Jim Robson Division Semifinals: (1) Chicago Shamrocks vs. (4) Couchiching Terriers

[jarek]

Chicago Shamrocks​

​

Head Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Eddie Gerard
Alternate Captains: Syl Apps, Maurice Richard

Syd Howe - Eric Lindros - Maurice Richard (A)
Patrick Elias - Syl Apps (A) - Jimmy Ward
Bob Pulford - Ralph Backstrom - Dave Taylor
Vic Hadfield- Nicklas Backstrom - Dirk Graham

Spares: Bill Thoms, Miroslav Satan, Jamie Langenbrunner

Eddie Gerard (C) - Earl Seibert
Jim Neilson - Sergei Zubov
Glen Harmon - Ken Morrow

Spares: Bryan McCabe

Tony Esposito
Gump Worsley



Special Teams
PP 1: Lindros - Apps - Richard - Zubov - Howe

PP 2: Elias - N. Backstrom - Taylor - Zubov/Seibert - Gerard


PK 1: Pulford - Graham - Neilson - Seibert

PK 2: R. Backstrom - Ward - Gerard - Morrow

PK 3: Elias - Howe

Extra PK D: Harmon



Estimated Minutes

Forwards

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
S. Howe | 14 | 4 | 1 | 19
E. Lindros | 12 | 5 | 0 | 17
M. Richard | 16 | 5 | 0 | 21
P. Elias | 12 | 2 | 1 | 15
S. Apps | 14 | 5 | 0 | 19
J. Ward | 12 | 0 | 2 | 14
B. Pulford | 11 | 0 | 4 | 15
R. Backstrom | 11 | 0 | 2 | 13
D. Taylor | 11 | 2 | 0 | 13
V. Hadfield | 9 | 0 | 0 | 9
N. Backstrom | 9 | 2 | 0 | 11
D. Graham | 7 | 0 | 4 | 11
TOTAL | 138 | 25 | 14 | 177

*Apps will take 2-3 shifts per game on the first line for Lindros
**Richard will take 2-3 shifts per game on the 4th line for Graham

Defense

Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
E. Seibert | 20 | 1 | 4 | 25
E. Gerard | 17 | 3 | 3 | 23
S. Zubov | 14 | 6 | 0 | 20
J. Neilson | 14 | 0 | 4 | 18
G. Harmon | 15 | 0 | 0 | 15
K. Morrow | 12 | 0 | 3 | 15
TOTAL | 92 | 10 | 14 | 116

***Seibert will take 2-3 shifts per game with Harmon for Morrow



vs.

Couchiching Terriers
​

Barry Trotz
Roger Neilson

Valeri Kharlamov - Bryan Trottier - Ken Hodge
Rick Nash - Denis Savard - Didier Pitre
Bob Gainey - Guy Carbonneau - Jerry Toppazzini
Jack Marshall - Steven Stamkos - Bernie Nicholls

Bill Quackenbush - Shea Weber
Lester Patrick - Art Coulter
Ted Harris - Pat Egan

Dominik Hasek
Mike Vernon


PP1: Kharlamov - Trottier - Stamkos - Quackenbush - Weber
PP2: Hodge - Savard - Pitre - Patrick - Egan

PK1: Carbonneau - Gainey - Quackenbush - Coulter
PK2: Trottier - Toppazzini - Patrick - Harris

PK3: Marshall - Nicholls

Spares:
Ken Randall, RW/D
Patrick Sharp, F
Willie Mitchell, D​

Click to read more...

 

[Dreakmur]

Bob, meet Maurice. Maurice, meet Bob.

 

[Johnny Engine]

First Messier, now Lindros.
Dreak, whatever you're paying Carbonneau, it isn't enough.

 

[Dreakmur]

First Messier, now Lindros.
Dreak, whatever you're paying Carbonneau, it isn't enough.

I had almost that exact thing typed in earlier

As for the match-up, Couchiching appears to be at a disadvantage on the 2nd line, 1st defense pairing, and on the bench. Couchiching has the advantage on the 3rd and 4th line, 2nd defense pairing, and in net.

I'll need to look more at the 1st lines and 3rd defense pairing.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here's to a good series Dreak. A few general comments to start...

- Large coaching advantage for Chicago

- Large goaltending advantage for Couchiching

- Chicago is loaded with gritty forwards that can get to the net...a real must-have when facing an elite goaltender like Hasek. Particularly on the PP units, Lindros and Taylor as the net guys on each unit are superb.

- As already alluded to, Couchiching will likely try to use Gainey to check Maurice Richard as often as possible; however, that is their only real good option. Can Gainey and the 3rd line handle that much ice-time? Further, Chicago has home-ice and therefore last change more often than not, so Gorman will be able to send Richard out when Gainey is on the bench.

- I see Couchiching as having a difficult time scoring goals with a large advantage for Chicago on the 2nd line and a 3rd line that does not provide much offense at all. That puts a ton of pressure on Couchiching's 1st line, and Chicago has a very solid shutdown D-pair of Gerard - Seibert

- Couchiching is a strong defensive team, but Chicago offers two options to attack that I believe will be effective. Here is something on Chicago's playing style, which incorporates Gorman's forechecking system:

Each of the scoring lines has a dynamic offensive player in Richard and Apps who can really "score on their own" if given the space, which will likely cause opponents to key on these players. If this happens it should help set up Gorman's forecheck by drawing opposing Dmen out of position. If the forecheck is successful and opposing Dmen want to "cheat" to get to the puck quicker, then they will be forced to give more space to Richard/Apps, so we should have an advantage somewhere.

As far as forechecking goes, this team is set up really well for a strong forecheck...Lindros is more than a handful and there are some good quotes in Howe's bio showing he is able as well. On the 2nd line, Ward has a lot of speed and grit, Elias is less physical but has good defensive acumen and obviously can work within a system. Richard/Apps are more there to create offense once we have the puck back, but with Apps playing for Hap Day and Richard for Blake (often playing against top lines), as far as high offense players go I think they are good options as a "3rd forechecker." Neither are soft, and I think it's fair to say they can at least apply pressure and force the opposition to do something if put in that situation. Not saying they will win the puck back themselves, but I don't think they're an "easy out." The 3rd line is made up of 3 guys who are all praised for their forechecking abilities...R. Backstrom and Pulford are faster than Taylor so more often than not one of those 2 will be the first man in with Taylor being 2nd or 3rd. This line really has the potential to pin a team in their own zone. The 4th line is also capable of playing this system...Graham is a strong forechecker, N. Backstrom has good two-way ability, and Hadfield is a physical force that can be the finisher to N. Backstrom's playmaking.

Further to the above, Hasek, while a great goaltender, is not the best puck-handler and won't be able to help out his Dmen much on Chicago dump-ins.



I'll try to get to some forward line comparisons next...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Let's look at forward lines...


1st Lines
Interesting that each team has a "2nd liner" on their first lines, Lindros for Chicago and Hodge for Couchiching. I would call Lindros an average to slightly above average 2nd line center. Hodge is tough to gauge due to his unique team situation (Orr/Espo Bruins), but I would call him a below average 2nd line RW. Both players fit their lines well in terms of role.

Richard vs. Kharlamov: Richard is an elite winger, Kharlamov is a good 1st line winger. Advantage Chicago

Lindros vs. Trottier: Trottier is a borderline top 10 center, see above for my thoughts on Lindros. Both bring a physical game. Large advantage Couchiching

Syd Howe vs. Hodge: Howe is about an average 1st line LW that ca"do it all." See above for Hodge. Large advantage Chicago.

I think Richard over Kharlamov gives Chicago the edge overall for 1st lines.


2nd Lines

Apps vs. Savard: Apps is an average 1st line center playing on the 2nd line, a big advantage over Savard who is a below average 2nd line center in a draft this size. Large advantage Chicago.

Elias vs. Pitre: Each of these guys would be fine as a below-average 1st liner, and are therefore very good on a 2nd line. I give the edge to Elias, who tends to get underrated when looking at raw numbers. Being the best forward on a pseudo-dynasty is a great accomplishment. Small advantage Chicago

Ward vs. Nash: Ward was a player I didn't know much before this draft, but after reading up on him I like him as a 2nd line glue guy. Check out his bio for details, he's a fast gritty player that was often used to check his opponents' top wingers. Looking at 7yr vs.X Ward is only 0.7 pts behind Nash (69.2/68.5). In today's league that's less than a point over an entire season...Nash is the better goal scorer though and better offensive player, but I give Ward the edge defensively. I call this a Wash

Overall Large advantage Chicago...Apps is more than a handful on a 2nd line.


3rd Lines
Both set up as Checking units.

R. Backstrom vs. Carbonneau: Backstrom is probably better offensively, but Carbonneau gets the defensive edge, Carb's gap there is bigger than the offensive one, and checking is that's what these lines are primarily meant to do. Advantage Couchiching

Pulford vs. Gainey: Gainey generally regarded as the best defensive winger of all time, but Pulford really isn't far behind, and again probably better offensively. Small to moderate advantage Couchiching

Taylor vs. Toppazzini: Both great forecheckers, Taylor probably more physical, and despite the Marcel Dionne factor a better player offensively. Advantage Chicago

Overall 2 strong checking lines, Couchiching will likely do a better job defensively, but Chicago poses more of a threat the other way. Advantage Couchiching


4th Lines
These are tougher to compare. Chicago's is more of a traditional setup...two-way playmaking center in N. Backstrom, power forward finisher in Hadfield, and puckwinner/defensive guy in Graham. Couchiching has Nicholls playing wing, a position he did not play for most of his career. Stamkos is a fine center, but between those two there's a lot lacking in terms of defensive ability. Marshall is a fine all-around 4th liner, but IMO not good enough to carry the defensive load for this line. I would be nervous giving this line defensive zone starts (along with the Savard line), which means more for the Trottier line, which will hurt their offense.



I'll try to get to Dmen later today or tomorrow.

 

[Dreakmur]

- As already alluded to, Couchiching will likely try to use Gainey to check Maurice Richard as often as possible; however, that is their only real good option. Can Gainey and the 3rd line handle that much ice-time? Further, Chicago has home-ice and therefore last change more often than not, so Gorman will be able to send Richard out when Gainey is on the bench.

The best checkers in the draft can handle a lot of ice time, and Carbonneau and Gainey are certainly among that group.

You can be the best line-matching coach of all time, but you can't avoid checking match-ups unless you keep your best guys on the bench. I assume you want them on the ice, right?

If there is a face-off in my team's end, unless they are tired, I would assume Carbonneau's line takes that face off. Are you going to use your 3rd and 4th lines for offensive zone starts just to keep Richard and Apps away from Gainey and Carbonneau? If so, that's even better than actually having to shut them down!

- I see Couchiching as having a difficult time scoring goals with a large advantage for Chicago on the 2nd line and a 3rd line that does not provide much offense at all. That puts a ton of pressure on Couchiching's 1st line, and Chicago has a very solid shutdown D-pair of Gerard - Seibert

Chicago's second line is better, but that doesn't mean Couchiching's won't score.... and with Stamkos on the 4th, that unit will always score.

- Couchiching is a strong defensive team, but Chicago offers two options to attack that I believe will be effective.

Agreed that Carbonneau and Gainey can only really target one line. I definitely built that line for targeting loaded first lines.

Having said that, I do have Trottier, who I think is an excellent guy to be used as a secondary match-up guy. Also, with a second pairing that has Patrick and Coulter makes for a nice little bonus against second units.

 

[Dreakmur]

Elias vs. Pitre: Each of these guys would be fine as a below-average 1st liner, and are therefore very good on a 2nd line. I give the edge to Elias, who tends to get underrated when looking at raw numbers. Being the best forward on a pseudo-dynasty is a great accomplishment. Small advantage Chicago

I've said before that I'm not exactly sure how to quantify Pitre's offense, but I know it's definitely better than Elias'. Even ignoring Pitre's 2 seasons leading NHA defensemen in scoring, as well as his pre-NHA years, Pitre has just about the same vs. X scores as Elias.

Ward vs. Nash: Ward was a player I didn't know much before this draft, but after reading up on him I like him as a 2nd line glue guy. Check out his bio for details, he's a fast gritty player that was often used to check his opponents' top wingers. Looking at 7yr vs.X Ward is only 0.7 pts behind Nash (69.2/68.5). In today's league that's less than a point over an entire season...Nash is the better goal scorer though and better offensive player, but I give Ward the edge defensively. I call this a Wash

Out of curiosity, who were Ward's line-mates. Did he drive his team's offense, or benefit from others?

These are tougher to compare. Chicago's is more of a traditional setup...two-way playmaking center in N. Backstrom, power forward finisher in Hadfield, and puckwinner/defensive guy in Graham. Couchiching has Nicholls playing wing, a position he did not play for most of his career. Stamkos is a fine center, but between those two there's a lot lacking in terms of defensive ability. Marshall is a fine all-around 4th liner, but IMO not good enough to carry the defensive load for this line. I would be nervous giving this line defensive zone starts (along with the Savard line), which means more for the Trottier line, which will hurt their offense.

Couchiching's 4th line was build to score, not defend.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

The best checkers in the draft can handle a lot of ice time, and Carbonneau and Gainey are certainly among that group.

You can be the best line-matching coach of all time, but you can't avoid checking match-ups unless you keep your best guys on the bench. I assume you want them on the ice, right?

If there is a face-off in my team's end, unless they are tired, I would assume Carbonneau's line takes that face off. Are you going to use your 3rd and 4th lines for offensive zone starts just to keep Richard and Apps away from Gainey and Carbonneau? If so, that's even better than actually having to shut them down!

My comments were specific to Richard avoiding Gainey...I don't think both of my scoring lines can avoid your checking line. Also, there's still something to be said about giving extra minutes to your checking line...it takes ice time away from your scoring lines.

Chicago's second line is better, but that doesn't mean Couchiching's won't score.... and with Stamkos on the 4th, that unit will always score.

Couchiching's 4th line was build to score, not defend.

I see both of these lines having trouble getting the puck back...defensively they're likely the two worst in the series, and a lot of the time they will be facing lines that are better than they are.

I've said before that I'm not exactly sure how to quantify Pitre's offense, but I know it's definitely better than Elias'. Even ignoring Pitre's 2 seasons leading NHA defensemen in scoring, as well as his pre-NHA years, Pitre has just about the same vs. X scores as Elias.

Do you have the numbers for Pitre? I remember being surprised during the top wingers project how far behind the leaders he was some years. Obviously his seasons at D will be more difficult to evaluate. He also usually had Newsy Lalonde on his team right? Whereas Elias was usually the best offensive player on his team.

Out of curiosity, who were Ward's line-mates. Did he drive his team's offense, or benefit from others?

Ward played primarily with Baldy Northcott...at times their center was Hooley Smith, but apparently they changed centers often. I would not say Ward was the driving force of his team's or line's offense to the extent that Nash was, but he was also played primarily against his opponents' top lines in a checking role.

 

[Dreakmur]

My comments were specific to Richard avoiding Gainey...I don't think both of my scoring lines can avoid your checking line. Also, there's still something to be said about giving extra minutes to your checking line...it takes ice time away from your scoring lines.

So, if Gainey lines up for a defensive zone face-off, Richard is going to stay on the bench? I'm fine with that. I'll tell Trotz to put Gainey out all the time!

My checking line probably plays more than the Savard and Stamkos lines, and I'm fine with that. Though, Toppazzini will probably get subbed out a bid.

I see both of these lines having trouble getting the puck back...defensively they're likely the two worst in the series, and a lot of the time they will be facing lines that are better than they are.

They certainly are not going to scare anyone, but they're all what I would call "willing battlers". Nash and Pitre are probably the least gritty, but their big enough to win their share of puck, right?

Do you have the numbers for Pitre? I remember being surprised during the top wingers project how far behind the leaders he was some years. Obviously his seasons at D will be more difficult to evaluate. He also usually had Newsy Lalonde on his team right? Whereas Elias was usually the best offensive player on his team.

I just took this out of his profile - 105, 100, 91, 62, 61, 55, 55, 50, 50. Those, I am quite sure, are his vs. X numbers based on my consolidation project. That starts in 1912, so anything he did before that is not counted in those numbers.

Yeah, I believe he played regularly with Newsy Lalonde, but he did outscore him a few times at least.

 

[jarek]

My comments were specific to Richard avoiding Gainey...I don't think both of my scoring lines can avoid your checking line. Also, there's still something to be said about giving extra minutes to your checking line...it takes ice time away from your scoring lines.

This is a big part of the reason why I hate pure checking lines, though Dreak did kind of show during either the assassinations or lineup advice that at least Carbonneau appeared to be an above average threat to score at ES.

I see both of these lines having trouble getting the puck back...defensively they're likely the two worst in the series, and a lot of the time they will be facing lines that are better than they are.

If a line is significantly more talented than another line, in general, I lean towards that line having the puck more often than not, regardless of who starts with it. Also, when it comes time to actually retrieve the puck from the defensive zone, the defensemen play a much bigger role than the forwards. Those talented forwards can then move the puck up ice. (I am specifically referring to Couchiching's 4th line)

I just don't really believe things are as clear cut as you make them out to be. There are too many factors involved. That being said, if it's actually true that Chicago's lines will be more talented in general than their counterparts, then yes, Couchiching is going to want to closely manage the zone starts for the 2nd and 4th lines.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

As already alluded to, Couchiching will likely try to use Gainey to check Maurice Richard as often as possible; however, that is their only real good option. Can Gainey and the 3rd line handle that much ice-time? Further, Chicago has home-ice and therefore last change more often than not, so Gorman will be able to send Richard out when Gainey is on the bench

So, if Gainey lines up for a defensive zone face-off, Richard is going to stay on the bench? I'm fine with that. I'll tell Trotz to put Gainey out all the time!

Ok let's be more specific on this, so we can stop wasting everyone's time. Of course Richard will not completely avoid offensive zone draws if Gainey is out there. I did not mean to imply in my initial comment above that Richard would never see Gainey when Chicago has home ice. That is impossible and completely unrealistic. The point was that last change will allow Gorman opportunities to get Richard some shifts against other lines, and those other lines do not have a good option to match up against Chicago's first line. As you said, the Trottier line is the best second-option Couchiching has, but that line does not have a LW capable of checking Richard.

 

[Hobnobs]

Ok let's be more specific on this, so we can stop wasting everyone's time. Of course Richard will not completely avoid offensive zone draws if Gainey is out there. I did not mean to imply in my initial comment above that Richard would never see Gainey when Chicago has home ice. That is impossible and completely unrealistic. The point was that last change will allow Gorman opportunities to get Richard some shifts against other lines, and those other lines do not have a good option to match up against Chicago's first line. As you said, the Trottier line is the best second-option Couchiching has, but that line does not have a LW capable of checking Richard.

I could see Jack Marshall doing alright vs Richard. Atleast from what I know of him.

tbh this series is exciting to follow. Keep it up guys!

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I just took this out of his profile - 105, 100, 91, 62, 61, 55, 55, 50, 50. Those, I am quite sure, are his vs. X numbers based on my consolidation project. That starts in 1912, so anything he did before that is not counted in those numbers.

Yeah, I believe he played regularly with Newsy Lalonde, but he did outscore him a few times at least.

Can you remind me how you convert the PCHA scorers to be comparable to NHA scorers? I know they usually played less games in PCHA but were higher scoring. In the meantime I'll just use the above for a brief vs.X comparison.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I could see Jack Marshall doing alright vs Richard. Atleast from what I know of him.

tbh this series is exciting to follow. Keep it up guys!

Based on what? I don't see anything in his profile showing experience checking the elite scorers of his era. Also, there's the rest of Marshal's line to consider...Lindros/Howe vs. Stamkos/Nicholls.

 

[Hobnobs]

Based on what? I don't see anything in his profile showing experience checking the elite scorers of his era. Also, there's the rest of Marshal's line to consider...Lindros/Howe vs. Stamkos/Nicholls.

Based on that he could play defense, "had tremendous speed and was physically intimidating to play against".

And I wrote that he would probably be alright. Not that he would shut Richard down.

 

[jarek]

Ok let's be more specific on this, so we can stop wasting everyone's time. Of course Richard will not completely avoid offensive zone draws if Gainey is out there. I did not mean to imply in my initial comment above that Richard would never see Gainey when Chicago has home ice. That is impossible and completely unrealistic. The point was that last change will allow Gorman opportunities to get Richard some shifts against other lines, and those other lines do not have a good option to match up against Chicago's first line. As you said, the Trottier line is the best second-option Couchiching has, but that line does not have a LW capable of checking Richard.

Why does it have to be Gainey shadowing Richard? Any player on Couchiching's line would do the job just fine. The LW wouldn't follow his check deep into the defensive zone anyways.. far more interesting to me is how Couchiching's defense will handle Richard, and he's got at least one guy on each pair that should be able to handle him. Weber and Coulter especially. I think the D on F matchups are far more important than the F on F matchups.

 

[Dreakmur]

Can you remind me how you convert the PCHA scorers to be comparable to NHA scorers? I know they usually played less games in PCHA but were higher scoring. In the meantime I'll just use the above for a brief vs.X comparison.

I equalizes goals per game in both leagues. I also equalized games played. I also have another one for equalized assists per goal, but I don't know if I applied that one or not for Pitre.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why does it have to be Gainey shadowing Richard? Any player on Couchiching's line would do the job just fine. The LW wouldn't follow his check deep into the defensive zone anyways.. far more interesting to me is how Couchiching's defense will handle Richard, and he's got at least one guy on each pair that should be able to handle him. Weber and Coulter especially. I think the D on F matchups are far more important than the F on F matchups.

What's the point of drafting Gainey so high if you aren't going to have him shadow one of the best wingers in this league? I assume that's a big part of Couchiching's game plan.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

A crude look at 7yr vs.X for the players on each team's top 2 lines:


Richard: 102.4
Trottier: 93.7
Apps: 92.4
Kharlamov:90*
Denis Savard: 85.5
Lindros: 85.0
Howe: 83.9
Hodge: 83.2 (70.7)**
Elias: 78.9
Pitre: 75.6***
Nash: 69.2
Ward: 68.5

TOTAL Chicago: 511.1 / 85.2 avg
TOTAL Couchiching: 497.2 (484.7) / 82.9 (80.8) avg


*Kharlamov obviously doesn't have a vs.X score...I put 90 as a guess. Here are some comparables:
Geoffrion: 89.9
Selanne: 92.7
Mahovlich: 87.8

Kharlamov's Soviet league scoring finishes from Dreak's bio:
Points – 1st(1972), 2nd(1971), 3rd(1969), 3rd(1970), 4th(1975), 4th(1978), 5th(1976), 5th(1979), 6th(1974), 9th(1977), 10th(1973).
I'm betting someone has done Soviet League vs.X before...if anyone knows where I can find that please share


**Hodge's vs.X is inflated from playing on the 70's Bruins...the question is how much? I have no idea, for reference, the number in parenthesis deducts 15%, which was just a flat out guess on my part. Looking at other players it puts him just above guys like Gaborik, Nieuwendyk, Barber, Nash, Gartner, and Ciccarelli.


***Used the scores from Dreak's bio. It should be noted that Pitre spent time on D


Notes:
-Vs.X measures offense only...I think that Chicago's scoring line forwards bring more non-offensive abilities than Couchiching

-Vs.X tends to overly punish non-durable players

-Vs.X measures regular season scoring only, adjustments should be made for playoff performances

 

[Dreakmur]

It's not just that Pitre spend time on defense. He was a full time defenseman in 1910 and 1911, when he led all defenseman in scoring.

 

[jarek]

I don't think I would use 90 for Kharlamov. His Soviet league scoring wasn't that good. Kharlamov's case is made with his international play.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

tbh this series is exciting to follow. Keep it up guys!

Our division is going for the ATD Best Participation Award!

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

A crude look at 7yr vs.X for the players on each team's top 2 lines:


Richard: 102.4
Trottier: 93.7
Apps: 92.4
Kharlamov:90*
Denis Savard: 85.5
Lindros: 85.0
Howe: 83.9
Hodge: 83.2 (70.7)**
Elias: 78.9
Pitre: 75.6***
Nash: 69.2
Ward: 68.5

TOTAL Chicago: 511.1 / 85.2 avg
TOTAL Couchiching: 497.2 (484.7) / 82.9 (80.8) avg


*Kharlamov obviously doesn't have a vs.X score...I put 90 as a guess. Here are some comparables:
Geoffrion: 89.9
Selanne: 92.7
Mahovlich: 87.8

Kharlamov's Soviet league scoring finishes from Dreak's bio:
Points – 1st(1972), 2nd(1971), 3rd(1969), 3rd(1970), 4th(1975), 4th(1978), 5th(1976), 5th(1979), 6th(1974), 9th(1977), 10th(1973).
I'm betting someone has done Soviet League vs.X before...if anyone knows where I can find that please share


**Hodge's vs.X is inflated from playing on the 70's Bruins...the question is how much? I have no idea, for reference, the number in parenthesis deducts 15%, which was just a flat out guess on my part. Looking at other players it puts him just above guys like Gaborik, Nieuwendyk, Barber, Nash, Gartner, and Ciccarelli.


***Used the scores from Dreak's bio. It should be noted that Pitre spent time on D


Notes:
-Vs.X measures offense only...I think that Chicago's scoring line forwards bring more non-offensive abilities than Couchiching

-Vs.X tends to overly punish non-durable players

-Vs.X measures regular season scoring only, adjustments should be made for playoff performances

I don't think it would be unfair to give Kharlamov a Selanne rating of around 93-94.

I think a guy like Firsov would be around the 90.0 mark.

 

[jarek]

I don't think it would be unfair to give Kharlamov a Selanne rating of around 93-94.

I think a guy like Firsov would be around the 90.0 mark.

Kharlamov did not score in the Soviet league the way guys like Selanne or Mahovlich scored in the NHL. Not even close. It would be interesting to see how Kharlamov does in a Vs2 study for his domestic scoring, and I'm not even sure if he'd hit 90 in that..