Jim Coleman Conference - Round 1 - New Jersey Swamp Devils (1) vs Hull Olympiques (8)

[ImporterExporter]

Best of 7 format


NJ Swamp Devils (1 Seed)

Coach: Dick Irvin

Sweeney Schriner - Joe Sakic (A) - Bill Cook
Sid Abel (C) <-> Joe Malone - Helmuts Balderis
Johnny Gottselig - Jonathan Toews - Marian Hossa
Rusty Crawford - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Rene Robert
Bernie Morris, Bruce Stuart

Ching Johnson - Doug Harvey (A)
Babe Siebert - Bill Gadsby
Mark Giordano - Red Dutton
Flash Hollett

Johnny Bower
Tony Esposito

One goal down: Schriner - Sakic - Cook - Harvey - Gadsby. Extra skater: Malone

PP1: Sweeney Schriner - Joe Malone - Bill Cook - Joe Sakic - Doug Harvey
PP2: Sid Abel - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Helmuts Balderis - Rene Robert - Bill Gadsby

PK1: Jonathan Toews - Johnny Gottselig - Ching Johnson - Doug Harvey
PK2: Vyacheslav Starshinov - Marian Hossa - Babe Siebert - Red Dutton
PK spares: Rusty Crawford, Bill Gadsby


VS:


HULL OLYMPIQUES (8 Seed)

Coach: Scotty Bowman
Captain: Guy Carbonneau
Assistant: Larry Robinson
Assistant: Duncan Keith

#15 Bert Olmstead - #10 Syl Apps - #5 Bernard Geoffrion
#14 Brendan Shanahan - #12 Adam Oates - #16 Brett Hull
#26 Brian Propp - #27 Jeremy Roenick - #8 Punch Broadbent
#11 Marty Pavelich - #21 Guy Carbonneau - #18 Dany Gare
#

#19 Larry Robinson - #56 Sergei Zubov
#2 Duncan Keith - #7 Vitali Davydov
#3 Vladimir Lutchenko - #88 Brent Burns
#5 Ott Heller

#33 Patrick Roy
#1 Jiri Holecek

Powerplay #1
#14 Brendan Shanahan - #12 Adam Oates - #16 Brett Hull
#5 Bernard Geoffrion - #56 Sergei Zubov

Powerplay #2
#15 Bert Olmstead - #10 Syl Apps - #9 Artemi Panarin
#88 Brent Burns - #4 Lennart Svedberg

Penalty Kill #1
#21 - Guy Carbonneau - #11 Marty Pavelich
#19 Larry Robinson - #2 Duncan Keith

Penalty Kill #2
#10 Syl Apps - #26 Brian Propp
#3 Vladimir Lutchenko - #56 Sergei Zubov

Click to read more...

 

[Sturminator]

@TheDevilMadeMe what does <-> mean between Abel and Malone? Have you not made up your mind, or do you plan to move them between positions depending on the matchup?

 

[VanIslander]

The best 2nd line HANDS DOWN in the draft and the best playoff goalie.

With the greatest coach...

Can that be overcome? That's the question.

 

[nabby12]

The best 2nd line HANDS DOWN in the draft and the best playoff goalie.

With the greatest coach...

Can that be overcome? That's the question.

Yes I noticed that too. The Olympiques are a very dangerous 8 seed...

This series has upset written all over it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The best 2nd line HANDS DOWN in the draft and the best playoff goalie.

With the greatest coach...

Can that be overcome? That's the question.

Thanks for commenting.

You must really love real life chemistry, because it's hard to be "hands down" the best 2nd line when you have probably the worst second line center in the draft... but yes, the Oates-Hull thing is certainly sexy.

From a talent perspective, I prefer my second line... (Malone = Hull, Abel > Oates, if Shanahan is better than Balderis at all, it's not by much, and I don't think it's offensively AT ALL).

But yes, Oates-Hull is definitely sexy, and Shanahan is definitely the type of compliment they need.

_________________

FWIW, an old school Montreal Gazette ranked the "Top 10 clutch men" as follows:

1. Rocket Richard
2. Arnold Palmer
3. Johnny Unitas
4. Bernie Faloney
5. Yogi Berra
6. Johnny Bower
7. Terry Sawchuk
8. Bart Starr
9. Gump Worsley
10. Jean Beliveau

It's in Dreakmur's Bower profile; unfortunately the year no longer shows up after the data migration.

He's no Roy, but Bower was the man in the playoffs. Ranked #2 behind Jacques Plante in playoff goals above replacement*

*GAR is kind of like save percentage times number of games, it's to accumulated points what save percentage itself is to points-per-game. It's a little more complicated than that, but that' the basic gist.

I'll try to say a few more things about this series tomorrow.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

@TheDevilMadeMe what does <-> mean between Abel and Malone? Have you not made up your mind, or do you plan to move them between positions depending on the matchup?

It's to show that either could play center and either could take a faceoff depending on the situation...

But honestly, it was just to placate MXD, who thought Abel played closer to a traditional center than Malone...

In reality, Malone is the C, based on real life usage, as he barely played LW, while Abel did. Neither was really a traditional center - Malone a goal scorer first, Abel kind of a grinder (called a "driver not a playmaker" by Dick Irvin).

So yeah, I should probably just not bother with the <-> which was blatant pandering to a voter who hasn't played ATD is years... heh

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What's up with the 2 players on PP2 for Hull who don't appear in the main lineup?

 

[The Macho King]

What's Malone's defense like? For some reason in my head I have him like a step about Cowley (which would make that second line problematic from a defensive standpoint with Abel being the only player who cares about defense at all), but I'm not going to go off of that alone.

Also I gotta say - I'm less than convinced with the Bower puffery. His playoffs are baked into his draft position, so trying to sell him as more than that *because* of his playoffs feels like trying to paper over a very real team flaw.

Edit: Looks like there isn't much discussion of his defensive play one way or the other in his bios, so putting him at a Cowley-tier is probably unfair.

 

[Sturminator]

It's to show that either could play center and either could take a faceoff depending on the situation...

But honestly, it was just to placate MXD, who thought Abel played closer to a traditional center than Malone...

In reality, Malone is the C, based on real life usage, as he barely played LW, while Abel did. Neither was really a traditional center - Malone a goal scorer first, Abel kind of a grinder (called a "driver not a playmaker" by Dick Irvin).

So yeah, I should probably just not bother with the <-> which was blatant pandering to a voter who hasn't played ATD is years... heh

That's weird....I think I actually agree with MXD here, mainly due to my skepticism about slow-footed wingers in checking roles. Wings are so often caught deep when the puck is turned over that they need recovery speed to get back into the play, whereas centers can more easily overcome skating limitations through positional play. The list of slow wings who were considered high-end checkers is very short.

 

[Sturminator]

What's Malone's defense like? For some reason in my head I have him like a step about Cowley (which would make that second line problematic from a defensive standpoint with Abel being the only player who cares about defense at all), but I'm not going to go off of that alone.

Malone seems to have been at least a decent checker...certainly not a Cowley-like black hole. The praise for his checking is mostly from individual game reports, though there is that one holistic quote from the 30s calling him a "potent defensive unit", and there doesn't seem to be any outright criticism of this aspect of his game. In terms of defense, I think he's more on the level of Joe Thornton than Bill Cowley.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@overpass uncovered that

Malone seems to have been at least a decent checker...certainly not a Cowley-like black hole. The praise for his checking is mostly from individual game reports, though there is that one holistic quote from the 30s calling him a "potent defensive unit", and there doesn't seem to be any outright criticism of this aspect of his game. In terms of defense, I think he's more on the level of Joe Thornton than Bill Cowley.

Malone's nickname "Phantom" was given as a description of his defensive play (see overpass' bio for the full story). It's from an individual game report, but the fact that the name stuck has to give it more weight than that.

 

[The Macho King]

@overpass uncovered that

Malone's nickname "Phantom" was given as a description of his defensive play (see overpass' bio for the full story). It's from an individual game report, but the fact that the name stuck has to give it more weight than that.

Let's not underrate the possibility that it just sounded cool.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Let's not underrate the possibility that it just sounded cool.

Interesting thought. Are there any examples of nicknames that we know were not accurate descriptions of a player?

 

[The Macho King]

Interesting thought. Are there any examples of nicknames that we know were not accurate descriptions of a player?

George's Vezina was not an actual cucumber.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Thanks for commenting.

You must really love real life chemistry, because it's hard to be "hands down" the best 2nd line when you have probably the worst second line center in the draft... but yes, the Oates-Hull thing is certainly sexy.

From a talent perspective, I prefer my second line... (Malone = Hull, Abel > Oates, if Shanahan is better than Balderis at all, it's not by much, and I don't think it's offensively AT ALL).

But yes, Oates-Hull is definitely sexy, and Shanahan is definitely the type of compliment they need.

_________________

FWIW, an old school Montreal Gazette ranked the "Top 10 clutch men" as follows:

1. Rocket Richard
2. Arnold Palmer
3. Johnny Unitas
4. Bernie Faloney
5. Yogi Berra
6. Johnny Bower
7. Terry Sawchuk
8. Bart Starr
9. Gump Worsley
10. Jean Beliveau

It's in Dreakmur's Bower profile; unfortunately the year no longer shows up after the data migration.

He's no Roy, but Bower was the man in the playoffs. Ranked #2 behind Jacques Plante in playoff goals above replacement*

*GAR is kind of like save percentage times number of games, it's to accumulated points what save percentage itself is to points-per-game. It's a little more complicated than that, but that' the basic gist.

I'll try to say a few more things about this series tomorrow.

I think that actually came from an earlier bio of mine

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

 

[sr edler]

Are there any examples of nicknames that we know were not accurate descriptions of a player?

There was a guy in the earlier stages of the OHA, perhaps on Peterborough or some team, who had a nickname alluding to him being fast, like "Speed" or something, but it was ironic as in reality he was slow and skating on molasses. I don't remember his name off the top of my head though. But yeah, I think sometimes people were given nicknames that didn't make much sense unless you were aware of the proper context.

On another note, I'm not sure I would trust Joe Malone being nicknamed Phantom because of his strong back-checking based off of one match report. I've read other accounts claiming it was partly because of his dark eyes and partly because of his ability to find space on the ice and show up for scoring chances, Brett Hull type of style. Who knows though, perhaps it was a combination of a bit of everything.

Reading old newspaper accounts though, one must take into consideration that sometimes people exaggerated stuff, or presented their own opinions, or brought forward inaccurate info, or blew things a bit out of proportion, much like newspapers do today.

Center forwards in the 1910s (and earlier) weren't really supposed to be strong two-way players anyways, they were supposed to be offensive dynamos, a bit like the modern day high-scoring winger. If Brett Hull was a 1910s player he would most likely have been a center, and if Dick Irvin was a modern day player he would most likely have been a winger. This changed partly when the NHA scratched the rover, but Quebec still had Jack Marks and also Rusty Crawford who I think as wingers took far more defensive responsibilities than Joe Malone.

I think this is why Frank Nighbor was regarded as such an era defining player, because he was one of the first centers who had the ability to combine strong defense with being an offensive dynamo, at the highest level, his 1916–17 season looking like an early era model for 1993–94 Sergei Fedorov. Nighbor's buddy from Port Arthur for instance, Jack Walker, who taught him various defensive checking techniques while teammates in northwestern Ontario, never translated from rover to center, but from rover to winger (back and forth), because he didn't have the same type of offensive high-end talents.

All this being said, doesn't necessarily mean Malone was bad defensively.

 

[tinyzombies]

There was a guy in the earlier stages of the OHA, perhaps on Peterborough or some team, who had a nickname alluding to him being fast, like "Speed" or something, but it was ironic as in reality he was slow and skating on molasses. I don't remember his name off the top of my head though. But yeah, I think sometimes people were given nicknames that didn't make much sense unless you were aware of the proper context.

On another note, I'm not sure I would trust Joe Malone being nicknamed Phantom because of his strong back-checking based off of one match report. I've read other accounts claiming it was partly because of his dark eyes and partly because of his ability to find space on the ice and show up for scoring chances, Brett Hull type of style. Who knows though, perhaps it was a combination of a bit of everything.

Reading old newspaper accounts though, one must take into consideration that sometimes people exaggerated stuff, or presented their own opinions, or brought forward inaccurate info, or blew things a bit out of proportion, much like newspapers do today.

Center forwards in the 1910s (and earlier) weren't really supposed to be strong two-way players anyways, they were supposed to be offensive dynamos, a bit like the modern day high-scoring winger. If Brett Hull was a 1910s player he would most likely have been a center, and if Dick Irvin was a modern day player he would most likely have been a winger. This changed partly when the NHA scratched the rover, but Quebec still had Jack Marks and also Rusty Crawford who I think as wingers took far more defensive responsibilities than Joe Malone.

I think this is why Frank Nighbor was regarded as such an era defining player, because he was one of the first centers who had the ability to combine strong defense with being an offensive dynamo, at the highest level, his 1916–17 season looking like an early era model for 1993–94 Sergei Fedorov. Nighbor's buddy from Port Arthur for instance, Jack Walker, who taught him various defensive checking techniques while teammates in northwestern Ontario, never translated from rover to center, but from rover to winger (back and forth), because he didn't have the same type of offensive high-end talents.

All this being said, doesn't necessarily mean Malone was bad defensively.

Harry The Halibut Spencer from challenge cup days because both his eyes were on either side of his head

 

[Sturminator]

Bun Cook was not actually a baked good.

 

[Sturminator]

Dit Clapper was not actually a porn star.

 

[Sturminator]

Newsy Lalonde was not actually a journalist.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Teemu Selanne was not actually a photographer

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think that overpass's Malone profile (that I linked to) did a great job of fleshing out Malone as a decent backchecker. Probably similar to Oates or Roenick in that he was a scorer first, but his defense was "pretty good for a scorer." Better than Apps, but no Sakic and certainly no Toews, to say nothing of Carbs