Jim Coleman Conference Semi Finals - Vancouver Millionaires (2) vs Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (3)

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BEST OF SEVEN FORMAT:


Vancouver Millionaires (2 Seed)

Coach: Lester Patrick

Syd Howe --- Phil Esposito --- Hooley Smith (A)
Gordon Roberts --- Connor McDavid --- Nikita Kucherov
Fred Harris --- Patrice Bergeron --- Mickey MacKay
Ilya Kovalchuk --- Igor Larionov --- Eddie Oatman

Eddie Gerard (C) - Bobby Orr
Cyclone Taylor - Valeri Vasiliev (A)
Mike Grant - Cy Wentworth

Vladislav Tretiak
Andrei Vasilevskiy

Spares: Frank Patrick, D ; Tommy Smith, LW/C ; Mark Stone, RW

PP1: McDavid --- Esposito --- Kucherov --- Taylor --- Orr
PP2: Howe --- MacKay --- Roberts --- Kovalchuk --- Orr/Taylor
PK1: Smith --- Bergeron --- Gerard --- Orr
PK2: MacKay --- Howe --- Vasiliev --- Wentworth


VS

Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (3 Seed)​

COACH: Tommy Gorman

CAPTAIN: Milt Schmidt
ASSISTANT: Nicklas Lidstrom
ASSISTANT: Charlie Gardiner

Cy Denneny - Milt Schmidt (C) - Guy Lafleur
Tommy Phillips - Max Bentley - Yvan Cournoyer
Herbie Lewis - Frank Frederickson - Larry Aurie
Bun Cook - Ralph Backstrom - Ed Litzenberger

Nicklas Lidstrom (A) - Jack Stewart
Ken Reardon - Earl Seibert
Lester Patrick - Adam Foote

Charlie Gardiner (A)
Henrik Lundquist

ex: Tim Kerr, Ryan McDonagh, Vincent Lecavalier

PP1: Denneny - Schmidt - Lafleur - Bentley - Lidstrom
PP2: Phillips - Frederickson - Cournoyer - Reardon - Seibert

PK1: Frederickson - Phillips - Lidstrom - Stewart
PK2: Lewis - Schmidt - Reardon - Seibert

Click to read more...

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not shocked our paths crossed @The Macho King good luck this series

I know @rmartin65 is preparing some stuff, I'm navigating some work stuff right now but will do my best to try and be moderately active in this series

 

[The Macho King]

Not shocked our paths crossed @The Macho King good luck this series

I know @rmartin65 is preparing some stuff, I'm navigating some work stuff right now but will do my best to try and be moderately active in this series

I'll get to tearing down your roster later.

As to me being the underdog...

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'll get to tearing down your roster later.

As to me being the underdog...

Yes the star of the Renfrew Creamery Kings will rise to the top, very prophetic of you

 

[The Macho King]

Just saying - if this discussion doesn't feel like we're doing a bunch of 80s and 90s wrestling promos, I'll be disappointed.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Just saying - if this discussion doesn't feel like we're doing a bunch of 80s and 90s wrestling promos, I'll be disappointed.

Cyclone Taylor in response to any critism of playing a position perfectly suited to his skillset and his actual playing experience

 

[rmartin65]

I was really hoping to have more time to devote to this, but I ended up having to spend more time on yardwork/honey-do tasks than I anticipated.

In short, even though I really like Macho's team (that top line in particular is nice!), I think Vancouver's ability to roll offense in waves will win them the series. The Esposito line can score has the strongest offensive forward in the series. The McDavid line. Kovalchuk and Larionov connecting on the 4th line against Roanoke's third pairing. Orr or Taylor on the ice for 50+ minutes a game to boost offense from the blue line.

The Millionaires also have the best defensive line in the series, as well as the superior goalie.

 

[Sturminator]

We should really include Vancouver's coach in the OP. I had forgotten that it was Lester Patrick and was asking myself how this team will operate offensively with such different units. Having Patrick assuages a lot of that concern for me.

 

[The Macho King]

So I want to first give my overall view on the teams, and then I'll drill down on the specifics.

Overall I think our forwards are an advantage to Roanoke, our Defensemen are pretty much a wash, and goaltending is a wash. And overall I think that comes down to your second line. For modern players, I just don't think McDavid and Kucherov have enough of a resume to be considered top end forwards, and are inferior (in this setting) to Bentley and Cournoyer. As far as Phillips v. Roberts - that's a clear advantage to Roanoke. Your first line is spent two picks to attempt to cover the weaknesses of one player, which leads to an effective but ultimately undertalented line. Your third line is a great checking line no doubt, but ultimately relying on them as a match up line means you'll have them on the ice a lot and sacrifice scoring, and finally your fourth line is basically a special teams line. Kovalchuk is a volume shooter and getting ~8 minutes a night of ice time is going to leave him as basically a PP specialist.

I like the way my D is constructed better than yours overall, but obviously your top pair is the class of the league, and you have good talent throughout. I don't know where I'd rank Taylor as a defensemen as far as a #1 or #2 in this format, but no matter what I think Seibert is more than his match.

The issue with Taylor I'll go onto later, but ultimately at least in the ATD meta, he has always received full marks for his performance as a C - it seems wild to assume he would also get full marks as a D. Also, I'll note that @ResilientBeast drafted Taylor *last year* and used him as a C.

Overall, I think Vancouver built an interesting team, but it is one that has some pretty clear weaknesses that can be exploited by a balanced squad - which I have.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The issue with Taylor I'll go onto later, but ultimately at least in the ATD meta, he has always received full marks for his performance as a C - it seems wild to assume he would also get full marks as a D. Also, I'll note that @ResilientBeast drafted Taylor *last year* and used him as a C.

I drafted him in 2019 and used him as a D.....so it's not like this is some gotcha lol

I've spent years trying to find the right fit to get him over the hump, naturally I will experiment with his position.

Because he's the only player taken in like the first 50 picks worth doing it.

Edit: Honestly that is such a bad faith argument

 

[ResilientBeast]

Defensemen are pretty much a wash, and goaltending is a wash

Are they?

Orr is clearly better than Lidstrom
Gerard is better than Stewart
Taylor v Seibert is really interesting and probably slightly tipped towards you just based on longevity at the position
Vasiliev is clearly better than Reardon

You do have an advantage on your bottom pairing because Lester is a luxury, but he's a luxury depth piece playing maybe 12 minutes a night?

There is no way our D are a wash it's a decisive advantage for us.

I'll concede on goaltending being a wash, especially in the playoffs

 

[ResilientBeast]

Frank Frederickson on PK1?

Not sure if anyone keyed in on that before, that seems like miscasting to me. He's going to get eaten alive by our top unit PP.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Why Taylor is perfectly fine at defense

Play Style
Taylor a noted fantastic skater initially played rover/C in the IHL but was moved to D where his all around game is notable. He started playing rover/C in the IHL before he was moved to defense, where he was counted among the league's stars

All the following quotes come from the Globe unless otherwise stated

11 Jan 1907

....and Taylor at defence and Cochrane forward were the starts for Houghton....

I'm 95% sure this is my Fred Taylor
11 Feb 1907

Fred Taylor of the Houghton team is the most sensational development of the season in the International League. He joined the team as a forward. He was tried at point when the team was hard up for a men and is a wonder in the position. He is the fastest skater ever seen in International League company

01 Mar 1907

Fred Taylor was again the star of the game

(Taylor listed at Cover Point)

18 Mar 1907

By common consent the finest player in the International League this season was Fred Taylor, the Listowel boy, who played with Houghton. Taylor learned his hockey on a small rink and worked his way into the international when the OHA refused to allow him to play with the Thessalon team a few seasons ago

He then moves to the ECHA/ECAHA with Ottawa

In 1909 he had his greatest season at hockey and it was chiefly because Green kept coaching him on the necessity of passing the puck and blocking the man, that the Cyclone was so useful.

06 Jan 1908

The ice in the first quarter was hard and fast, but after half-time it was soon covered with water, but both teams kept up the fast pace to the finish. For the visitors Phillips and Taylor were the stars....
(Taylor listed at Right-Wing)

13 Jan 1908

But the Wanderers are not the same team now, nor as good as they were a year ago, while Ottawa has probably the greatest bunch that ever wore the club colours. Taylor was the big man of the evening, bigger than even Tom Phillips in the matter of speed. There was some doubt as to how he would figure, but he made them all look like road rollers in comparison. Ottawa's defence was too strong for the Wanderers....

(Taylor listed at Cover Point)

Now all the quotes I've ever found about Taylor's all around game and grit come from his time out east except for the PCHA MVP he was awarded.

13 Jan 1908 - See my note, he was a cover for this game

Taylor, who was on the line the night the team was beaten in Quebec (TDMM - I assume this means at forward, RB if this is the same game he was at CP), was in Moore's position at cover point, increasing the efficiency of the defence about 50 percent. He was ruled off 4 times in the game, twice for heavy bodychecking and twice for slashing Wanderer forwards over the arms. His play, while on the rough side, was very effective; he was a hard man to get by and towards the end he stirred up the crowd by lightning rushes from end to end of the rink. He scored Ottawa's sixth and seventh goal on such dashes and was also responsible for the twelth, although Phillips landed the disc in the twine.

With Taylor off, the Wanderer forwards found it easier to work in on the Otttawa defence...

Taylor made it 11 to 1 on an end to end run and a pretty shot. Taylor immediately after the face repeated the run and Phillips scored from the rebound of Taylor's shot.

Taylor brought the crowd to their feet by stealing the disc from Hooper at the Ottawa end and going through the whole Wanderer team for Ottawa's sixth goal. Taylor went in and out through Glass and Ross and taking his time picked out the open corner of the net.

Notoriety At the Position

So by the time the Patrick's lured him to Vancouver Taylor was widely regarded as the best player or among the very best in Canada (along with Lalonde). And that fame came from him playing CP.

With the Patrick Brothers, Frank seems to have played Point and Lester Rover in Renfrew

30 Dec 1909
The Stanley cup is the ambition of millionaire owners of the Renfrew club and as Taylor's jump has left a bad hole in the Ottawa team it would not be all all surprising to see the famous trophy come to Renfrew in the spring.Taylor is recognized by hockey experts as the greatest player in the game.

14 Oct 1912

Art Ross, Didier Pitre and "Cyclone" Taylor, three of the the greatest players in Canadian hockey seem may be seen in the linup of the coast teams this season

11 Dec 1912

Fred Taylor, the sensation of the NHA for many years, stood head and shoulders above every other player.

The Globe and Mail 11 June 1979

Lester Patrick at that time manager of the New York Rangers said Taylor was the best hockey player he'd ever seen.
He despised rough play, saying he was paid to play hockey and not sit in the penalty box, Taylor said he didn't think he averaged more than four penalties a season.
He became the highest paid player of his day and made all-star each season. A rushing defenceman Taylor played on Stanley Cup championships and twice led the playoffs in scoring.

Your own coach Tommy Gorman lists him as the greatest utility player as of 1928.

Tommy Gorman lists his all-time team (in December of 1928):

Roy Worters, goalie
Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn, defense
Frank McGee, center
Tom Phillips and Scotty Davidson, wings
Cyclone Fred Taylor, utility, greatest player ever.

Scoring Exploits at Each Position

He was among the highest-scoring D every season he played CP and among the top 10 on 2 occasions. (note his position is correct in my data as he consistently played CP, other occasional P/CP get ignored since they jump between several positions)

League	Season	Team	Position	GP	G	A	Points	PIM
IHL	1906-1907	Portage Lake-Houghton	R/CP/P	23	18	7	25	31
ECAHA	1907-1908	Ottawa Hockey Club	Cover	10	9	3	12	40
ECHA	1908-1909	Ottawa Hockey Club	Cover	11	9	4	13	26
NHA	1909-1910	Renfrew Creamery Kings	Cover	12	9	0	9	14
NHA	1910-1911	Renfrew Creamery Kings	Cover	16	12	9	21	21
PCHA	1912-1913	Vancouver Millionaires	Rover	14	10	8	18	5
PCHA	1913-1914	Vancouver Millionaires	Center	16	24	15	39	18
PCHA	1914-1915	Vancouver Millionaires	Rover	16	24	21	45	9
PCHA	1915-1916	Vancouver Millionaires	Rover	18	22	13	35	9
PCHA	1916-1917	Vancouver Millionaires	Rover	11	14	15	29	12
PCHA	1917-1918	Vancouver Millionaires	Center	18	32	11	43	0
PCHA	1918-1919	Vancouver Millionaires	Center	20	23	13	36	12
PCHA	1919-1920	Vancouver Millionaires	Center	10	6	6	12	0

Offensive Resume at Cover-Point
1907-08 ECAHA - He's first in D scoring. Moose Johnson is a LW for the wanderers. 1st among D, 17th overall
1908-09 ECHA - He's tied Smail in D scoring. 1st among D, 9th overall
1909-10 NHA - I can't see any confirmed D ahead of him. 2nd in D scoring, 24th overall. Bobby Rowe played RW for Renfrew and Lester was the rover, Pitre played CP
1910-11 NHA - I can't see anyone who was D this season ahead of him. 1st/2nd in D scoring and 9th overall. Pitre played Rover and CP this season

Among D
1, 1, 2, 1

League-Wide
9, 10, 17, 24

Offensive Resume at Rover
1912-13 - 6th league wide
1914-15 - 1st in the league over teammate in less GP
1915-16 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 14 points back
1916-17 - Misses over half the season, still finishes 9th in scoring. His PPG in line with his career would have him league in scoring again

League-Wide
1, 1, 6, 9* (appendicitis almost killed him, modern medicine is a god send)

Offensive Resume at Center
1913 14 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 19 points back
1917-18 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 25 points
1918-19 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 10 points
1919-20 - 11th league wide

League-Wide
1, 1, 1


TLDR: Taylor became famous and praised while playing CP. This praise and hype followed him out west with Vancouver where he dominated the scoring tables at rover and C. There is no discernable reason to discredit him at D in an ATD setting. Rover as a position seems to have had responsibilities that got merged into C and D anyway. He's an offensive defenseman who wasn't Paul Coffey defensively. His resume has more meat on the bone at this position than almost any of the C/Ws who get stashed on the wing because center is so deep.

 

[The Macho King]

Are they?

Orr is clearly better than Lidstrom
Gerard is better than Stewart
Taylor v Seibert is really interesting and probably slightly tipped towards you just based on longevity at the position
Vasiliev is clearly better than Reardon

You do have an advantage on your bottom pairing because Lester is a luxury, but he's a luxury depth piece playing maybe 12 minutes a night?

There is no way our D are a wash it's a decisive advantage for us.

I'll concede on goaltending being a wash, especially in the playoffs

I acknowledged the talent advantage on your side - you spent your high picks on defenseman* so of course you're going to have the talent advantage. But I think I built - on the whole - better pairings with chemistry and defined roles.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I acknowledged the talent advantage on your side - you spent your high picks on defenseman* so of course you're going to have the talent advantage. But I think I built - on the whole - better pairings with chemistry and defined roles.

I very much disagree with that premise.

Vasiliev and Gerard are excellent defensively focused partners who will cover for Orr and Taylor's rushing.

Your pairs have chemistry and defined roles, but so do ours.

We have the superior talent and a good enough fit that the sheer talent advantage makes this a strong advantage for us.

 

[The Macho King]

Offensive Resume at Cover-Point
1907-08 ECAHA - He's first in D scoring. Moose Johnson is a LW for the wanderers. 1st among D, 17th overall
1908-09 ECHA - He's tied Smail in D scoring. 1st among D, 9th overall
1909-10 NHA - I can't see any confirmed D ahead of him. 2nd in D scoring, 24th overall. Bobby Rowe played RW for Renfrew and Lester was the rover, Pitre played CP
1910-11 NHA - I can't see anyone who was D this season ahead of him. 1st/2nd in D scoring and 9th overall. Pitre played Rover and CP this season

Among D
1, 1, 2, 1

League-Wide
9, 10, 17, 24

Offensive Resume at Rover
1912-13 - 6th league wide
1914-15 - 1st in the league over teammate in less GP
1915-16 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 14 points back
1916-17 - Misses over half the season, still finishes 9th in scoring. His PPG in line with his career would have him league in scoring again

League-Wide
1, 1, 6, 9* (appendicitis almost killed him, modern medicine is a god send)

Offensive Resume at Center
1913 14 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 19 points back
1917-18 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 25 points
1918-19 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 10 points
1919-20 - 11th league wide

League-Wide
1, 1, 1


TLDR: Taylor became famous and praised while playing CP. This praise and hype followed him out west with Vancouver where he dominated the scoring tables at rover and C. There is no discernable reason to discredit him at D in an ATD setting. Rover as a position seems to have had responsibilities that got merged into C and D anyway. He's an offensive defenseman who wasn't Paul Coffey defensively.

So the long and short of this is his offense as a rover seems more in line with his production as a C rather than as a CP. As him producing significant offense at CP - of course, he's the most talented player of his generation. You put Gretzky as D and you're going to find that he scores more than every other D in the league as well - it doesn't mean you're getting the most out of him as a player.

If anything, I think this shows that his value is truly at C. Saying that rover is a combo CP/C is a gross simplification. League-wide he goes from a top ~15ish production to top of the league production, which then follows when he moves to C.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So the long and short of this is his offense as a rover seems more in line with his production as a C rather than as a CP. As him producing significant offense at CP - of course, he's the most talented player of his generation. You put Gretzky as D and you're going to find that he scores more than every other D in the league as well - it doesn't mean you're getting the most out of him as a player.

If anything, I think this shows that his value is truly at C. Saying that rover is a combo CP/C is a gross simplification. League-wide he goes from a top ~15ish production to top of the league production, which then follows when he moves to C.

1) This is a disingenuous argument because no other player being played at their "secondary" position receives this level of scrutiny. I'm not saying if he played CP in the PCHA he would've obliterated the scoring table, but in the ECHA he was able to keep pace with Frank Patrick who himself almost won a PCHA scoring title.

2) I feel like you're now overly simplifying things to paint him as miscast in his role. His play at CP is where his notoriety came from before he was drawn west. He goes from top 15ish production from a "defensive" position in a league that didn't track assists to a league leader out west.

 

[The Macho King]

1) This is a disingenuous argument because no other player being played at their "secondary" position receives this level of scrutiny. I'm not saying if he played CP in the PCHA he would've obliterated the scoring table, but in the ECHA he was able to keep pace with Frank Patrick who himself almost won a PCHA scoring title.

2) I feel like you're now overly simplifying things to paint him as miscast in his role. His play at CP is where his notoriety came from before he was drawn west. He goes from top 15ish production from a "defensive" position in a league that didn't track assists to a league leader out west.

Who is the highest drafted player that's used multi-positionally? Dit Clapper is never played at RW. Mark Messier is rarely if ever played at LW. If they were, they would not get full credit (if any) for their time at other positions.

And that's ultimately what I'm coming down to. Taylor I don't think is miscast as a #3 Dman. He has the bona fides for it. But what we're not getting is "best offensive player in the league Cyclone Taylor" when he's at that position. We're getting someone that seems more comparable to a Hod Stuart than a Earl Seibert.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I just don't think McDavid and Kucherov have enough of a resume to be considered top end forwards, and are inferior (in this setting) to Bentley and Cournoyer

Man I can't even with this

Cournoyer was an excellent playoff performer with a weaker RS resume

Kucherov kills him in "resume", just absolutely murders him

Questioning McDavid vs Bentley makes more sense, but even then offensively McDavid is definitely a cut above with the weaker playoff resume.

Someone can correct me, but it took WWII for Max Benetly to win an Art Ross and a Hart Trophy, so I have a pretty hard time looking at their resumes side by side and suggesting that McDavid's is lacking in anything but playoff success. And that is a factor somewhat organizationally bound and not player

 

[ResilientBeast]

And that's ultimately what I'm coming down to. Taylor I don't think is miscast as a #3 Dman. He has the bona fides for it. But what we're not getting is "best offensive player in the league Cyclone Taylor" when he's at that position. We're getting someone that seems more comparable to a Hod Stuart than a Earl Seibert.

I think I disagree with this entire premise again lol because you're keying in so heavily on "offense"

Taylor was the best player in the league while at CP, not just offense.

His all-around game is better fleshed out playing a position where he can be on the ice for 20-25 minutes a game, and be able to use his skating and playmaking to generate offense (traits he maintained out west).

 

[The Macho King]

Man I can't even with this

Cournoyer was an excellent playoff performer with a weaker RS resume

Kucherov kills him in "resume", just absolutely murders him

Questioning McDavid vs Bentley makes more sense, but even then offensively McDavid is definitely a cut above with the weaker playoff resume.

Someone can correct me, but it took WWII for Max Benetly to win an Art Ross and a Hart Trophy, so I have a pretty hard time looking at their resumes side by side and suggesting that McDavid's is lacking in anything but playoff success. And that is a factor somewhat organizationally bound and not player

Bentley won the Hart in the post-war year. Bentley served in the War and missed three peak seasons to it (he was third in scoring in the year before he went to the war, and won the next two Art Ross trophies after it).

Obviously peak versus peak Kucherov and McDavid are top shelf. If we were only judging them by their peak, they'd probably both be top 75 picks. They're not. For *modern players* whose careers often last 15+ years, these guys are at what - 7? Are we giving them full credit or how are they being discounted for their short careers? Do we use VsX7 or VsX10 (don't really love either metric, but you get the point).

 

[The Macho King]

His all-around game is better fleshed out playing a position where he can be on the ice for 20-25 minutes a game, and be able to use his skating and playmaking to generate offense (traits he maintained out west).

So as a #1 Center?

 

[ResilientBeast]

So as a #1 Center?

Do you think this is some gotcha?

As I already said, his all around game is mostly fleshed out from his time in Ottawa and Renfrew. Where he was an excellent rushing defensman who wasn't Paul Coffey defensively.

 

[The Macho King]

Do you think this is some gotcha?

As I already said, his all around game is mostly fleshed out from his time in Ottawa and Renfrew. Where he was an excellent rushing defensman who wasn't Paul Coffey defensively.

No - I thought it was a joke.

And "not being Paul Coffey" defensively is a pretty low bar to clear. Are we talking an Erik Karlsson-level defenseman?

 

[rmartin65]

Bentley won the Hart in the post-war year. Bentley served in the War and missed three peak seasons to it (he was third in scoring in the year before he went to the war, and won the next two Art Ross trophies after it).

Wasn't there some... funny business... with assists being given in Chicago around this time frame? I apologize and retract this statement if it is incorrect, but I feel like I remember some chatter about this.

Obviously peak versus peak Kucherov and McDavid are top shelf. If we were only judging them by their peak, they'd probably both be top 75 picks. They're not. For *modern players* whose careers often last 15+ years, these guys are at what - 7? Are we giving them full credit or how are they being discounted for their short careers? Do we use VsX7 or VsX10 (don't really love either metric, but you get the point).

7 years has traditionally been the mark of an acceptable career length for the ATD.

In his 7 years, McDavid has 3 Art Ross trophies, 2 Harts, and 3 AS-1 nods. Bentley in a full career couldn't achieve those accolades. The comparison requires no projection- McDavid has been a more accomplished player in 7 (6, actually, since we are not projecting this season) seasons than Bentley was in 12.

Kucherov, similarly, has been more awarded than Cournoyer. 2 AS-1 and 2 AS-2 trumps 4 AS-2 in my books- and now add in that Kucherov has an Art Ross, a Hart, and generally higher points finishes? Kucherov wins this one in a landslide.

Career length is important (to me) when comparing two players with similar peaks. Or if a player has a 1 or 2 year peak, while another may not have peaked as high, but did it for considerably longer. At this point, I think we can safely say that McDavid and Kucherov have not had flash-in-the-pan peaks- they have been the best/among the best at their positions for over 5 years now. In my opinion, that tops anything that Bentley or Cournoyer did.

Otherwise we have all been underrating Gartner, Marleau, Andreychuk, etc.