Jim Robson Division 1st Round - Victoria Salsa vs Pittsburgh Hornets

[TheDevilMadeMe]

VICTORIA SALSA​

Head Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain: Jean Beliveau
Alternate Captains: Alex Delvecchio, Earl Seibert

Doug Mohns - Jean Beliveau (C) – Rod Gilbert
Alex Delvecchio (A) – Mickey MacKay – Vic Stasiuk
Don Marshall - Ralph Backstrom –Claude Provost
Camille Henry - Ivan Hlinka - Cully Wilson

Doug Wilson - Earl Seibert (A)
Barry Beck – Alexei Kasatonov
Carol Vadnais - Jamie Macoun

Spares: Eric Staal - C, Dave "Tiger" Williams - LW, Stan Smyl - RW, Brian Engblom - D

Martin Brodeur
Mike Vernon

PP1
Camille Henry - Jean Beliveau – Rod Gilbert
Alex Delvecchio – Doug Wilson

PP2
Doug Mohns – Ivan Hlinka - Mickey MacKay
Barry Beck – Carol Vadnais


PK 1
Don Marshall – Claude Provost
Earl Seibert - Alexei Kasatonov

PK 2
Alex Delvecchio - Mickey MacKay
Jamie Macoun – Barry Beck
​

VS.

Pittsburgh Hornets​

GM: 87and71
Head Coach: Scotty Bowman
Captain: Ted Lindsay
Alternate Captain: Daniel Alfredsson
Alternate Captain: Scott Niedermayer


Ted Lindsay C - Adam Oates - Mike Bossy
Ilya Kovalchuk - Mats Sundin - Daniel Alfredsson A
Bob Pulford - Pavel Datsyuk- Dirk Graham
Bob Bourne - Bernie Nicholls - Terry O'Reilly
Boris Mayorov - Craig MacTavish - Boris Mayorov

Serge Savard - Scott Niedermayer A
Flash Hollett - Red Dutton
Viktor Kuzkin - Ken Morrow
Nikolai Sologubov Willie Mitchell

Tom Barrasso
Hap Holmes

Power Play 1:

Ted Lindsay - Adam Oates - Mike Bossy
Ilya Kovalchuk - Flash Hollett

Power Play 2:

Mats Sundin - Pavel Datsyuk - Daniel Alfredsson
Scott Niedermayer - Viktor Kuzkin

Penalty Kill 1:

Bob Pulford - Dirk Graham
Serge Savard - Red Dutton

Penalty Kill 2:

Bob Bourne/Craig MacTavish - Daniel Alfredsson
Scott Niedermayer - Ken Morrow​

​

Click to read more...

 

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I think where the Hornets will have a distinct advantage over the Salsa is overall talent across the 4 F lines, as well special teams play, particularly on the PP. Bowman is a noted advantage behind the bench and i think the defensive pairings are pretty close, although i'd give a very slight nod to the Salsa honestly. I have incredible leadership, as noted in the assasination threads and 4 Conn Smythe winners (Bossy, Pulford/retro, Savard, Niedermayer) with 2 others who could have easily won in championship years (Bourne/Barrasso).

Beliveau is an elite C in the all time sense. He's arguably the greatest leader as well. However, his wingers leave a lot to be desired IMO and i think put far to much pressure on Beliveau to carry the load on that 1st line. Consider that Gilbert on the 1st line has a lower VsX score than both my 1st and 2nd line RW's. Mohns is a very weak 2nd line LW IMO and spent a considerable amount of time in his career on the blueline, so his overall value at LW is questionable to a certain degree. Certainly a ? on a 1st line in an ATD.

Beliveau's VsX is 4th best overall all time among C's. However, Mohn's is not registered and Gilbert ranks BELOW my 4th line C Bernie Nicholls for example in 7 year weighted Vsx. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1361409&page=4

I believe that i can neutralize his first line effectively with Pulford-Datsyuk-Graham. I have doubts that his top line will find much in the way vs the stellar defensive play of that shutdown line above, as well as much time vs my top pairing on D (Savard/Niedermayer). Datsyuk and Savard are the perfect types to be able to slow down Beliveau. I think this set up will frustrate JB as he'll have little room to operate and wingers that simply won't have the time or space to factor into the game much. I could see some frustrations and mistakes, meaning counter abilites from a stellar shutdown line but also one that can be effective going the other way. Look for Bowman to rotate Sundin and Datsyuk as well given that Beliveau is a bigger player that Sundin physically matches up with. I trust Bowman's ability to maximize matchups here.

While the Salsa has one of the better defensive/checking lines in the ATD, it is a rather small unit size wise. Nobody over 5'10" or 168 lbs. That could pose problems if Bowman can get lines with speed and size (Kovalchuk/Sundin/Alfredsson) to challenge them. Bowman was the absolute best at line matching and mixing his own lines to take advantage of weaknesses in the other teams set up. What you need to beat that 3rd line is a group of F's who can get the puck in deep and then win battles in the corners. It wouldn't surprise me to see O'Reilly moved up a few times, along with Pulford to do just that. Not easy by any stretch but a strategy that could produce some chances, even against that 3rd line.

I would say that i have an advantage slightly when looking at top D pairings. Seibert is a slightly better #1 than Savard, but there is a bigger gap when looking at Niedermayer vs Wilson IMO.

I like the transition abilities of Niedermayer and Hollett from the back end in terms of getting the puck up the walls and through the middle when space is available. Both were elite skaters and puck movers. The other factor to consider is my considerable advantage offensively allows my D to be able to hang back a bit more and not have to take as many chances jumping into the offensive zone with pinches and rushes that could leave the Hornets vulnerable to counters.

Obviously the advantage that the Salsa holds will be in net. Brodeur is a fantastic netminder, one who ranks 5/6th all time in my book. Barrasso is one of the few goalies that can nearly match Marty's ability to handle the puck and be an asset in that regard though. And Barrasso played in an era where he was used to seeing a ton of rubber, although given the offensive makeup of the Salsa, i don't think he'll be bombarded. I built a F group with multiple outstanding 2 way and defensive minded players to help out with a D that is very solid in their own end (minus Hollett).

I'd also look for Bowman to use Kuzkin with Dutton as well time to time to bolster the defensive awareness of the 2nd pairing. Outside of the top 2 lines, the Salas simply don't have much scoring or playmaking depth among their F's and as i pointed out the 1st line is pretty much Beliveau on an island in an overall ATD sense.

The other issue i see working in my advantage is that the Salsa's Dmen are more prone to penalties than my group. Doug Wilson averaged over 0.8 PIMs per game, with Earl Seibert over 1 per contest. Contrast that with Savard (0.57) and Niedermayer (0.62) who are significantly lower. Dutton is the only Dman that i have who will see the penalty box with any regularity. Seibert, Beck (1.65), Vadnais (1.67) and Macoun (1.07) are all guys who spent more than their fair share in the sin bin. I believe this bodes well for my stellar F group, and obviously my PP which is very strong, especially the lethal 1st unit.

I truly believe that my scoring/playmaking depth is a big advantage and the Salsa will simply not be able to contain it over 3 periods. I think Bowman will be able to out pace Imlach given the make up of the teams and we can keep the play in the Salsa's end for long stretches.

I had some time on my hands with a long break between picks, here are 10 best weighted seasons according to VsX. I haven't looked around a roster thread so some of these guys may not be top sixers. Some of the undrafteds will go in the ATD, but I wouldn't be surprised if some don't - maybe they should though. Either way I'll edit them in if and when they're selected.
G. Howe 122.9
Jagr 108.9
Richard 103.0
Bo. Hull 102.8
Lindsay 100.4
Bathgate 99.9
Lafleur 95.0
Bossy 91.1
Selanne 90.3
Blake 89.3
Bill Cook 89.0
C. Conacher 87.9
Bentley 87.8
Geoffrion 86.8
Recchi 86.0
Br. Hull 85.8
Schriner 85.2
Delvechhio 84.9
Bucyk 84.1
S. Howe 83.9
Jackson 83.7
Kurri 83.6
Iginla 83.3
Mahovlich 82.9
Robitaille 82.3
St. Louis 81.6
Moore 81.3
R. Conacher 81.3
Kariya 81.0
Abel 80.4
Kovachulchuk 79.7
Fleury 79.6
Alfredsson 79.5
Gilbert 78.8
Joliat 78.5
Hossa 78.5
Bure 77.3
Mosienko 77.1
Mar. Naslund 77.0
Shanahan 76.1
(undrafted) 75.8
Tkachuk 75.6
Heatley 75.2
Elias 75.0
Mogilny 75.0
LeClair 74.9
Hodge 74.7
Goulet 74.6
Thompson 73.7
L. Patrick 73.6
Palffy 73.2
Olmstead 72.9
Hextall 72.7
Damphousse 72.2
Ovechkin 71.9
Bun Cook 71.4
Rousseau 71.3
Dumart 71.0
Dillon 70.9
Sedin 70.7
Demita 70.7
Gottselig 70.6
Cournoyer 70.3
McDonald 70.2
Larmer 69.8
Amonte 69.8
Hejduk 69.7
H. Lewis 69.6
Drillon 69.4
Middleton 69.3
Bondra 69.0
Ciccarelli 68.5
Mullen 68.2
G. Anderson 67.7
Andreychuk 67.5
Barber 66.8
Gartner 66.8
Prentice 66.3
Taylor 66.3
Aurie 66.2
(undrafted) 66.0
Propp 65.5
Wharram 65.1
Shutt 64.8
Gaborik 64.6
Nolan 64.4
R. Martin 64.2
Doan 64.0
J. Ward 62.8
Robert 62.2
Stevens 61.8
Verbeek 61.8
G. Stewart 61.7
Cashman 61.0
Litzenberger 60.9
Guerin 60.9
Northcott 60.2
Bauer 60.1
Hadfield 60.1
Nevin 60.0
Pronovost 59.9
K. Nilsson 59.8
Armstrong 59.5
Roberts 59.3
Tocchet 58.7
S. Smith 58.7
Simmer 58.6
Stasiuk 58.4
(undrafted) 57.9
H. Watson 57.4
Neely 57.0
Nash 56.4
Bailey 55.7
Duff 55.6
Gare 55.3
Tonelli 55.2
Mats Naslund 54.8
Kerr 54.7
Gillies 54.4
C. Lemieux 52.3
Tikkanen 50.8

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.1
2 | Phil Esposito | 123.4
3 | Mario Lemieux | 120.4
4 | Jean Beliveau | 108.9
5 | Stan Mikita | 108.1
6 | Bill Cowley* | 103.5
7 | Marcel Dionne | 103.2
8 | Howie Morenz | 102.8
9 | Joe Sakic | 97.9
10 | Frank Boucher | 95.4
11 | Elmer Lach* | 95.4
12 | Max Bentley* | 94.9
13 | Steve Yzerman | 93.5
14 | Bryan Trottier | 93.5
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
16 | Syl Apps Sr | 93
17 | Peter Forsberg | 90.9
18 | Nels Stewart | 90.5
19 | Adam Oates | 90.2
20 | Marty Barry | 89.9
21 | Mark Messier | 89.5
22 | Norm Ullman | 88.7
23 | Jean Ratelle | 88.5
24 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
25 | Sid Abel | 87.8
26 | Bobby Clarke | 87.6
27 | Ron Francis | 87.6
28 | Milt Schmidt | 87.5
29 | Henri Richard | 86.2
30 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
31 | Denis Savard | 85.4
32 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
33 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
34 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
35 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
36 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
37 | Sidney Crosby | 82.4
38 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
40 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
41 | Mike Modano | 81.7
42 | Henrik Sedin | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
47 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
48 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
49 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
50 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
51 | Doug Weight | 78.6
52 | Brad Richards | 78.4
53 | Phil Watson | 78.1
54 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
55 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
56 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
57 | Joe Primeau | 76
58 | Don McKenney | 75.8
59 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
60 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
61 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
62 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
63 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
64 | Marc Savard | 73.9
65 | Eric Staal | 73.8
66 | Neil Colville | 73.2
67 | Evgeni Malkin | 73.2
68 | Henrik Zetterberg | 73.2
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2
70 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8
71 | Tod Sloan | 72.8
72 | Kent Nilsson | 71.7
73 | Dennis Maruk | 71.7
74 | Rick MacLeish | 71.6
75 | Buddy O'Connor* | 71.3
76 | Patrick Marleau | 71
77 | Ed Litzenberger | 70.8
78 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 70.5
79 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
80 | Billy Taylor* | 69.5
81 | Paul Ronty | 69.1
82 | Bobby Smith | 69.1
83 | Olli Jokinen | 68.5
84 | Scott Gomez | 68.1
85 | Steve Sullivan | 68
86 | Pit Martin | 67.9
87 | Craig Janney | 67.9
88 | Jason Allison | 67.2
89 | Garry Unger | 67
90 | Syl Apps | 66.9
91 | Butch Goring | 66.7
92 | Art Jackson* | 66.7
93 | Mike Ribeiro | 66.4
94 | Petr Nedved | 66.4
95 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
96 | Pierre Larouche | 66.1
97 | Art Chapman | 66
98 | Alex Zhamnov | 65.9
99 | Murray Oliver | 65.1
100 | Barry Pederson | 65
101 | Walt Tkaczuk | 64.9
102 | Red Berenson | 64.9
103 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
104 | Ryan Getzlaf | 64.6
105 | Neal Broten | 64.5
106 | Vaclav Prospal | 64.5
107 | Tom Lysiak | 64
108 | Michael Nylander | 63.7
109 | Jozef Stumpel | 63.1

* wartime star

 

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Top-7 weighted VsX for Left Wings (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
2 | Ted Lindsay | 106
3 | Doug Bentley* ** | 96.2
4 | Toe Blake* | 92.6
5 | Alex Ovechkin | 92.1
6 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
7 | Busher Jackson | 90
8 | Roy Conacher** | 88.8
9 | Dickie Moore | 88.6
10 | Syd Howe* | 87.9
11 | Sid Abel | 87.8
12 | John Bucyk | 86.3
13 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
14 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
15 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
16 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
17 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
18 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
19 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
20 | Aurel Joliat | 83.1
21 | John LeClair | 82.1
22 | Lynn Patrick* | 81.2
23 | Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
24 | Michel Goulet | 79.3
25 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
26 | Patrik Elias | 79.2
27 | Bert Olmstead | 76.9
28 | Daniel Sedin | 76.9
29 | Bun Cook | 76.6
30 | Herbie Lewis | 75.6
31 | Pavol Demitra | 75.2
32 | Johnny Gottselig | 75
33 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
34 | Milan Hejduk | 73.8
35 | Woody Dumart | 73.5
36 | Gaye Stewart* | 73.1
37 | Ray Whitney | 73
38 | Alex Tanguay | 72.5
39 | Herb Cain* | 72.2
40 | Patrick Marleau | 71
41 | Steve Shutt | 70.8
42 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
43 | Rick Martin | 70.2
44 | Dave Andreychuk | 69.4
45 | Baldy Northcott | 69.3
46 | Sid Smith | 69.1
47 | Bill Barber | 68.6
48 | Camille Henry | 68.6
49 | Miroslav Satan | 68.6
50 | Dean Prentice | 68
51 | Kevin Stevens | 67.8
52 | Brian Propp | 67
53 | Vic Stasiuk | 66.5
54 | Shane Doan | 66.3
55 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
56 | Charlie Simmer | 65.5
57 | Dennis Hull | 65.2
58 | Kirk Muller | 65
59 | Wayne Cashman | 65
60 | Red Berenson | 64.9
61 | Brian Bellows | 64.9
62 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
63 | Greg Adams | 64.5
64 | Bill Hay | 64.3
66 | Mats Naslund | 63.5
67 | Vyacheslav Kozlov | 63.5
68 | Rick Nash | 63.5
69 | Simon Gagne | 63.1

* wartime star

** 1949-50 Chicago

above

 

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Updated with some more info in my first reply.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Just a general comment, you need to take era into account when comparing the sizes of players. Player size has increased over time so you can't just take the raw numbers and say look how much bigger player A who played in the 2000's is than player B from the O6 era. You need to look at how big each player was for their era.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Oh, no doubt. I do think however, that his 3rd line is still slightly below average, even for the 06 era in which they played. 5'9", give or take an inch, and anywhere from 160-180 lbs was still rather small, for 50's/60's/70's.....and guys like Kovalchuk and Sundin (2nd line players on my squad) are all quite bigger than the average player today.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just a general comment, you need to take era into account when comparing the sizes of players. Player size has increased over time so you can't just take the raw numbers and say look how much bigger player A who played in the 2000's is than player B from the O6 era. You need to look at how big each player was for their era.

Yes, reason being that the average human has grown in size over the decades as nutritional standards for children have improved, and nutritional standards when a player was a child have nothing to do with his skill as a hockey player.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Victoria Wins in 5 GAMES

 

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Tough to go out rather quickly in 5 games. Thought i might stand a chance over a guy who went MIA. I could see the Salsa winning, but personally think the series would go 6 or even 7 games, either way.

Good luck to everyone in the next round! I'll be around everyday and will vote on each matchup.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Tough to go out rather quickly in 5 games. Thought i might stand a chance over a guy who went MIA. I could see the Salsa winning, but personally think the series would go 6 or even 7 games, either way.

Good luck to everyone in the next round! I'll be around everyday and will vote on each matchup.

Keep in mind that the way the voting works it doesn't mean that people actually voted thinking that you'd lose in 5 games.

It is confusing every year.