Jim Coleman Conference 2nd round - New Jersey Swamp Devils vs. Mystery Alaskans

Sturminator

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Feb 27, 2002
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New Jersey Swamp Devils

chad_albers_swampcreatureposter1.jpg


Head Coach: Glen Sather
Assistant Coach: Roger Neilson

Sid Abel(A) - Phil Esposito - George Armstrong(C)
Ilya Kovalchuk - Milan Novy - Daniel Alfredsson(A)
Tony Leswick - Bill Thoms - Jerry Toppazzini
Ed Sandford- Ken Mosdell - Rejean Houle
Clint Smith

Paul Coffey - Bill White
Lloyd Cook - Tom Johnson
Gary Bergman - Doug Young
Miroslav Dvorak - Bob Dailey

Frank Brimsek
Jiri Kralik

PP
Sid Abel - Phil Esposito - Daniel Alfredsson
Ilya Kovalchuk - Paul Coffey

Milan Novy - Bill Thoms - George Armstrong
Lloyd Cook - Tom Johnson

PK
Ken Mosdell - Jerry Toppazzini
Tom Johnson - Bill White

Bill Thoms - Tony Leswick
Gary Bergman - Doug Young

Sid Abel - Daniel Alfredsson will take some shifts to press for SHGs

vs.

Mystery Alaskans



Anatoli Tarasov
Arkady Chernyshev

Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jack Walker
George Hay - Pierre Turgeon - Jarome Iginla "C"
Ray Getliffe - Russell Bowie - Vic Stasiuk
Pavol Dmitra - Red Sullivan "A" - Billy Boucher

Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert "A"
Sergei Gonchar - Bob Goldham
Rod Seiling - Yuri Liapkin

Bill Durnan
Alec Connell


Spares: Saku Koivu, Ken Randall, Alexander Gusev


Power Play #1
Aurele Joliat - Howie Morenz - Jarome Iginla
Sergei Gonchar - Yuri Liapkin

Power Play #2
Russell Bowie - Pierre Turgeon - Vic Stasiuk
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Penalty Kill #1
Jack Walker - Red Sullivan
Hod Stuart - Earl Seibert

Penalty Kill #2
Howie Morenz - Aurele Joliat
Rod Seiling - Bob Goldham

Penalty Kill #3
Ray Getliffe - George Hay​
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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This should be a good one - IMO, this could be a semifinal matchup, but we can only take what the bracket gives us.

I'll be back with a possible lineup tweak tomorrow.
 

Dreakmur

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Good luck TDMM. Both of these teams are put together in non-traditional set-ups. You built a very unique team, and I look forward to a good discussion. Hopefully, the rest of my vacation doesn't get in the way of this one!
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Speed of NJ's bottom 6

With a couple of speed demons in Howie Morenz and Aurel Joliat on the other side, I think it could be important to establish that NJ's checkers have the speed to keep up with them. In particular, Tony Leswick, Bill Thoms, and Rejean Houle were known as among the fastest players of their eras.

Tony Leswick
Ultimate Hockey said:
He was a swift, strong skater who always hustled

Doug Vaughan said:
Probably the fastest skater on either club, Tough Tony never quits driving.

Bill Thoms
Calgary Daily Herald said:
Manger Paul Thompson of the Chicago Blackhawks is mighty happy with the way his first line of Bill Thoms, Doug Bentley, and Bill Mosienko are rounding into shape for the NHL wars.

When Minneapolis sports fans attend the Hawks intra-squad exhibition here next Wednesday, they will see "the fastest line in the National Hockey League," he said.

Rejean Houle
The Windsor Star said:
(Bobby) Hull and Rejean Houle, both outstanding skaters, were impressed by the wide ice surfaces (as Team Canada prepared for the WHA/USSR Summit Series)

Rejean Houle said:
I figured I could skate with Bobby, but he's a strong guy and I thought I might have trouble." But I tried to stay a couple of steps ahead of him all the time - I wasn't there to admire Bobby Hull, but to check him.

Bobby Hull said:
I never really noticed Houle before with the Canadiens. But he skates like the Devil and I guess the whole NHL will be seeing a lot more of him from now on.

Others

I haven't seen anything written about Toppazzini's speed, but as one of the leading short handed goal scorers of his era, he was probably pretty fast. He was also known as one of the great fore-checkers of his era, which again, suggests good speed.

Mosdell and Sandford were larger players, and probably not particularly fast. Mosdell was the top penalty killer of the Montreal Canadiens in the late 40s and early 50s, so he couldn't have been a slug though. Sandford is going to get limited minutes at even strength in this series - his policeman abilities won't really be needed in this series, so he'll be used as a typical 4th line energy player.

Mosdell will be used as a specialist who will take defensive zone draws for the different lines and then change out

With Mosdell's smarts and defensive record, I can't see what is probably pretty average skating being a problem. Still, with Bill Thoms' speed more important against Mystery than Mosdell's size, I think Thoms is probably the better choice to see more minutes at even strength and he'll stay on the third line. Mystery's 2nd and 3rd lines aren't particularly strong defensively, and it helps to have Thoms' offense out there to take advantage of this if they are matched up.

Mosdell will be used as a specialist who takes defensive zone draws at even strength - Sather has experience using his role players that way, to have Gretzky take as few defensive zone draws as possible.

I'll post a minutes chart soon to clarify this.
 
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Dreakmur

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Speed of NJ's bottom 6

With a couple of speed demons in Howie Morenz and Aurel Joliat on the other side, I think it could be important to establish that NJ's checkers have the speed to keep up with them. In particular, Tony Leswick, Bill Thoms, and Rejean Houle were known as among the fastest players of their eras.

It's one thing to keep up, and it's another to actually check.

That's pretty weak evidence for Bill Thoms' speed.

Mystery's 2nd and 3rd lines aren't particularly strong defensively, and it helps to have Thoms' offense out there to take advantage of this if they are matched up.

I wouldn't say they are great defensively, but it will take a lot more than Bill Thoms to expose them. Turgeon is weak, and Bowie is an unknown, but the wingers are quite strong defensively. Iginla is probably the weakest defensively, but even he's average - maybe a bit better.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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It's one thing to keep up, and it's another to actually check.

That's pretty weak evidence for Bill Thoms' speed.

You know as well as I do that finding precise information on the skill sets of second tier pre-WW2 players is difficult. I don't want Thoms chasing Morenz up and down the ice (very few players are adept at that role), but I think the evidence is strong enough as to his speed, where he won't get blown away. You aren't "the fastest line in hockey" if the center isn't at least above average.

Anyway, I'll post more on the usage of my centers when I post the minutes chart, hopefully later today.

I wouldn't say they are great defensively, but it will take a lot more than Bill Thoms to expose them. Turgeon is weak, and Bowie is an unknown, but the wingers are quite strong defensively. Iginla is probably the weakest defensively, but even he's average - maybe a bit better.

I think you're being generous to Bowie to call him an unknown defensively. Yes, his defense is technically unknown, in the way that the defense of all but the best defensive players of the era is unknown. Bowie was a very small player (even for his era), and he played in an era where everyone played the full 60 minutes, and often had specialized roles while on the ice. Blair Russell seems to have gotten into the HHOF mostly for playing the role of Bowie's defensive conscience on the ice.

I had Getliffe last time, and while I realize there are a few quotes about his two-way play, I was never really comfortable with the complete lack of contemporary recognition he received. Getliffe never received even a single vote for the post-season All Star teams, and he didn't play in either of the All Star Games that were held when he was a player. His contemporaries just didn't seem to think he was a player worth recognizing for whatever reason.

Likewise, we only have a record of Stasiuk receiving All-Star votes on on occasion - finishing 5th in AS LW votes in 1957-58. He also played in the 1960 All Star Game, but that was the year he finished 9th in scoring, so I don't think it says anything about his all-round game.

If this was modern times, it would be excusable, because the writers tend to go with offense over all-round play, but pre-expansion, the top two-way players got their share of All-Star votes:

Tony Leswick

Second Team All-Star (1950)
6 NHL All-Star Games (1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1952, 1954). First 4 on merit.

Ken Mosdell

First Team All-Star (1954)
Second Team All-Star (1955)

5 NHL All-Star Games (1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955). 4 of the 5 were based on merit.

Jerry Toppazzini

"3rd Team All Star" in 1957 behind Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard, ahead of healthy Andy Bathgate

3 NHL All-Star Games (1955, 1958, 1959), all on merit.

Ed Sandford

Second Team All-Star (1954)

5 NHL All-Star Games (1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955), all on merit.
 
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Dreakmur

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You know as well as I do that finding precise information on the skill sets of second tier pre-WW2 players is difficult. I don't want Thoms chasing Morenz up and down the ice (very few players are adept at that role), but I think the evidence is strong enough as to his speed, where he won't get blown away. You aren't "the fastest line in hockey" if the center isn't at least above average.

We have some precise information on Thoms' skill set. He was a good poke-checker and a good stickhander. If his speed wasn't mentioned, it likely wasn't as noticeable as the above two traits.

I think you're being generous to Bowie to call him an unknown defensively. Yes, his defense is technically unknown, in the way that the defense of all but the best defensive players of the era is unknown. Bowie was a very small player (even for his era), and he played in an era where everyone played the full 60 minutes, and often had specialized roles while on the ice. Blair Russell seems to have gotten into the HHOF mostly for playing the role of Bowie's defensive conscience on the ice.

As I said, his defensive play is unknown. I see no reason to believe he was above average for his era, which makes him below average here. That doesn't mean it isn't unknown.

I had Getliffe last time, and while I realize there are a few quotes about his two-way play, I was never really comfortable with the complete lack of contemporary recognition he received. Getliffe never received even a single vote for the post-season All Star teams, and he didn't play in either of the All Star Games that were held when he was a player. His contemporaries just didn't seem to think he was a player worth recognizing for whatever reason.

Getliffe was a secondary player in his era, which had only 2 votes per voter per position. I wouldn't really expect him to get many votes.

The fact that Getliffe split many of his seasons between multiple forward positions would partially explain his lack of votes, as it does for many other mutli-positional guys. Also, most of his full seasons at one position was at center, where it would be much harder to garner votes.

As for the all-star games, Getliffe was only around for the Morenz and Siebert Memorial games, and those were deliberately stacked with Montreal players, which Getliffe was not.

Likewise, we only have a record of Stasiuk receiving All-Star votes on on occasion - finishing 5th in AS LW votes in 1957-58. He also played in the 1960 All Star Game, but that was the year he finished 9th in scoring, so I don't think it says anything about his all-round game.

Stasuik's all-around game is full supported by the sources within his biography. He was top-notch physical player, and a good defensive player. Offensive was likely his weakest aspect.

If this was modern times, it would be excusable, because the writers tend to go with offense over all-round play, but pre-expansion, the top two-way players got their share of All-Star votes:

That's correct, the top two-way players did get their votes. That's why these guys rarely got votes. Sure each guy had a year or two where they got votes, but those often came following unusual offensive outputs.

As for the all-star games, you should look more closely at the lists. The NHL really went out of their way to make sure each team was represented fairly evenly. That means that guys who played on weaker teams had an easier time getting into those games than guys who played on strong teams. Getliffe played on very strong Boston and Montreal teams that were loaded with top-end stars, so he would have a very tough battle to represent his team. Guys like Leswick and Sandford would not have had nearly that amount of competition. Also, some years it was a lot easier to make those teams than others - 1951, as an example, 34 players were names from only 6 teams.... that's 5-6 guys from every team.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Swamp Devils Player Usage and Minutes Charts

Forwards

forward|ES|PP|PK|Total
Sid Abel|15| 4|1|20
Phil Esposito|17|5|0|22
George Armstrong|15|3|0|18
Ilya Kovalchuk|13|5|0|18
Milan Novy|11|3|0|14
Daniel Alfredsson|13|4|0|17
Tony Leswick|12|0|3|15
Bill Thoms|9|2|2|13
Jerry Toppazzini|10|0|4|14
Ed Sandford|6|0|0|6
Ken Mosdell|9|0|4|13
Rejean Houle|8|0|0|8
Total|138|26|14|178
  • Esposito's extra ice time will be mostly at the expense of Novy. Sather was known for giving Gretzky extra ice time with a variety of wingers, and I see him doing the same for Esposito. The more Espo sees Turgeon or Bowie, Gonchar or Liapkin, the happier I am.
  • Ken Mosdell is nominally on the 4th line, but he's actually getting the same ice time as Bill Thoms. Mosdell will get his extra time by being used heavily on the PK along with Jerry Toppazzini (taking the 1st and 3rd shifts) and by swapping in for other centers for defensive zone draws. Glen Sather was known for heavily managing his faceoffs (giving Gretzky as few defensive zone draws as possible), so this falls along the lines of something he would do.
  • Houle will also be used as something of a defensive specialist. Toppazzini's fore-checking game and Thoms' two-way speed and stick checking will be used in a larger variety of situations. Tony Leswick will be a constant on the checking line(s).

Defense

defense|ES|PP|PK|Total
Paul Coffey|19|6|0|25
Bill White|19|0|4|23
Lloyd Cook|15|2|<1|17
Tom Johnson|18|1|4|23
Gary Bergman|12|0|3|15
Doug Young|9|0|3|12
Total|92|9|14|114
  • Bergman-Johnson will sometimes be paired together, mostly in defensive situations
  • Only 9 of 46 min of ES ice time when neither the Coffey-White pairing nor Tom Johnson is on the ice
 
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Dreakmur

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[*]Esposito's extra ice time will be mostly at the expense of Novy. Sather was known for giving Gretzky extra ice time with a variety of wingers, and I see him doing the same for Esposito. The more Espo sees Turgeon or Bowie, Gonchar or Liapkin, the happier I am.

What makes Esposito, himself, a good match to play against those guys? Am I wrong in believing him to be a slow-skating offense-only forward who brings few intangibles? It his Esposito's regular linemates that really make life tough on the opponent, isn't that right?

Sure, when he's on the ice with his line of Abel and Armstong, they'll make life tough on my defensemen, but when he's on the ice with Kovalchuk and Alfredsson, that looks like a pretty easy time down low, followed by an outlet pass, followed by an odd-man rush.

Even with his regular linemates, that line is built in an all-out offense built. They are built to cycle, but if my defensemen are able to make quick outlet passes, which they definitely have the skill to do on a regular basis, we'll be able to create a lot of odd-man rushes back the other way. With both Abel and Armstrong being relied upon to do the fore-checking, they'll get caught down low quite often, which leaves Esposito as the high guy.


A significant factor in favour here is a top pairing that is build perfectly to handle a line built exactly like yours. Earl Seibert and Hod Stuart are both very big, strong, and tough for their era. If anybody can handle Abel and Armstrong down low, it's guys like that. If anybody can handle Esposito in the slot, it's them.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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What makes Esposito, himself, a good match to play against those guys? Am I wrong in believing him to be a slow-skating offense-only forward who brings few intangibles? It his Esposito's regular linemates that really make life tough on the opponent, isn't that right?

Esposito was slow, not particularly good defensively, and he was at his best when his linemates were the guys who went to the corners, but he wasn't exactly offense-only. In particular, he was excellent at faceoffs and was great at grinding in front of the goal (though I guess you can argue that the later is basically an offensive skill, it's still a form of "toughness")

It's easiest if I quote the section on Esposito from the "player's intangibles" thread on HOH:

PHIL ESPOSITO

Best on faceoffs | 3rd | 1974
Best on faceoffs | 3rd | 1981
Best shot | 3rd | 1971
Best shot | T-1st | 1974
Best stickhandler | 1st | 1971
Most dangerous near goal | 1st | 1971
Most dangerous near goal | 1st | 1974
Most dangerous near goal | 2nd | 1976
Smartest player | 2nd | 1971
Smartest player | 4th | 1974

Esposito is sometimes called a "power forward" by people who have a loose definition of the word. His power was basically the ability to win the faceoff and power his way to the front of the net, where he'd score or set up a linemate.

The Soviets in particular had problems with him:

Edmonton Journal said:
The Soviets were horrible on faceoffs, with Phil Esposito often barging towards the net on offensive zone draws and getting a good scoring chance that way. The CCCP had a heck of a time figuring out how to stop Espo on that one.

Quotes from Phil Esposito was the Mario Lemieux of '72. Bruins ace was a scoring machine for Team Canada"]

I see "Big Phil" physically overpowering someone like Turgeon or Bowie if they are put in a situation where they have to check him.

Dreakmur said:
Sure, when he's on the ice with his line of Abel and Armstong, they'll make life tough on my defensemen, but when he's on the ice with Kovalchuk and Alfredsson, that looks like a pretty easy time down low, followed by an outlet pass, followed by an odd-man rush.

Phil Esposito was known for taking very long shifts in reality, often cycling through more than one set of wingers. Part of that was lack of disciplined coaching (I'm not a fan of Boston's coaching staff in the 70s in case you can't tell), but I think it shows that he can certainly handle the occasional long shift or double shift here.

From the same article:

Edmonton Journal said:
Phil Esposito’s play reminds me of Mario Lemieux’s play in 1987. Espo was known to be a guy who parked in the slot, allowing his teammates to do the dirty work in the corners so he could pound in goals off their passes. In this series, with Bobby Orr sidelined, Esposito often carried the puck from end-to-end, warding off Soviet attackers to set up dangerous shots and passes. He moved slow, seemingly, but fast and tricky enough that the CCCP defenders couldn’t get the puck off him with any kind of ease. Just a brilliant performance by Espo, who led the Canadian team in contributions to chances with 38 in the four games, 9.5 per game.

From another article by the same author discussing the MVP of the full Summit Series:

Edmonton Journal said:
With his stickhandling, shooting, grinding and unbelievably long shifts, Esposito put up more scoring chances than any other player in the series.

Phil Esposito is widely considered the best player from either team in the 1972 Summit Series, and his regular linemates for the last 4 games were J.P. Parise and Yvon Cournoyer - Cashman only played 2 games before being benched due to bad penalties. So I think an occasional shift with Alfredsson and Kovalchuk will be fine. Edit: Esposito centered Bobby Hull and Marcel Dionne (who was playing RW) in the 1976 Canada Cup, but he was a bit past his prime by then and wasn't as dominant.

It's not just Alfredsson and Kovalchuk - I see Esposito being given some time with all the lower lines (particularly for offensive zone draws) to throw your team off and get favorable matchups. This is consistent with how Sather used Gretzky.

Dreakmur said:
Even with his regular linemates, that line is built in an all-out offense built. They are built to cycle, but if my defensemen are able to make quick outlet passes, which they definitely have the skill to do on a regular basis, we'll be able to create a lot of odd-man rushes back the other way. With both Abel and Armstrong being relied upon to do the fore-checking, they'll get caught down low quite often, which leaves Esposito as the high guy.

I don't think my top line is entirely all-out offense. George Armstrong was a very good defensive player, with only his poor skating keeping him from being a great one. You're right that there will be an occasional odd-man rush going the other way - that's why I really like Bill White on the top unit - he is that rare combination of very long reach, good skating, and top notch defensive smarts that is the ideal skill set against odd man rushes. And the rushes go both ways - Paul Coffey has his faults, but he is arguably the single greatest transition player of all-time (Bobby Orr is obviously the other one in that conversation).

Dreakmur said:
A significant factor in favour here is a top pairing that is build perfectly to handle a line built exactly like yours. Earl Seibert and Hod Stuart are both very big, strong, and tough for their era. If anybody can handle Abel and Armstrong down low, it's guys like that. If anybody can handle Esposito in the slot, it's them.

You're right that Seibert and Stuart are a good matchup against Esposito for you - I don't think anybody can "handle" Esposito in the slot, but those two are as good as any (short of Larry Robinson - Rod Langway) to keep up with him there. The thing is, you are heavily dependent on getting the matchups you want, as I see Esposito and friends absolutely dominating Gonchar or Liapkin down low. I get why you drafted both Gonchar and Liapkin - for how good those two are on the PP, you got them at great value. But at even strength, they have their issues, and they have those issues without having nearly the upside of a Paul Coffey.

I absolutely think that Sergei Gonchar is good enough to deserve second pairing minutes here, but if you draft him, you want to use him in as offensive a role as possible, meaning you want a "safe" bottom pairing. But Yuri Liapkin is another guy you don't really want to give a big defensive role to, and he's on your bottom pairing.
 
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Dreakmur

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Esposito was slow, not particularly good defensively, and he was at his best when his linemates were the guys who went to the corners, but he wasn't exactly offense-only. In particular, he was excellent at faceoffs and was great at grinding in front of the goal (though I guess you can argue that the later is basically an offensive skill, it's still a form of "toughness")

It's easiest if I quote the section on Esposito from the "player's intangibles" thread on HOH:

PHIL ESPOSITO

Best on faceoffs | 3rd | 1974
Best on faceoffs | 3rd | 1981
Best shot | 3rd | 1971
Best shot | T-1st | 1974
Best stickhandler | 1st | 1971
Most dangerous near goal | 1st | 1971
Most dangerous near goal | 1st | 1974
Most dangerous near goal | 2nd | 1976
Smartest player | 2nd | 1971
Smartest player | 4th | 1974

Esposito is sometimes called a "power forward" by people who have a loose definition of the word. His power was basically the ability to win the faceoff and power his way to the front of the net, where he'd score or set up a linemate.

The Soviets in particular had problems with him:



Quotes from Phil Esposito was the Mario Lemieux of '72. Bruins ace was a scoring machine for Team Canada"]

Face-offs would be the "few intangibles" I was talking about.

I see "Big Phil" physically overpowering someone like Turgeon or Bowie if they are put in a situation where they have to check him.

First of all, if they actually went head to head, neither line would be "checking".

If they got into a one-on-one battle, Esposito would have a size and strength advantage, but how many battles would they actually have? They'd drop the puck for the face-off, and that's probably the last time they'd see each other.

Phil Esposito was known for taking very long shifts in reality, often cycling through more than one set of wingers. Part of that was lack of disciplined coaching (I'm not a fan of Boston's coaching staff in the 70s in case you can't tell), but I think it shows that he can certainly handle the occasional long shift or double shift here.

From the same article:

From another article by the same author discussing the MVP of the full Summit Series:

I didn't say Esposito couldn't play long shifts. I said he wouldn't be a good match with Kovalchuk and Alfredsson.

The reason he could take long shifts was because he was a lazy player, and he relied on his linemates to do all the dirty work. He needs linemates who will do that.

Phil Esposito is widely considered the best player from either team in the 1972 Summit Series, and his regular linemates for the last 4 games were J.P. Parise and Yvon Cournoyer - Cashman only played 2 games before being benched due to bad penalties. So I think an occasional shift with Alfredsson and Kovalchuk will be fine. Edit: Esposito centered Bobby Hull and Marcel Dionne (who was playing RW) in the 1976 Canada Cup, but he was a bit past his prime by then and wasn't as dominant.

It's not just Alfredsson and Kovalchuk - I see Esposito being given some time with all the lower lines (particularly for offensive zone draws) to throw your team off and get favorable matchups. This is consistent with how Sather used Gretzky.

I just based it off you minutes chart, and you comment that he'd be taking Novy's ice time.

I don't think my top line is entirely all-out offense. George Armstrong was a very good defensive player, with only his poor skating keeping him from being a great one. You're right that there will be an occasional odd-man rush going the other way - that's why I really like Bill White on the top unit - he is that rare combination of very long reach, good skating, and top notch defensive smarts that is the ideal skill set against odd man rushes. And the rushes go both ways - Paul Coffey has his faults, but he is arguably the single greatest transition player of all-time (Bobby Orr is obviously the other one in that conversation).

You didn't build it with all-out offensive guys, but it will be playing an all-out offensive style. With Esposito at center, you have to do that. Both Abel and Armstrong will spend all their offensive time behind the goal line and in the corners, while Esposito will be the high guy. If the puck turns over, your first back-checker is Esposito, which basically means you have no back-checker.

Armstrong is a great defensive player, but a lot of that is based of positioning to compensate for lack of speed. If he's coming from the corner, he'll never catch up. Abel has more speed, but he's still coming from too far behind the play. Moreover, they will be doing all the work in a grinding, demanding style, and if they are going to be doing all the back-checking too, they are going to wear down.

In order to keep Abel and Armstrong in good defensive position, you either have to send Esposito into the corner, or you have to work a 1-man cycle. Either way, that will greatly reduce the units offensive impact.

You're right that Seibert and Stuart are a good matchup against Esposito for you - I don't think anybody can "handle" Esposito in the slot, but those two are as good as any (short of Larry Robinson - Rod Langway) to keep up with him there. The thing is, you are heavily dependent on getting the matchups you want, as I see Esposito and friends absolutely dominating Gonchar or Liapkin down low. I get why you drafted both Gonchar and Liapkin - for how good those two are on the PP, you got them at great value. But at even strength, they have their issues, and they have those issues without having nearly the upside of a Paul Coffey.

I absolutely think that Sergei Gonchar is good enough to deserve second pairing minutes here, but if you draft him, you want to use him in as offensive a role as possible, meaning you want a "safe" bottom pairing. But Yuri Liapkin is another guy you don't really want to give a big defensive role to, and he's on your bottom pairing.

Sather, being so predictable with his lines, makes it very easy to get he match-ups I want, even if Tarasov isn't a big match-up guy. Even on the road, we'll get a lot of the match-ups we want. Face-off in our end, out comes Seibert and Stuart.... followed by exactly who we want them matched against. Face-off in your end, out comes either the Gonchar or Liapkin units.... followed by somebody other than the unit they'd have trouble with down low.

Neither Goncahr nor Liapkin will be deliberately used in defensive situations, but obviously hockey is unpredictable, and sometimes weird things happen to even the best designed plans. That's why I paired Gonchar with Bob Goldham and Liapkin with Rod Seiling. Even when they do get stuck in defensive spots, they have a partner who can do some of the heavy lifting there - especially Goldham.

I agree that Gonchar and Liapkin are guys who will struggle if they get stuck down low on the cycle - though anybody who reads the Gonchar bio will know he is a lot better defensively than he gets credit for. The thing is, though, that defensemen with skill help ensure that the puck doesn't end up down low. Defensemen that can get to loose pucks and make a good outlet pass prevent the cycle from even getting started. Gonchar and Liapkin may struggle on the cycle, but they are precisely the skilled guys who are going to make sure your cycle doesn't get going nearly as much as you want it to.

Your team isn't on the cycle just because you want them to be. You have to get it there first, and that's not always an easy task, especially against skilled defensemen or great puck-handling goalies.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I didn't say Esposito couldn't play long shifts. I said he wouldn't be a good match with Kovalchuk and Alfredsson.

The reason he could take long shifts was because he was a lazy player, and he relied on his linemates to do all the dirty work. He needs linemates who will do that.

There's a distinction here that I want to make sure that GMs make. Phil Esposito was at his best when his linemates did his dirty work, but he didn't need them to do so:
  • Esposito dominated the last 4 games of the Summit Series, playing mostly with J.P. Parise and Yvan Cournoyer. Parise was a small, fast, tenacious player in the corners like his son is today, but Cournoyer was anything but a guy who did the dirty work.
  • Esposito never reached his potential in Chicago (finishing 7th and 9th in points in his early 20s before the trade to Boston), but while there, he was the only center who had pretty good chemistry with Bobby Hull, so much so that Hull publicly complained when Espo was traded (this is in the Dishing the Dirt thread). Esposito was probably the most compatible center Hull had until Hull went to the WHA and played with the Swedes. In the 1976 Canada Cup, Esposito was purposely reunited on the same line as Bobby Hull.

You didn't build it with all-out offensive guys, but it will be playing an all-out offensive style. With Esposito at center, you have to do that. Both Abel and Armstrong will spend all their offensive time behind the goal line and in the corners, while Esposito will be the high guy. If the puck turns over, your first back-checker is Esposito, which basically means you have no back-checker.

Armstrong is a great defensive player, but a lot of that is based of positioning to compensate for lack of speed. If he's coming from the corner, he'll never catch up. Abel has more speed, but he's still coming from too far behind the play. Moreover, they will be doing all the work in a grinding, demanding style, and if they are going to be doing all the back-checking too, they are going to wear down.

In order to keep Abel and Armstrong in good defensive position, you either have to send Esposito into the corner, or you have to work a 1-man cycle. Either way, that will greatly reduce the units offensive impact.

Armstrong defensive ability will be more useful in helping get the puck back from Mystery when Mystery is on the cycle than in transition, true. Given his defensive reputation, despite lack of speed, and his reputation along the boards, I'd say he's probably close to elite at that.

Sather, being so predictable with his lines, makes it very easy to get he match-ups I want, even if Tarasov isn't a big match-up guy. Even on the road, we'll get a lot of the match-ups we want. Face-off in our end, out comes Seibert and Stuart.... followed by exactly who we want them matched against. Face-off in your end, out comes either the Gonchar or Liapkin units.... followed by somebody other than the unit they'd have trouble with down low.

I really don't think you want to play the "Sather is predictable because he gives his scorers the best offensive opportunities and uses his checkers in defensive situations" cards. I could counter with "Tarasov is predictable because from what we know of the system he created, the Soviets rolled five man units one right after the other, only taking a break only the PP or PK."

Neither Goncahr nor Liapkin will be deliberately used in defensive situations, but obviously hockey is unpredictable, and sometimes weird things happen to even the best designed plans. That's why I paired Gonchar with Bob Goldham and Liapkin with Rod Seiling. Even when they do get stuck in defensive spots, they have a partner who can do some of the heavy lifting there - especially Goldham.

I think Goldham is a good #3/4, but I see nothing in his profile about skating or speed, so I don't know if he's always going to be the ideal guy to cover for Gonchar if Gonchar gets out of position. Maybe I'm wrong there. Even if Goldham is the ideal partner for Gonchar, both defensemen are heavily relied on when the cycle is going.

Seiling has basically the same All-Star record as Doug Young and struggled in the Summit Series. He's a fine #6, but if your bottom pairing gets stuck out there against either of my scoring lines (and it's hard to avoid that happening from time to time), I don't think he's good enough to really carry the defensive load against that kind of scoring.

I agree that Gonchar and Liapkin are guys who will struggle if they get stuck down low on the cycle - though anybody who reads the Gonchar bio will know he is a lot better defensively than he gets credit for. The thing is, though, that defensemen with skill help ensure that the puck doesn't end up down low. Defensemen that can get to loose pucks and make a good outlet pass prevent the cycle from even getting started. Gonchar and Liapkin may struggle on the cycle, but they are precisely the skilled guys who are going to make sure your cycle doesn't get going nearly as much as you want it to.

Your team isn't on the cycle just because you want them to be. You have to get it there first, and that's not always an easy task, especially against skilled defensemen or great puck-handling goalies.

Enter Paul Coffey.

I think that with Armstrong in particular helping out the top pairing, we shouldn't have too much trouble winning pucks back in our defensive zone, and then it's up to Paul Coffey to quickly transition things back the other way. When the puck is in NJ's zone, I can see Abel and Espo waiting up high for transition, while Armstrong helps out the defense down low. Yes, it means there will be a few second delay before Armstrong will get up ice to join the offensive cycle game, but it's not like it will be easy for you to get the puck back from Coffey/Esposito/Abel anyway. I see Armstrong, with his size, strength, and defensive ability, as a good guy to cover for Coffey when Coffey is going all-offense. Armstrong's one weakness in that role, of course, is that he lacks the speed to rapidly transition from defense to offense, but you still have to get the puck back from Coffey/Abel/Esposito to make that an issue.

When my top pairing isn't on the ice, Tom Johnson is a key to getting the puck the other way:

NHL.com said:
He was highly regarded as a playmaker and he was tenacious in corners and along the boards.

legendsofhockey said:
He contributed to the Habs' rapid transitional game and would have scored more points had the team not already been blessed with Doug Harvey to quarterback the power-play.
...
Johnson soon became a stalwart on the penalty-killing unit, where the team utilized his speed and his ability to win the majority of the battles in the corners. One of Johnson's patented moves was to steal the puck from an attacking forward without bodily contact. This allowed him to feed a pass to one of his teammates while the opposition was still heading toward the Montreal net.

Tom Johnson didn't put up big point totals because he didn't rush up ice as often as Harvey, but his #1 skill was his ability to win possession of the puck in his own zone and rapidly turn things the other way.

He's paired with Lloyd Cook, a two-way defenseman who played for the Millionaires when the Millionaires encouraged their defensemen to lead the offense, and he led the PCHA in points by a defenseman a couple of times.

I think that between Johnson and Cook, the Swamp Devils' second pairing is going to more effective in transition than Mystery's second pairing, because Bob Goldham isn't going to help out much there at all.
 

Dreakmur

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There's a distinction here that I want to make sure that GMs make. Phil Esposito was at his best when his linemates did his dirty work, but he didn't need them to do so

He may not need his linemates to do certain things, but he is definately most effective when they do. You built your line because you knew that to be true. There's no way you place a guy like George Armstrong on a first line unless you are desperate for his corner work.
 

Dreakmur

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I think Goldham is a good #3/4, but I see nothing in his profile about skating or speed, so I don't know if he's always going to be the ideal guy to cover for Gonchar if Gonchar gets out of position. Maybe I'm wrong there. Even if Goldham is the ideal partner for Gonchar, both defensemen are heavily relied on when the cycle is going.

Seiling has basically the same All-Star record as Doug Young and struggled in the Summit Series. He's a fine #6, but if your bottom pairing gets stuck out there against either of my scoring lines (and it's hard to avoid that happening from time to time), I don't think he's good enough to really carry the defensive load against that kind of scoring.

Bob Goldham was not a fast skater, but he wasn't slow either. He's pobably a bit below average in this draft. Gonchar doesn't need a fast partner, he needs a positionally steady crease-clearer. As for his offensive skill, Goldham wasn't a big offensive producer, but he showed that he was a very competent puck handler. As I said before, Gonchar is not the defensive Pejorative Slur he has been painted as - he's no stud, but he has some defensive ability.

Seiling's all-star record may look similar to Young's, but the competition was quite a bit stiffer, especially the depth. Moreover, he was a steady defensive defenseman who played during Bobby Orr's revolutionizing of the way defensemen were viewed, so he was likely under-appreciated.

As for my 3rd pair struggling against your 1st line, I would agree. I think it would be rediculous to think any 3rd pair could stand up to any 1st line, so the Alaskans are hardly unique in that regard.
 

Dreakmur

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I really don't think you want to play the "Sather is predictable because he gives his scorers the best offensive opportunities and uses his checkers in defensive situations" cards. I could counter with "Tarasov is predictable because from what we know of the system he created, the Soviets rolled five man units one right after the other, only taking a break only the PP or PK."

I suppose you can counter with whatever you want, but it would likely work better if those claims were factually accurate.

We know that the post-Tarasov Soviet coaches employed 5-man units, and we also believe Tarasov was the one who developed that idea. We also know that Tarasov was an innovator, and that he used at least 3 completely unique systems.

As for the rolling of these 5-man units, we do know that the Soviets did use their lower lines more regularly than NHL teams did, but they didn't just roll 1-2-3-4, repeat 1-2-3-4.

We do know that Tarasov and Chernyshev pre-scouted their opponents. They were likely trailblazers in that regard, and they may even have been the first to do it. In terms of scouting and analyzing the oppnent, they were definately among the innovators, and it appears that they helped trigger its popular use in North America. Do you think they did this pre-scouting just for fun? Obviously, they were looking for weaknesses in their opponent's system and personnel that they could exploit. This assumption that Tarasov is not going to react, change, and adjust his system and the use of his lines to better exploit opponents is plainly rediculous.

Even if they didn't pre-scout, any coach with half a brain would get good match-ups against Sather, even if he didn't pay attention to line matching. Sather isn't even unique in his use of lines, you are just stressing what he does, so I'm demonstrating the results.

In the most important defensive situations, how much coaching talent does it take to know that you use your best defensive players? Not a whole lot. For a defensive zone face-off, just about every coach, under regular circumstances, is going to put out their best defensive guys. The same goes for offensive situations - most coaches, even without line-matching - will put out their offensive players. As a result, even if neither coach is deliberately matching lines, offensive and defensive lines are going to spend significant time macthed against each other.
 

Dreakmur

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Armstrong defensive ability will be more useful in helping get the puck back from Mystery when Mystery is on the cycle than in transition, true. Given his defensive reputation, despite lack of speed, and his reputation along the boards, I'd say he's probably close to elite at that.

No player can both forecheck and be in good defensive position at the same time. Either Armstrong will be digging in the trenches OR he will be in good defensive position.

If he is in the trenches, your team is exposed to counter-attacks should the puck turn over.

If he is in defensive position, you cycle game will deteriorate easily.

That's just something you have to live with when you start a team with Esposito.

I think that with Armstrong in particular helping out the top pairing, we shouldn't have too much trouble winning pucks back in our defensive zone, and then it's up to Paul Coffey to quickly transition things back the other way. When the puck is in NJ's zone, I can see Abel and Espo waiting up high for transition, while Armstrong helps out the defense down low. Yes, it means there will be a few second delay before Armstrong will get up ice to join the offensive cycle game, but it's not like it will be easy for you to get the puck back from Coffey/Esposito/Abel anyway. I see Armstrong, with his size, strength, and defensive ability, as a good guy to cover for Coffey when Coffey is going all-offense. Armstrong's one weakness in that role, of course, is that he lacks the speed to rapidly transition from defense to offense, but you still have to get the puck back from Coffey/Abel/Esposito to make that an issue.

So Armstrong is going to be this lines primary puck support in both the offensive and defensive zone? Then he's going to play defense when Coffey plays forward? Then he's going to work the corners while simultaneously being in good defensive position?
 

Dreakmur

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When my top pairing isn't on the ice, Tom Johnson is a key to getting the puck the other way:

Tom Johnson didn't put up big point totals because he didn't rush up ice as often as Harvey, but his #1 skill was his ability to win possession of the puck in his own zone and rapidly turn things the other way.

He's paired with Lloyd Cook, a two-way defenseman who played for the Millionaires when the Millionaires encouraged their defensemen to lead the offense, and he led the PCHA in points by a defenseman a couple of times.

I think that between Johnson and Cook, the Swamp Devils' second pairing is going to more effective in transition than Mystery's second pairing, because Bob Goldham isn't going to help out much there at all.

I think that if Johnson is the key to your transition game, you're in trouble. He's not an offensive dud or anything, but he's nothing more than average in terms of puck-moving skill.

As for Lloyd Cook, he is being oversold. If he accomplished everything he did in a consolidated league, he'd be a top-4 defenseman. Unfortunately, he accomplished what he did in a split league. Most imprtantly, his league had easily the weakest defensemen for competition. All the best guys were in the NHL, and the WCHL had a better group than the PCHA.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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He may not need his linemates to do certain things, but he is definately most effective when they do. You built your line because you knew that to be true. There's no way you place a guy like George Armstrong on a first line unless you are desperate for his corner work.

"Desperate" is such a harsh word... heh. Armstrong is there to do a certain role, much like Jack Walker (an inferior offensive player to Armstrong) on your top line. Anyway, Armstrong is my 4th best offensive winger and his draft position reflects though - he's on the 1st instead of the 2nd line because I decided Kovalchuk needed Alfredsson more.

Bob Goldham was not a fast skater, but he wasn't slow either. He's pobably a bit below average in this draft. Gonchar doesn't need a fast partner, he needs a positionally steady crease-clearer. As for his offensive skill, Goldham wasn't a big offensive producer, but he showed that he was a very competent puck handler. As I said before, Gonchar is not the defensive Pejorative Slur he has been painted as - he's no stud, but he has some defensive ability.

Seiling's all-star record may look similar to Young's, but the competition was quite a bit stiffer, especially the depth. Moreover, he was a steady defensive defenseman who played during Bobby Orr's revolutionizing of the way defensemen were viewed, so he was likely under-appreciated.

I'm not at all convinced that competition was steeper in the early 70s. You had Bobby Orr, but Orr was only a factor for guys who might have won Norrises without him, something that doesn't affect that likes of Seiling and Young. Past Orr, the competition in the early 70s NHL was pretty weak and wouldn't stronger until the later 70s. You might be right about being a post-expansion defensive defenseman being underrated. I don't know.

Are you planning on doing an in-depth line by line thing? I've been avoiding it because I think it's difficult with teams built so differently.


Dreakmur said:
As for my 3rd pair struggling against your 1st line, I would agree. I think it would be rediculous to think any 3rd pair could stand up to any 1st line, so the Alaskans are hardly unique in that regard.

Not just my 1st line - I see your bottom pairing struggling against my 2nd line too and you can't hide them from both especially when you don't want to give Gonchar a big defensive role. The unique thing about your bottom pairing is that you have Yuri Liapkin on it - a guy who was a fantastic goal scorer as a defenseman and a good choice for your power play, but whose complete lack of all-star recognition in the Soviet league paints him as something of a Phil Housley type. And this is a Housley of an inferior league.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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No player can both forecheck and be in good defensive position at the same time. Either Armstrong will be digging in the trenches OR he will be in good defensive position.

If he is in the trenches, your team is exposed to counter-attacks should the puck turn over.

If he is in defensive position, you cycle game will deteriorate easily.

That's just something you have to live with when you start a team with Esposito.



So Armstrong is going to be this lines primary puck support in both the offensive and defensive zone? Then he's going to play defense when Coffey plays forward? Then he's going to work the corners while simultaneously being in good defensive position?

I think I've been pretty clear about Armstrong's role by now. When Mystery has the puck in NJ's zone, he will be the primary defensive support player. When Coffey rushes the puck up the ice, Armstrong will hang back and Sid Abel will be the primary support player in the offensive zone, until NJ establishes possession in the offensive zone. Once NJ establishes possession, Armstrong joins the cycle game. And on offensive zone faceoffs - which the line will take a lot of and Phil Esposito will be very good at winning - both Abel and Armstrong can immediately join the cycle game.

My first line is definitely better in the offensive zone than in the defensive zone, which is why they'll usually be playing with Paul Coffey - to make sure they spend as much time in the offensive zone as possible.

I think that if Johnson is the key to your transition game, you're in trouble. He's not an offensive dud or anything, but he's nothing more than average in terms of puck-moving skill.

Johnson is not a puck rusher, so he's lacking that form of puck moving, but he was excellent at stripping the puck and starting the rush the other way. Agree that he's not ideal at carrying a pairing's puck moving alone, but he's getting a lot of help from Lloyd Cook.

Dreakmur said:
As for Lloyd Cook, he is being oversold. If he accomplished everything he did in a consolidated league, he'd be a top-4 defenseman. Unfortunately, he accomplished what he did in a split league. Most imprtantly, his league had easily the weakest defensemen for competition. All the best guys were in the NHL, and the WCHL had a better group than the PCHA.

Oh please. Lloyd Cook was a 1st Team All Star 3 times and a 2nd Team All Star 3 times in the PCHA. If he did that in a consolidated league, he'd be an excellent #2 defenseman in the ATD, not just "top 4."

Then there is this, which you said when I drafted him:

Dreakmur a few months ago said:
Cook has an excellent offensive peak. Even in you consolidated the leagues, he ends up with 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, which is very impressive. I was hoping to land him as a #5.

Judgement on these guys varies, but I see Cook as an average #4 with a well-rounded game. I don't think he's as good as Gonchar or Goldham (though he's more well-rounded than either), but he's playing next to a much better partner.

After Moose Johnson and Lester Patrick, who was the next best defenseman in the history of the PCHA?

This is from Bobby Rowe's profile:

Sturminator said:
PCHA Defensemen All-Star placements*:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=10258267&highlight=rowe#post10258267

Name|1st AST|2nd AST|Years between first/last AST
Ernie Johnson|8|1|10
Lester Patrick|4|2|8
Lloyd Cook|3|3|8
Bobby Rowe|3|2|7
Art Duncan|3|2|6
Frank Patrick|2|1|6
Clem Loughlin|1|3|4

The PCHA was a higher quality league when Moose Johnson and the Patrick brothers played played than when Duncan and Cook played, but I think Cook is one of several names who enters the conversation when you are talking about the possible 3rd best defenseman in PCHA history, though I don't think much distinguishes him from Duncan or Frank Patrick. Bobby Rowe is tough - this is the first time he was profiled, and it usually takes more than 1 draft for new information to "sink in," but maybe he's in the conversation too. Either way, I see a big drop from Lester Patrick (who I see as a bargain basement #2 here but other GMs like more), but how much lower can the rest of these guys be? I think calling them solid #4s is reasonable.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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Are you planning on doing an in-depth line by line thing? I've been avoiding it because I think it's difficult with teams built so differently.

As of right now, no. I'm currently limited to my phone.

Edit:
That also means that itks tougher to read, so I appologize if I misunderstand or misread some of your points.
 

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