Jim Coleman Conference 2nd round - Hershey Bears vs. Hartford Whalers

[Sturminator]

Hershey Bears
GMs: VanIslander & Hedberg

coach Art Ross
"...speed, agility, and cunning"

Luc Robitaille - Marcel Dionne - Gordie Howe (C)
Bun Cook -Tommy Dunderdale - Bobby Bauer
Herbie Lewis (A) - Cooney Weiland - Larry Aurie
Rabbit McVeigh - Ron Sutter - Jamie Langenbrunner
Mike Ricci, Slava Bykov, Andrei Khomutov

Mark Howe (A) - Moose Johnson
George McNamara - Larry Murphy
Hamby Shore - Fred Lake
Howard McNamara

Hugh Lehman
Tom Paton

vs.

Hartford Whalers

Coach: Al Arbour
Assistant coach:

Bobby Hull - Sergei Fedorov (A) - Theo Fleury
Keith Tkachuk - Pavel Datsyuk - Pavel Bure
Johnny Gottselig - Mike Peca (C) - Igor Liba
Tomas Sandstrom - Dan Bain - Paul MacLean
Miroslav Satan, Harry Oliver, Ladislav Trojak

Bill Gadsby - Harvey Pulford (A)
Moose Vasko - Graham Drinkwater
Reed Larson - Robert Svehla
Wade Redden

Harry Lumley
Mike Liut


PP1: Fedorov - Gadsby - Hull - Tkachuk - Bure
PP2: Larson - Drinkwater - Datsyuk - MacLean - Fleury

PK1: Vasko - Pulford - Peca - Fedorov
PK2: Gadsby - Svehla - Datsyuk - Liba​

Click to read more...

 

[ck26]

What was I just saying about an offense less inept than mine? Good luck to the seven Bears in the back ... Bure and Datsyuk could each have a broken leg and still outrun Larry Murphy and George McNamaar.

Two middling-to-bad ATD goalies against my favorite 1st line and probably my favorite top 6. Should be a thrilling series.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I definitely want to hear game plans for handling Hull and Howe from both teams

 

[BraveCanadian]

I definitely want to hear game plans for handling Hull and Howe from both teams

I'd say play them against one another like they often did for real.

But I'm not sure about Fedorov - Fleury vs Robitaille - Dionne.

Hartford gets the worst of that.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I see either Howe or Hull dominating whichever opposing wing goes against him if it isn't the other one.

The only winger on either team I see with significant defensive credentials is Herbie Lewis - and he plays the wrong side to check Hull. MAYBE Igor Liba, but again, wrong side, and even though MA showed that Liba is a lot better than we thought (I'm sure most of us never heard of him before this draft), Gordie Howe is a different animal. BC is right, there's a good chance both coaches play it conservatively and just match up Hull vs Howe on purpose.

Both teams have questionable bottom defensive pairings, which could make coaching more of a factor than it normally would be.

 

[bluesfan94]

Of course both also have good coaches. This is going to be a fantastic series.

 

[Elvis P]

I see either Howe or Hull dominating whichever opposing wing goes against him if it isn't the other one. The only winger on either team I see with significant defensive credentials is Herbie Lewis - and he plays the wrong side to check Hull. MAYBE Igor Liba, but again, wrong side, and even though MA showed that Liba is a lot better than we thought (I'm sure most of us never heard of him before this draft), Gordie Howe is a different animal. BC is right, there's a good chance both coaches play it conservatively and just match up Hull vs Howe on purpose. ...

Agreed. Great match up. Orr and Lemieux being gone makes it even more must see.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Of course both also have good coaches. This is going to be a fantastic series.

Hershey definitely has their own advantages, but I don't think Art Ross is really close to Al Arbour's class.

 

[bluesfan94]

Hershey definitely has their own advantages, but I don't think Art Ross is really close to Al Arbour's class.

Well not many people are, but it's not as though Art Ross is a bad coach.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well not many people are, but it's not as though Art Ross is a bad coach.

Art Ross was a good coach, but how does he compare to the best of the best?

 

[bluesfan94]

Art Ross was a good coach, but how does he compare to the best of the best?

Like I said, he's not the best of the best, but he's above average in the ATD imo. I may completely out to lunch on that, but hey, this won't be the first or last time I'm wrong.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Like I said, he's not the best of the best, but he's above average in the ATD imo. I may completely out to lunch on that, but hey, this won't be the first or last time I'm wrong.

Art Ross is a tough coach for me to rank because on the one hand, he was one of hockey's greatest innovators of all time, but on the other hand, his teams didn't do as well in the playoffs as they should have, at least partly due to undisciplined play, which is easy to blame on the coach. I think he's definitely behind Lester Patrick, Dick Irvin, and Tommy Gorman in his own era. Cecil Hart vs Art Ross vs Jack Adams might be an interested discussion, but then how many coaches of the 1930s can be "above average?"

 

[bluesfan94]

Art Ross is a tough coach for me to rank because on the one hand, he was one of hockey's greatest innovators of all time, but on the other hand, his teams didn't do as well in the playoffs as they should have, at least partly due to undisciplined play, which is easy to blame on the coach. I think he's definitely behind Lester Patrick, Dick Irvin, and Tommy Gorman in his own era. Cecil Hart vs Art Ross vs Jack Adams might be an interested discussion, but then how many coaches of the 1930s can be "above average?"

Fair enough. I guess I'm basing my judgment more on his innovating record than his actual record.

 

[MadArcand]

I'd say play them against one another like they often did for real.

But I'm not sure about Fedorov - Fleury vs Robitaille - Dionne.

Hartford gets the worst of that.

I don't really think so. The gap in defensive ability and skating/speed is immense.

In fact I find it ironic that Hershey has 'speed' as part of their motto with Robitaille slugging up the first line.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't really think so. The gap in defensive ability and skating/speed is immense.

The gap in offensive ability is about as immense. And then some.

In fact I find it ironic that Hershey has 'speed' as part of their motto with Robitaille slugging up the first line.

Robitaille does about one thing really well. We all know that skating isn't really that thing.

 

[MadArcand]

The gap in offensive ability is about as immense. And then some.

Sure, in regular season, and even there Robitaille is surprisingly pretty much in Fleury's ballpark. Come playoff time when Fedorov shines and Dionne chokes, it gets much closer.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Sure, in regular season, and even there Robitaille is surprisingly pretty much in Fleury's ballpark.

Outside of skating, Robitaille is easily a superior offensive player.

And that is before you figure in that he is playing the wing in shorter supply in that department.

Come playoff time when Fedorov shines and Dionne chokes, it gets much closer.

If you subscribe to the theory that Dionne ever had much of a realistic chance on those teams...

 

[MadArcand]

Outside of skating, Robitaille is easily a superior offensive player.

And that is before you figure in that he is playing the wing in shorter supply in that department.

There's just three players between them in Sturm's ES adjusted scoring comparison. They both ranked very highly to boot. Then factor in the line composition (how is Robitaille going to help in transition at all?).

And wing supply is meaningless, both teams have the best possible winger on the opposite wing.

EDIT: looking at the VsX thread, Robitaille is 16th among LWs with 84.4, Fleury is 21st among RWs with 82.3. Hardly a big gap.

 

[BraveCanadian]

There's just three players between them in Sturm's ES adjusted scoring comparison. They both ranked very highly to boot. Then factor in the line composition (how is Robitaille going to help in transition at all?).

Why does Robitaille need to help in transition that much on a line with Marcel Dionne and Gordie Howe?

Not to mention backed by guys like Mark Howe?

He is in pretty much his ideal situation to do what he does best.

And wing supply is meaningless, both teams have the best possible winger on the opposite wing.

Ok.

EDIT: looking at the VsX thread, Robitaille is 16th among LWs with 84.4, Fleury is 21st among RWs with 82.3. Hardly a big gap.

Ok, now what about the rest of their careers?

 

[MadArcand]

Why does Robitaille need to help in transition that much on a line with Marcel Dionne and Gordie Howe?

Not to mention backed by guys like Mark Howe?

He is in pretty much his ideal situation to do what he does best.

Drag his ass to the front of the net by the time the play is either going the other way or his team already scored?

Robitaille has pretty much one skill (and he's damn good at it). Is a line where both his linemates are better or at least equal to him at his lone specialty while playing at whole another speed level the best use of his talent?

Ok, now what about the rest of their careers?

How much of his career did Fleury spend riding shotgun to Gretzky again?

 

[BraveCanadian]

Drag his ass to the front of the net by the time the play is either going the other way or his team already scored?

Robitaille has pretty much one skill (and he's damn good at it). Is a line where both his linemates are better or at least equal to him at his lone specialty while playing at whole another speed level the best use of his talent?

I don't know I think they could let him do the thing he is best at and then use their other talents like most sensible people would do.

For example Howe has to be the big physical guy on that line and it frees him up to do so somewhat.

How much of his career did Fleury spend riding shotgun to Gretzky again?

I don't think any of his career - but he did have the benefit of playing on a very stacked team early in his career.

How much or Robitaille's career did he ride shotgun with Gretzky?

Most of the time he didn't play with Gretzky even when they were on the same team from my memory. He played with Nicholls.

 

[MadArcand]

How much or Robitaille's career did he ride shotgun with Gretzky?

Most of the time he didn't play with Gretzky even when they were on the same team from my memory. He played with Nicholls.

He played with Nicholls before Gretzky joined the Kings. From then on, he played mostly with him. I don't have the icetime charts here at work, but the scoring and +/- figures support that from 1989-90 onward.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He played with Nicholls before Gretzky joined the Kings. From then on, he played mostly with him. I don't have the icetime charts here at work, but the scoring and +/- figures support that from 1989-90 onward.

I'm not so sure about that outside of the powerplay. Maybe after Nicholls left they played together more?

In Robitaille's big 60 goal 125 point season, Gretzky only played 45 games for example.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fedorov would be an above average third liner based on defense alone, and then you add in offense (which is more of a second line ATD center than a first liner, but still dangerous in the counter attack), and I think he's a pretty tough matchup for Dionne if the lines go head to head.
__________

I don't think Robitaille played with Gretzky all that often. Isn't one of the arguments excusing Gretzky's poor adjusted plus minus in LA that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players on the team usually played together (which would include Robitaille and Nicholls when they were both there), while Gretzky was counted on to carry stiffs?

 

[MadArcand]

I'm not so sure about that outside of the powerplay.

Seasons together with Gretzky in LA:

1988-89:
ES TOI (forwards) - Gretzky 16.7, Nicholls 16, Robitaille 15.2, no one else over 13
ES points - G 100, N 87, R 74, no one else over 54 (Tonelli), no other center over 35 (Kasper)
+/- - G +15, N +30, R +5
Conclusion: judging by the +/-, Robitaille likely split time with multiple linemates - though Gretzky and/or Nicholls are by far the most likely culprits by TOI and points

1989-90:
ES TOI - G 17.2, R 14.9, Sandstrom 13.8, no one else over 13
ES pts - G 96, R 67, Sandstrom 43, Tonelli 44, Kasper 39
+/- - G +8, R +8, but Sandstrom -11
Conclusion: Gretzky and Robitaille are quite obviously together, the third line member would be more of a revolving door though, as Sandstrom doesn't fit

1990-91:
ES TOI - G 18.4, R 15.1, Sandstrom 15.2, no one else over 14 (Granato 14, Elik 12.4, Taylor 12.3)
ES pts - G 103, R 68, S 61, no one else over 50 (Elik 50, Granato 44, Taylor 43)
+/- - G +30, R +28, S +27 (Elik +20, Granato +22, Taylor +27)
Conclusion: seems like two clear lines of Robitaille - Gretzky - Sandstrom and Granato - Elik - Taylor

1991-92:
ES TOI - G 16.8, Kurri 14.2, R 14, Granato 13.9, Sandstrom 13.4, rest under 12.3
ES pts - G 63, R 60, Granato 49, Donnelly 42, Kudelski 36, Kurri 30, Sandstrom 29
+/- - G -12, R -4, Kurri -24, Granato +4, Sandstrom -2, Kudelski -15
Conclusion: Gretzky seems to have spent most of his time with Robitaille and Granato and likely some with Kurri and maybe Kudelski. No center beyond Gretzky within anywhere Robitaille's TOI and ESP, though.

1992-93:
ES TOI - R 15.4, G 15.1, Sandstrom 14.2, rest under 13.5
ES pts - R 76, G 38 (in 45 GP), Sandstrom 36, Granato/Kurri/Donnely all around 50, Corey Millen 22 in 42 GP
+/- - G +6, R +18, Sandstrom +12, Granato -1, Kurri +17, Donnely +17, Corey Millen +16
Conclusion: inconclusive mess, thanks to the Gretzky injury. But obviously Robitaille did well without him.

1993-94:
ES TOI - G 16.6, Kurri 14.5, R 13.7, Granato 13, rest under 12.4
ES pts - G 62, R 46, Kurri 31, Donnely 30, rest under
+/- - G -25, R -20, Kurri -24, the only ones near them were 4th liners Warren Rychel (-19) and Dixon Ward (-22)
Conclusion: painfully obvious line of Robitaille - Gretzky - Kurri