Jim Robson Quarterfinals: Halifax Citadels vs. Toronto Maple Leafs

[Sturminator]

Halifax Citadels

GMs: Stoneberg & rmartin65
Coach: Art Ross
Captain: Pulford
Alternate Captains: Mayorov, Howe

Roster
Bobby Hull - Syd Howe(A) - Glenn Anderson
George Hay - Frank Fredrickson - Andy Bathgate
Adam Graves - Walt Tkaczuk - Frank Finnigan
Boris Mayorov(A) - Ivan Hlinka - Brian Rolston

Borje Salming - Harvey Pulford(C)
Jan Suchý - Gary Bergman
Jerry Korab - Vasili Pervukhin

Tom Barrasso
Gerry Cheevers

Spares:
Al MacAdam, W
Art Chapman, C
Kris Letang, D
Normand Rochefort, D


1st PP Unit
Howe - Anderson
Bathgate - Hull
Salming

Salming at the top of the umbrella
Hull & Bathgate on on their "off" wings at either end of the umbrella
Howe collecting pucks and set up down low
Anderson to the front of the net when we have possession

2nd PP Unit
Mayorov - Fredrickson - Graves (net)
Suchý - Hull/Rolston

Hull should be fine playing the majority

PK Forwards
Tkaczuk - Finnigan
Rolston - Graves

PK Defensemen
Korab - Pulford
Salming - Bergman
​

Vs.​

TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Coach:Barry Trotz

Captain:Lemieux
Assistants: Bouchard, Day, Larionov

Michel Goulet - Mario Lemieux - Jari Kurri
Sid Smith-Igor Larionov-Mike Gartner
J.P Parise -Dale Hunter-Anders Hedberg
Wendel Clark -Trevor Linden -Dustin Byfuglien
Lorne Carr- Andrew Ladd-Terry O'Rielly

Bill Quackenbush -Emile 'Butch' Bouchard
Hap Day - Si Griffis
Pat Egan- Ed Van Impe
Tomas Kaberle

Grant Fhur
Dave Kerr


PP Unit1
Goulet - Lemieux -Kurri
Quakenbush -Pat Egan

PP Unit 2
Smith- Larionov -Gartner
Si Griffis Byfuglien


PK Unit 1
Parise-Hunter
Bouchard -Day

PK Unit 2
Linden -Hedberg
Quakenbush -Griffis

​

Click to read more...

 

[rmartin65]

It is my first time doing one of these, so bear with me everyone.

Coaching- Trotz (Toronto) vs. Ross (Halifax)
Honestly, not a strong suit for either team, in my opinion. Both coaches are definitely ATD quality, but neither fit their team very well. I think Ross’ record is a little better, but I don’t think coaching will play a large role in this series. Also note that Halifax has the home ice advantage, which could help with matchups.

1st Line- Goulet/Lemieux/Kurri (Toronto) vs. Hull/Howe/Anderson (Halifax)
Toronto’s 1st line is terrifying. Lemieux is Lemieux, and Kurri and Goulet fit with him pretty well. Not much more to say there. Halifax’s first line is very good as well, but even the homer in me can’t make an argument saying that they are an equal unit. Advantage Toronto.

2nd Line- Smith/Larionov/Gartner (Toronto) vs. Hay/Fredrickson/Bathgate (Halifax)
The second line is another matter, however. While Larionov is, in my opinion, a solid 2C, I think Smith and Gartner are not ATD 2nd line players. Also, I question the chemistry on the line. Halifax, on the other hand, has a strong 2nd unit. Bathgate is probably a low-end 1st liner, while Fredrickson and Hay are solid 2nd liners. Furthermore, I think the line works well both offensively and defensively. Advantage Halifax.

3rd Line- Parise/Hunter/Hedberg (Toronto) vs. Graves/Tkaczuk/Finnigan (Halifax)
Toronto’s 3rd line would be a fantastic 4th line, but I just don’t see them as a passable 3rd. It has the look of a hard-working unit, but I don’t see it as a strong enough line defensively to make up for the dearth of offense it will provide. Halifax’s third is a two-way line with size/grit and offense (Graves/Tkaczuk), and defensive ability. I put forth that this line is stronger than Toronto’s both offensively and defensively. Advantage Halifax.

4th Line- Clark/Linden/Byfuglien (Toronto) vs. Mayorov/Hlinka/Rolston (Halifax)
4th lines are fairly insignificant, but here is goes. Toronto’s 4th line is similar to their 3rd, in that it provides a lot of grit and leadership, but not much else. It certainly won’t be a fun unit to play against physically, though I think skill-wise most teams have the upper hand. Halifax’s 4th line is not the traditional 4th line, as it is not an energy line. Mayorov is a solid 3rd liner who plays physically and can dish the puck. Hlinka also plays a physical game, is defensively responsible, and is balanced offensively. Rolston, though possessing good size, is not a physical player. However, his booming shot and skating ability meshes well with Mayorov. Probably a wash, since the units will be used in different ways.

More to come later.

 

[Leaf Lander]

As gm of halifax rMartin off course your going to go on about your teams players and how they ate better then the opposition

 

[rmartin65]

As gm of halifax rMartin off course your going to go on about your teams players and how they ate better then the opposition

Yeah, I am not unbiased, I readily admit.

Offer your views, and we can talk/debate the finer points of the rosters.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You're doing it right.

These thing should be factual, yet at least somewhat favorable to your own team. GMs who make **** up get jumped and piled on, but nobody expects you to be totally objective.

 

[Sturminator]

Bathgate is probably a low-end 1st liner, while Fredrickson and Hay are solid 2nd liners.

You are seriously underrating Andy Bathgate. Here's where he lands in 7-season VsX among wings:

Rank|Player|Score
1 | Gordie Howe | 126
2 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.6
3 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
4 | Guy Lafleur | 104.9
5 | Ted Lindsay | 104.8
6 | Maurice Richard | 102.5
7 | Andy Bathgate | 101.2
8 | Alex Ovechkin | 97.5
9 | Charlie Conacher | 97.1
10 | Bill Cook | 96.6

Andy Bathgate is the best second line scorer in the league by a healthy margin, and you need him to be if you want this team to go anywhere.

 

[Sturminator]

Andy Bathgate's playoff performances have often been criticized, but this criticism has always ignored the strength of competition he faced. Bathgate only went to the playoffs five times during his prime (up to the 1963-64 season). These were the results:

1956: 1-2-3 in a 5 game loss to Montréal. This was the dynasty Habs team at its peak, and they had plenty of checkers to throw at Bathgate, who was the only real offensive weapon on his team. This Habs team won the Cup.

1957: 2-0-2 in another 5 game loss to the same Habs team, which again won the Cup.

1958: 5-3-8 in a 6 game loss to the Bruins. When facing a team without the insane checking and depth of the Habs, Bathgate tears them apart, but his team still loses because the Rangers sucked.

1962: 1-2-3 in a 6 game loss to the Imlach Leafs, who were extremely strong defensively, and won the Cup that season.

1964: 5-4-9 in 14 games for the Cup winning Leafs. Andy didn't dominate in the playoffs this year, but he played well by all accounts.

----------------------------------------------------

Basically, Bathgate was the only dangerous offensive player on the Rangers during his time there, and three times ran into a defensive buzzsaw in the first round. It's easy to see what happened and why. The one season the Rangers didn't face the Habs or Leafs in the first round, Andy produced very well, but New York lost, anyway.

I don't see Bathgate's playoff record as a negative. He didn't choke in the playoffs in his three disappointing seasons in New York, but rather faced teams which were ridiculously well-suited to shutting down a single offensive threat, which is exactly what Bathgate was at the time. No one outside of maybe Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux would have performed well under those circumstances.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Andy Bathgate's playoff performances have often been criticized, but this criticism has always ignored the strength of competition he faced. Bathgate only went to the playoffs five times during his prime (up to the 1963-64 season). These were the results:

1956: 1-2-3 in a 5 game loss to Montréal. This was the dynasty Habs team at its peak, and they had plenty of checkers to throw at Bathgate, who was the only real offensive weapon on his team. This Habs team won the Cup.

1957: 2-0-2 in another 5 game loss to the same Habs team, which again won the Cup.

1958: 5-3-8 in a 6 game loss to the Bruins. When facing a team without the insane checking and depth of the Habs, Bathgate tears them apart, but his team still loses because the Rangers sucked.

1962: 1-2-3 in a 6 game loss to the Imlach Leafs, who were extremely strong defensively, and won the Cup that season.

1964: 5-4-9 in 14 games for the Cup winning Leafs. Andy didn't dominate in the playoffs this year, but he played well by all accounts.

----------------------------------------------------

Basically, Bathgate was the only dangerous offensive player on the Rangers during his time there, and three times ran into a defensive buzzsaw in the first round. It's easy to see what happened and why. The one season the Rangers didn't face the Habs or Leafs in the first round, Andy produced very well, but New York lost, anyway.

I don't see Bathgate's playoff record as a negative. He didn't choke in the playoffs in his three disappointing seasons in New York, but rather faced teams which were ridiculously well-suited to shutting down a single offensive threat, which is exactly what Bathgate was at the time. No one outside of maybe Gretzky/Howe/Lemieux would have performed well under those circumstances.

Bathgate gets criticism similar to late 90s Jagr and I think it is unwarranted in both cases. It is a team sport and when the opposition can focus in on one line or even worse one player.. they are going to have a tough time in the playoffs. You need some form of depth.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First off, I agree that Bathgate is the best winger on a second line in the league this season, probably by a fair margin.

But if his playoff record isn't a disappointment, is there any superstar of the Original 6 era we can say that about?

 

[Sturminator]

First off, I agree that Bathgate is the best winger on a second line in the league this season, probably by a fair margin.

But if his playoff record isn't a disappointment, is there any superstar of the Original 6 era we can say that about?

I think "disappointment" is a fair enough term. I just object to the idea that Bathgate was a choker or had a really bad playoff record. It's not all that different from Paul Kariya's playoff record, and nobody calls Kariya a choker.

This is maybe a case where the modern player has an advantage in comparison to the old-timer. With guys like Kariya and Selanne, we can dismiss their disappointing playoff credentials more easily because we have a better feel for the strength of the teams they played on and what they were up against. Paul Kariya never played badly in the postseason as far as I know. He just got really limited opportunities.

Had Bathgate played in the last twenty years, I'm sure plenty of people would mention in connection to his playoff record that in his three rough performances in New York, each year he got clobbered by the teams that could deploy huge amounts of checking resources to stop him and him, alone. But nobody remembers these details from the 1950's, so Andy gets judged by his on-paper performance, which looks worse than it really is.

But yeah, I'm sure Bathgate, himself, would agree that his playoff career was disappointing.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Trotz is the 13 th all time winning est coach in nhl history. Over 600 wins and counting.

Ross isn't even listed in the top 25

Adv Trotz!

Leadership is great on my team with. Day Bouchard and Larionov supporting Lemieux in the leadership dept

Lemieux line first line is better hands down.

Bathgate is a better overall player the. Gartner but Gartner would be the faster skater and the better goal scorer.

Larionov career outshines Frank Frederickson Between he and Frederickson their is no contest. Better 2 way play and better point prodution. Larionov is the smartest player on either team.
When Smith retired only 3 players had scored more goals. Howe richard and Lindsay. Multiple all star appearances. And cup wins. Players need to score and produce to prove their worth in the atd and their. 2 nd line isa one trick pony 2/3 of the line of the leafs 2 nd line is better. Adv leafs

Hedberg was in his day a great 200 foot player who played great despite the excessive abuse hurled at him as a early European players in the nhl. He carved out a rep as a tough determined 2 way player who produced in both ends of the ice.

Hunter was a hockey hero who is top 50 in nhl all time playoffs point producer. He is one of the greatest leader not to win the cup.

Parise was a gritty 2 way player who always won the puck wars along a the boards. He was a great passer and was also known as a clutch goal scorer



More tomorrow

 

[SchultzSquared*]

Bathgate is a better overall player the. Gartner but Gartner would be the faster skater and the better goal scorer.

5, 7, 9, 9, 9, 10

vs

3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9

Yeah... going to have to do a LOT better to show that Gartner > Bathgate in goal scoring...

 

[Leaf Lander]

5, 7, 9, 9, 9, 10

vs

3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8, 9

So which is which?

How about Gartner 30 + goals 15 times vs bathagte who did it 3 times

717 vs 349

 

[SchultzSquared*]

So which is which?

Well... if you can not answer that question about your own player... I do not know what to tell you

But the player with the higher AND more top ten finishes would obviously be the better scorer right???

How about Gartner 30 + goals 15 times vs bathagte who did it 3 times

717 vs 349

Yes great... let us conflate the eras to make Gartner's much longer career seem more impressive with what works out to be statistical noise serving as padding... Bathgate was the better prime scorer with more prime years... as shown by the greater quality/number of top ten scoring finishes... and with that settled there is no point in digging into the extended careers for "value"... career value only matters in the case of a virtual draw other wise... and Bathgate clearly tunes him in quality

 

[Leaf Lander]

I don't have a computer if u give info Add the right headings


I use a BlackBerry

 

[Leaf Lander]

Bathagte scored 30 goals just 3 times in his career. Heck Sid Smith out scored him in the 1950's with 5 top 10 finishes

44579

I'll take 30 goals for 15 yrs everyday day in and day out.

 

[Sturminator]

Bathagte scored 30 goals just 3 times in his career. Heck Sid Smith out scored him in the 1950's with 5 top 10 finishes

44579

I'll take 30 goals for 15 yrs everyday day in and day out.

If this is the answer, I'd like to know the question.

 

[Sturminator]

Bathgate was the better prime scorer with more prime years... as shown by the greater quality/number of top ten scoring finishes...

Bathgate's top-10 finishes actually underrate him as a scorer, as he played in an era of historically great competition.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Gartner played in the 80's and 90's he is a baby boomer. More. Biys played hockey and made the nhl then at any other time in the history of the world. I'd Gartner could compete and be one of her best during the era of increased competition. Then maybe we can look at these. Stats in a different light.

 

[seventieslord]

Halifax over Toronto in 6 games
(Lemieux, Hull, Bathgate)
(interesting voting here, Bathgate had as many votes as all other players combined)