amount of ish that he he'll be able to dish out.

 

[Mr. T]

QUOTE=Will Hunting;56734685]It´s really close in my view. Morrow, while very good, is getting awfully overrated here.


That's for sure. It all comes from him being a lat cut in camp last year and almost making the team. That was exactly what was said about Bisonnette, and look how he turned out. Also Morrow has been terrible in WBS this year. The idea that he is ready for the NHL is laughable.



Yeah, its the same reason that they picked Angelo Esposito.



Really? What exactly is that. He didn't make TC. He isn't scoring at a particularly high pace. His defense is still suspect. So what has he done?



Oh really? And you know this exactly how? You watched Portland a lot, have you? Or are you just making this up based on what other people on HF who also haven't seen them play say?



Thanks for the deep insight.

It's amazing how anyone could have an opinion on a topic like this. You could throw a blanket over Morrow, Pouliot, along with Depres and Maata. There is virtually nothing accomplishment-wise to distinguish among them. All are defensemen who are #20-30 picks. (That's where Pouliot belongs, especially in a good draft). All were good, but not exceptional in juniors. Morrow and Depres have both been terrible at WBS and with Maata and Pouliot is still in junior, so can't separate them on this basis. They even differ little in skill set, except for Pouliot, who is somewhat better offensively and worse defensively than the rest. Maybe a professional scout could tell you that one is better than the others, but I'm not a professional scout and neither is anyone who mouths off here about who is better.

The basic fact about prospects, even "good" ones, drafted outside very top is that the vast majority amount to nothing significant. As anyone with a brain knows, you can't making predictions of the future without taking apriori probabilities into account. This is a fundamental reasoning error commonly made by people who aren't very bright. So if you you don't have any real facts, the best prediction is that the prospect will never be a high impact player. The Pens have a lot of good but not great prospects. (People talk about Morrow and Pouliot as if they were Hamilton and Gormley level prospects) This improves the odds that at least one will turn out well. But anyone who thinks that he can predict which is in full delusion mode.

Wow. A lot of awful in here, and not just the spelling and grammar.

 

[limite*]

I've seen you mention Pouliot's scoring in the WHL numerous times and how you are not impressed by it. He has 36 points in 35 games which is 2nd in the entire league.y.

And Grigorenko has been scoring almost a **goal** a game.

You lose.

 

[JTG]

And Grigorenko has been scoring almost a **goal** a game.

You lose.

And Pouliot is 2nd in the WHL in scoring amongst defensemen...not seeing your point.

I'm not saying picking Pouliot was right or wrong, but minimizing his accomplishments thus far this season is silly just because you don't like him and would have rather had Grigorenko.

You lose...again and again.

 

[JTG]

This year is like any other. It's the same song and dance. "I'd rather have this guy, so I'm going to keep bringing him up until people quit listening to me." I've been reading this site for about 8 years, and it's the same stuff every single year. Funny thing is, a lot of the guys people wanted here never amounted for ****, really.

Grigorenko and Forsberg were ranked as top 10 talents, and every single team in the top 10 passed on them. We're not talking about teams that couldn't use serious offensive firepower either, aside from a team like Edmonton. There's something with those two that we do not know, as if they were as perfect as some here make them out to be, they would have never slid like they did.

I really could give 2 ***** less about Grigorenko. He's not a Penguins prospect. No amount of pissing or moaning will make him a Pens prospect. You can question a pick, that's fine, but doing the whole, "OMGZ look at this guys statzzz!" is just a sorry and tired song and dance. Let the dust settle, come back in 2-3 years and we can discuss who was the right pick or not. Odds are most of the people who are the squeeky wheels won't be posting here in 2-3 years because they will either be banned or give up their schtick. Round and round it goes.

 

[bigd]

Morrow could have played in the NHL last year. I would have picked Forsberg.

I think we've already seen that he couldn't from his play in the AHL this season. As a matter of fact, unless he really has a spectacular second half he will probably need another season in WBS.

 

[jmelm]

I think we've already seen that he couldn't from his play in the AHL this season. As a matter of fact, unless he really has a spectacular second half he will probably need another season in WBS.

Yeah, I remember getting major backlash earlier in the summer when I suggested that Morrow may need a full 2 or 3 years in the AHL. We can see why. He has all the tools, but needs time to put it together. Until he's dominating in the AHL, there's no need to bring him up -- especially with other guys more NHL ready (Dumoulin, Harrington, Bortuzzo, and perhaps Despres after this season).

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah, I remember getting major backlash earlier in the summer when I suggested that Morrow may need a full 2 or 3 years in the AHL. We can see why. He has all the tools, but needs time to put it together. Until he's dominating in the AHL, there's no need to bring him up -- especially with other guys more NHL ready (Dumoulin, Harrington, Bortuzzo, and perhaps Despres after this season).

I still believe he is NHL ready. He could instantly bolster their PP and transition game. If he played sheltered minutes like Despres did, I believe he wouldn't be a trainwreck.

Playing with elite talent, Morrow would be more of an asset than he is in WBS, where there is a dearth of talent.

Guys like Bort, Strait, Despres and Dumoulin deserve a chance before him, so he may be in WBS for a couple of yrs. The talent ahead of him is more likely to keep him in WBS, than his inability to handle NHL minutes.

I have no problem with him staying in WBS, but if their PP is ass again, I would hope he is brought up to see what he can do.

 

[jmelm]

I still believe he is NHL ready. He could instantly bolster their PP and transition game. If he played sheltered minutes like Despres did, I believe he wouldn't be a trainwreck.

Playing with elite talent, Morrow would be more of an asset than he is in WBS, where there is a dearth of talent.

Guys like Bort, Strait, Despres and Dumoulin deserve a chance before him, so he may be in WBS for a couple of yrs. The talent ahead of him is more likely to keep him in WBS, than his inability to handle NHL minutes.

I have no problem with him staying in WBS, but if their PP is ass again, I would hope he is brought up to see what he can do.

NO! This is a short-sighted view. I would NOT compromise Joe's long-term development because our PP could use a bit slapshot right now. I'd rather trade for Gonchar...


I don't want Morrow, or Despres, to have to play "sheltered" minutes in the NHL right now. These are guys who should eventually be top-pairing, #1 or #2 Dmen at the NHL level -- and the only way we will be able to know this is if they become all-star, Norris calibre (or equivalent) Dmen at the AHL level, playing 25 minutes per night, in all situations. Morrow will never learn how to play in all areas of the game if he only plays sheltered minutes.


I am adamant about the fact that a prospect should not be brought up unless they are dominating (or at least playing a complete game, which Morrow isn't) at the AHL level. Let's wait for these guys to become more complete and consistent players until we bring them up.


The only reason Harrington may be an exception is because he is SOO dominant at the junior level (and because of his elite hockey sense), that I believe he does not need time in the minors to "refine his game". If he plays any time there, it will be just a numbers game. He could have played in the NHL THIS season (if there was a season), and he can DEFINITELY play in the NHL next season. So if Despres & Dumoulin are proving they are too good for WBS (possible, but hasn't happened yet, especially with Despres), then it's possible Harrington spends 1 season tops in the AHL. But it won't be because he's not ready. And if he does go there, I hope they use him in a very offensive role (1st unit PP time) to help develop that part of his game.

 

[JTG]

I do think playing on a bad team in WBS does hurt the development of our young guys.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

NO! This is a short-sighted view. I would NOT compromise Joe's long-term development because our PP could use a bit slapshot right now. I'd rather trade for Gonchar...


I don't want Morrow, or Despres, to have to play "sheltered" minutes in the NHL right now. These are guys who should eventually be top-pairing, #1 or #2 Dmen at the NHL level -- and the only way we will be able to know this is if they become all-star, Norris calibre (or equivalent) Dmen at the AHL level, playing 25 minutes per night, in all situations. Morrow will never learn how to play in all areas of the game if he only plays sheltered minutes.


I am adamant about the fact that a prospect should not be brought up unless they are dominating (or at least playing a complete game, which Morrow isn't) at the AHL level. Let's wait for these guys to become more complete and consistent players until we bring them up.


The only reason Harrington may be an exception is because he is SOO dominant at the junior level (and because of his elite hockey sense), that I believe he does not need time in the minors to "refine his game". If he plays any time there, it will be just a numbers game. He could have played in the NHL THIS season (if there was a season), and he can DEFINITELY play in the NHL next season. So if Despres & Dumoulin are proving they are too good for WBS (possible, but hasn't happened yet, especially with Despres), then it's possible Harrington spends 1 season tops in the AHL. But it won't be because he's not ready. And if he does go there, I hope they use him in a very offensive role (1st unit PP time) to help develop that part of his game.

It's far from shortsighted and too many people cling to this notion that a blueliner will be "ruined" if he plays in the NHL at an early age.

If you waited for a prospect to be dominant in the A, many guys would of never had NHL careers.

Sheltered minutes in the NHL >> top minutes in the A. Morrow is playing with a roster that is short on talent and the reality is that his game would develop much faster with sheltered minutes playing with and agt. the best in the world, than in the A.

His offensive game is more than NHL ready, he is country strong and more than capable of handling himself in the NHL. Just like Despres, I'm 100% sure he will excel playing with elite talent. He will have ups and downs, but he will help the big club more than he will hurt them.

Being NHL ready does not mean he is ready for a top four role. Not sure why people think that way.

 

[Rico Fatastic]

His offensive game is more than NHL ready, he is country strong and more than capable of handling himself in the NHL. Just like Despres, I'm 100% sure he will excel playing with elite talent. He will have ups and downs, but he will help the big club more than he will hurt them.

Someone needs to photoshop Joe Morrow onto this poster...

 

[Jacob]

You may not "ruin" a player by putting them in the NHL too early but you will stagnate their development.

If Morrow were to play sheltered minutes in the NHL then he'll end up being pigeonholed as a power play specialist. He won't ever learn how to play in defensive and PK situations by watching from the bench. That's why the AHL is there, to develop their game - their ENTIRE game - in the minors.

I partially disagree that sheltered minutes in the NHL is better than big minutes in the AHL. Only after a player has proven themselves in the AHL should they graduate to sheltered minutes in the NHL.

 

[bigd]

I still believe he is NHL ready. He could instantly bolster their PP and transition game. If he played sheltered minutes like Despres did, I believe he wouldn't be a trainwreck.

Playing with elite talent, Morrow would be more of an asset than he is in WBS, where there is a dearth of talent.

Guys like Bort, Strait, Despres and Dumoulin deserve a chance before him, so he may be in WBS for a couple of yrs. The talent ahead of him is more likely to keep him in WBS, than his inability to handle NHL minutes.

I have no problem with him staying in WBS, but if their PP is ass again, I would hope he is brought up to see what he can do.

He hasn't really even bolstered the PP in WBS yet.

 

[Mr. T]

He hasn't really even bolstered the PP in WBS yet.

I've seen zero WBS hockey this year outside of highlights. Is Morrow on the top PP unit?

 

[Burgs]

I've seen zero WBS hockey this year outside of highlights. Is Morrow on the top PP unit?

Nope. They insist on playing a forward (usually Ferriero) in that spot. Working like a charm so far.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You may not "ruin" a player by putting them in the NHL too early but you will stagnate their development.

If Morrow were to play sheltered minutes in the NHL then he'll end up being pigeonholed as a power play specialist. He won't ever learn how to play in defensive and PK situations by watching from the bench. That's why the AHL is there, to develop their game - their ENTIRE game - in the minors.

I partially disagree that sheltered minutes in the NHL is better than big minutes in the AHL. Only after a player has proven themselves in the AHL should they graduate to sheltered minutes in the NHL.

With a guy like Morrow, I disagree. Despres never proved himself in the A and he got the call. I didn't think his play in the A warranted a callup, but he once again showed why performance in the A isn't the end all, be all.

I think the Pens are very good at rounding out young blueliners and can't see Morrow getting pigeonholed with his overall talent.

What he can do for their PP and transition game, is more than worth living with his mistakes in his own end. Martin and Michalek made rookie mistakes all season and neither of them can touch what Morrow can do offensively.

He hasn't really even bolstered the PP in WBS yet.

He hasn't had much of a shot to, and the top PP is ass anyway. As I said, there is a woeful lack of talent on WBS.

The Pens PP has elite, world class talent and Morrow's ability to Qb the PP is a rare skill no Pens blueliner has. The Baby Pens PP is more like watching the Keystone Kops.

Huge difference.

 

[bigd]

I've seen zero WBS hockey this year outside of highlights. Is Morrow on the top PP unit?

When he's in the line up he's on the first PP with Ferriero. He has an NHL shot and a quick release but he hasn't been spectacular. You can see he has all the tools but he's still a work in progress. He's a tremendous skater and he gets himself out of jams in the AHL because of his it. What he has to learn is not to put himself in those jam positions because at the NHL level because he won't be able to skate himself out of it. No way he's ready for NHL duty yet.

 

[bigd]

With a guy like Morrow, I disagree. Despres never proved himself in the A and he got the call. I didn't think his play in the A warranted a callup, but he once again showed why performance in the A isn't the end all, be all.

I think the Pens are very good at rounding out young blueliners and can't see Morrow getting pigeonholed with his overall talent.

What he can do for their PP and transition game, is more than worth living with his mistakes in his own end. Martin and Michalek made rookie mistakes all season and neither of them can touch what Morrow can do offensively.



He hasn't had much of a shot to, and the top PP is ass anyway. As I said, there is a woeful lack of talent on WBS.

The Pens PP has elite, world class talent and Morrow's ability to Qb the PP is a rare skill no Pens blueliner has. The Baby Pens PP is more like watching the Keystone Kops.

Huge difference.

So what you're saying is he would be a tremendous asset for a terrible Pitt PP but because he's playing with inferior players he's not helping the WBS PP.
It seems to me that a great player should make the other players around him better. He's had plenty of opportunety, he's been on the first PP every time he's been in the lineup. His play on the PP in not the reason he's been scratched.
He's not ready for the NHL but you insist he could play right now. Well any of the players on WBS could be thrown into to Pitt line up and play marginal minutes right now. That doesn't mean they would help the team win.
And as far as Despres goes, he's doing just fine in the AHL. I don't know what all the posters are saying that Despres hasn't played well. I don't know where that's coming from. I think it's just stat watchers. You can't evaluate a player by just looking at his stats. Look at Grant, he had a tremendous season stat wise, last year. He can't even break into the line up this year.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So what you're saying is he would be a tremendous asset for a terrible Pitt PP but because he's playing with inferior players he's not helping the WBS PP.
It seems to me that a great player should make the other players around him better. He's had plenty of opportunety, he's been on the first PP every time he's been in the lineup. His play on the PP in not the reason he's been scratched.
He's not ready for the NHL but you insist he could play right now. Well any of the players on WBS could be thrown into to Pitt line up and play marginal minutes right now. That doesn't mean they would help the team win.
And as far as Despres goes, he's doing just fine in the AHL. I don't know what all the posters are saying Despres hasn't played well. I don't know where that's coming from. I think it's just stat watchers. You can't evaluate a player by just looking at his stats. Look at Grant, he had a tremendous season stat wise, last year. He can't even break into the line up this year.

Only truly elite players like Crosby and Malkin can make marginal talent look better and as we all know, that doesn't always happen, as both have struggled for yrs to find chemistry with the inferior players put on their lines.

So, yep I'm beyond certain Morrow would look much better with elite talent than the woeful talent in the A. It is also easier, as Despres even said, to play with NHLers because they cover for your mistakes and show you things that you simply can't learn in the A.

Morrow is also fighting for ice time with grizzled A vets like Bort and Strait who should be in the NHL. You won't see consistency from a young player learning a new system, until he gets consistent ice time. I've seen that over and over again throughout the years.

Many young blueliners need to stay in the A, but kids like Letang, Morrow and Despres are exceptions to the rule because of their strength, skating, and offensive games. Once again NHL ready does not mean he is ready to be in the top four. He isn't anymore of a trainwreck in the A than Martin and Michalek were in the NHL.

As far as Despres, I didnt mention his play this year so referencing that in a reply to me makes zero sense. I am talking about last season and he definetly didn't look good or deserve a callup. In fact last season you insisted he was "bad" and wasn't NHL ready at all.

If you want to claim Despres didn't play MUCH better in the NHL than the A, then I suggest you take your own advice on stat watching. He was struggling last season in the A, there is no way to sugar coat that. He struggled in camp and it carried over into his play throughout the Fall.

There was no way he should have been called up based on his play in WBS.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I believe Despres was called up last season because:

1. Multiple injuries on Pitt's defense;
2. Depth players also injured;
3. Top WBS players also injured.

All he had to do at that point was have a pulse and he was eligible to be called up. He did surprisingly well in the sheltered NHL minutes that he got so that was weighed against his AHL performance in future call ups. Also, to a lesser degree, you have to consider that they could be looking for particular skill sets depending on who was injured.

 

[bigd]

I believe Despres was called up last season because:

1. Multiple injuries on Pitt's defense;
2. Depth players also injured;
3. Top WBS players also injured.

All he had to do at that point was have a pulse and he was eligible to be called up. He did surprisingly well in the sheltered NHL minutes that he got so that was weighed against his AHL performance in future call ups. Also, to a lesser degree, you have to consider that they could be looking for particular skill sets depending on who was injured.

Exactly, he was called up because he was next on the dept chart after all the injuries. I never said Despres was terrible last season. Just like Morrow this season he needs to learn to be a pro and that's something that should be done in the AHL not the NHL.
Morrow is not going to make the Pitt PP click. It would be a reall risky gamble to to bring him up this season. From what i've seen, and i've watched almost every WBS game this year, he's definetly not NHL ready. But that's just my opinion and we all know what prospect opinions on a hockey forum are worth. They are like A$$holes, everbody has one.