Jim Bennings Draft Record as Assistant GM in Boston

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Well if thats your premise for a draft than good luck with a team full of tweener talent along with Vanek and Miller.

Benning wasn't in charge of the 98 draft.

 

[fancouver]

Eh... Not really a fair comparison. Allen, Henrik and Daniel were 4th, 2nd and 3rd overall. The highest pick the Sabres ever received during that period was 5th overall. So there's a significant difference in pick quality. Besides that (because Excel is awesome and this is already in table format) let's total up the number of games and points for all draft picks.

• Canucks - 7924 Games Played, 3848 Points (0.48 PPG avg)
• Sabres - 11110 Games Played, 4503 Points (0.40 PPG avg)

So despite having significantly better pick quality and 2 HHOF (hopefully) players drafted 2nd and 3rd overall the Canucks still got significantly fewer games and points for our picks. Had our picks been near the position of the Sabres -- this wouldn't even be close.

Agreed, the draft position is something you can't ignore. Any draft with the Sedins is going to look good in comparison.

 

[Peter10]

Eh... Not really a fair comparison. Allen, Henrik and Daniel were 4th, 2nd and 3rd overall. The highest pick the Sabres ever received during that period was 5th overall. So there's a significant difference in pick quality. Besides that (because Excel is awesome and this is already in table format) let's total up the number of games and points for all draft picks.

• Canucks - 7924 Games Played, 3848 Points (0.48 PPG avg)
• Sabres - 11110 Games Played, 4503 Points (0.40 PPG avg)

So despite having significantly better pick quality and 2 HHOF (hopefully) players drafted 2nd and 3rd overall the Canucks still got significantly fewer games and points for our picks. Had our picks been near the position of the Sabres -- this wouldn't even be close.

I agree to a certain point but this isnt as easy as that. Yeah the Canucks had some top picks with the Sedins and Allen but if you use that, you would also have to look at the other picks. From 98-04 the Canucks had 61 picks with an avg position of 148, the Sabres had 65 picks with an avg position of 133. So the Sabres had and advantage, right? No it isnt, if one wants to he can keep on digging up the number to make the arguement fit. This is not taking a shot at you but only to show that its not that easy to judge scouting skill on games played only.

This all stems from the silly arguement that Benning had the best first two drafts ever in Canucks history which is rediculous premature. Along with all the talk that Benning is either the god of drafts or stinks at it. I dont like when people go to extremes in their arguements just because it fits their agenda yet they put no research into it.

 

[Peter10]

You're supposed to find "some" talent on the 2nd and 4th line. Being good at the draft means drafting NHLers, even depth players, in the later rounds. So yes, it's about the tweeners which makes it a good draft. And it looks like Benning was doing his job at the later rounds. It's not necessarily about getting a star player like Datsyuk in the 6th round. The 1st round is for drafting your core players.

Yep ha has found those guys, but I wouldnt call it outstanding drafting just because of that. Benning was doing "ok to good" after the 2nd round but not really good in the first. Was it because he got overruled by the GM? Maybe, we will never know. My point was not painting Benning as bad scout but only to put some perspective into the view of some that proclaim him as a high end talent evaluator.

 

[Dissonance]

2001:
1st round #22 Novotny, players with more GP drafted after him: Gleason, Kraijeck (including him should show what bad pick that was), Woywitka, Steckel
2nd round # 32 Roy, player drafted after him: Jackman, Tyutin, Cammalleri
the other 2nd rounders in Thorburn and Pominville were pretty good considering what was left (well yeah Plekance, Ehrhoff, Bieksa and Sharp but most teams failed to look at them)


2002:
1st round #11 Ballard, drafted after that: Eminger, Semin, Higgins, Gordon
1st round #20 Paille, drafted after that: Babchuk, Bergenheim, Eager, Steen, Ward, Slater, Stool, Daley, Greene, G. Campbell
6 further picks from round 3-7 combined to 14 gp (all from Hecl)
In round 8 they got Wideman which is fantastic in a vacuum but looking that all 6 before bombed it looks like a "got lucky" pick

I'm not sure dissecting each individual pick like this is the best way to judge a scout. No scout in the universe, no matter how good, makes the "perfect" pick 100% of the time. There will almost always be a better player taken later on or a better choice you could've made with hindsight.

What you want to see is a pattern — a scout who's drafting lots of NHLers and lots of players who at least come close to making the NHL. That indicates good judgment, which will pay off over time (even if it doesn't pay off with every individual pick).

Or put it another way: A team that takes 1 star NHL player and then 6 guys who can't even crack the ECHL has had a better draft than a team that drafts 3 NHL role players and 4 guys who play in the AHL. But odds are, the first team was just lucky and the second team actually has the more skilled scouts, even if the results didn't go their way that year. There's always a crap-shoot element to this.

And by all appearances, Benning ran a very good scouting team in Buffalo, averaging 2-3 NHLers each draft. A year like 2001 where you come away with Derek Roy, Chris Thorburn, and Jason Pominville is a successful draft by any metric, regardless of who else was available.

----------

That said, I have no idea how to square Benning's apparent success as Buffalo scout with his dismal pro scouting for us. Something doesn't add up.

 

[Luongos Knob]

Before Benning went to Boston, he was a scout.

If he wasn't in charge of or at least coordinating the amateur scouting in Boston, what was he doing there? Sitting around with a bottle of lotion and a box Kleenex?

haha funny joke xD

 

[Peter10]

I don't think over-analyzing each individual pick is a fair way to judge a draft. No scout in the universe, no matter how good, makes the "perfect" pick 100% of the time. There will almost always be a better player taken later on or a better choice you could've made with hindsight.

Fully agree with that, as I have said before its a game that can be played both ways. As I showed in a simplified way is that you can always bring up players that would have been better choices at that certain spot but you could also argue than on average he probably got a better number of games played out of his total picks.

If you spin that further, you could make the case that Benning is rather going for saver picks that might not be as sexy but will provide solid value. That of course will reduce the chance of getting a high end player but it will also better the chances to improve your depth easily.

Now there is no blueprint for building a team but I would say, you have a better chance at drafting a high end guy than getting him via trade/UFA but you could bringing in those 2nd/3rd line tweeners via trade/UFA when you already have that franchise guy.

What it shows to me (and thats solely my personal opinion) is that Benning is very solid at finding good supporting cast players in the draft but he probably wont find you any top end talent. Combing that with what I have seen from him in regards to trading, contract negotiations and so forth, I would say his perfect job would be scout or head scout. He obviously can see talent that gets you to the NHL but I am not so sure he has the talent to see what keeps you in the NHL.

 

[drax0s]

I agree to a certain point but this isnt as easy as that. Yeah the Canucks had some top picks with the Sedins and Allen but if you use that, you would also have to look at the other picks. From 98-04 the Canucks had 61 picks with an avg position of 148, the Sabres had 65 picks with an avg position of 133. So the Sabres had and advantage, right? No it isnt, if one wants to he can keep on digging up the number to make the arguement fit. This is not taking a shot at you but only to show that its not that easy to judge scouting skill on games played only.

Well, first of all, I think your figures are wrong -- the averages I get are 135 and 147. I'm sure that was an accident, but you do seem to have an agenda. Even so, are you really trying to argue that having picks 2, 3, 4, 23, 16, 23, 26 is similar in value to having picks 18, 20, 15, 22, 11, 5 and 13 because the Sabres global average pick is higher? Really? Bueller? If you owned one selection of picks, would you trade it for the other? I 100% would trade the Sabres pick position for the Canucks. No question.

Finally, you do realize the chance of a NHL player with pick 4 is significantly higher than pick 16, whereas picks 134 and 146 statistically have virtually the same chance, correct? Give your head a shake.

 

[topched88]

Regardless of past draft history, I have no problem with the picks hes made as a canucks GM. Ofcourse there are some head scratchers (stewart) and ones that I would love a mulligan on (Virtanen?). But I find I used to be alot more pissed off when I watch the draft than I have been in recent years.

 

[coldsteel79]

Here's another article about Buffalo when Jim was there although it doesn't mention him
http://www.todaysslapshot.com/one-timers/nhl-draft-analysis-finding-500-game-players/

 

[Breakers]

Regardless of past draft history, I have no problem with the picks hes made as a canucks GM. Ofcourse there are some head scratchers (stewart) and ones that I would love a mulligan on (Virtanen?). But I find I used to be alot more pissed off when I watch the draft than I have been in recent years.

Everyone says they would have drafted him later like they knew this would happen.

But I agree with Bob Mackenzie when he said that is just ignorant. He said although he was drafted too high, he was still going to be picked top 10 regardless.

It just sucks that we got him.

 

[Breakers]

Another Item that needs to be brought to the attention is Tyler Sequins trade.

Benning is only somewhat mentioned in that HBO 24/7 documentary.

But for some reason I have a feeling he was all over that stupid trade.

That trade is on par with Washington trading Filip forsberg.

 

[Peter10]

Well, first of all, I think your figures are wrong -- the averages I get are 135 and 147. I'm sure that was an accident, but you do seem to have an agenda. Even so, are you really trying to argue that having picks 2, 3, 4, 23, 16, 23, 26 is similar in value to having picks 18, 20, 15, 22, 11, 5 and 13 because the Sabres global average pick is higher? Really? Bueller? If you owned one selection of picks, would you trade it for the other? I 100% would trade the Sabres pick position for the Canucks. No question.

Finally, you do realize the chance of a NHL player with pick 4 is significantly higher than pick 16, whereas picks 134 and 146 statistically have virtually the same chance, correct? Give your head a shake.

As I have said before, I dont really care for the numbers, I took them just from hockeydb.com and took the averages from excel. The Sedin are heads and shoulders above any other player in the 99 draft. In fact, if you took both out of this, it would probably one, if not the worst draft years ever.

However, it seems you dont get the point of my arguement, its if you run into some luck you have one or two guys that will absolutely save that draft year and maybe also the next one or two.

And no, I wont give my head a shake. Yes Benning had only one top choice with the 5th overall when he got Vanek. Could he have done worse? Sure! Could he have done better? Yes probably!

I have already stated that I think the Bennings record while being in Buffalo looks very much ok at least but I dont see it as the blueprint for drafting. Its not like he schooled every other team in drafting during those years. He was good which is all you can ask for. I just put up this Canucks picks as an example that Bennings picks werent the outstanding picks that some people like to make them out for.

 

[Intangibos]

Where did the myth about Benning being a genius drafter begin?

I just go along with it because it's easier. That way we can talk about his ineptitude as a GM, given his track record in Vancouver. I don't think he's an excellent drafter, but bringing that up with derail the thread. I just leave it because even if he were an excellent drafter, it doesn't matter when he constantly trades our picks/prospects for peanuts.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

I just go along with it because it's easier. That way we can talk about his ineptitude as a GM, given his track record in Vancouver. I don't think he's an excellent drafter, but bringing that up with derail the thread. I just leave it because even if he were an excellent drafter, it doesn't matter when he constantly trades our picks/prospects for peanuts.

Pedan and Bae are penauts?

 

[drax0s]

I have already stated that I think the Bennings record while being in Buffalo looks very much ok at least but I dont see it as the blueprint for drafting. Its not like he schooled every other team in drafting during those years. He was good which is all you can ask for. I just put up this Canucks picks as an example that Bennings picks werent the outstanding picks that some people like to make them out for.

What? "very much ok"? I'm curious to hear your argument about how drafting DOUBLE the league average is just "okay" from the article previously linked in this thread:

The Sabres’ success is made all the more impressive by the fact that the team drafted only 75 times between 2000-2008. The team drafted 500-gamers with approximately 15 percent of their choices, almost double the league average.

Is your argument now that Benning and the Sabres were just lucky? Well, </thread> then -- there's no way to really prove or disprove that.

 

[Pavel96]

Where did the myth about Benning being a genius drafter begin?

Wasn't there a video of him in Boston talking tough with Cam Neely and others around? Heard so much about how awesome he was in that video.

Then the Canucks made some of their own videos with everyone crammed in a room talking cool with Jimmy B

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

If by fantastic you mean average then sure.

Benning's drafting is elite, not average. If you compare Benning's tenure as as scout in Buffalo from 1999-2004.

He made 46 draft picks during that time, which averaged 212 games played (9753 GP total).

I counted 11 quality players - Stafford, Sekera, Vanek, MacArthur, Hejda, Wideman, Paille, Roy, Pominville, Gaustad, Miller
And 2 all stars - Vanek, Miller

In the same time period Detroit, a team that everyone would agree is in the top tier of drafting, made 50 picks which averaged only 124 games played (6126 total).

I counted only 10 quality players - Franzen, Howard, Quincey, Hudler, Fleischmann, Filppula, Ericsson, Kronwall, Kopecky, Zetterberg
And 2 all stars - Kronwall & Zetterberg

 

[Intangibos]

Pedan and Bae are penauts?

A broken clock is right twice a day?

I like Bae, and I liked the trade from day 1. Pedan I'm not as sure about because of his concussion history, but I like how he's progressed.

Clendening isn't even peanut tier, though.

 

[Peter10]

What? "very much ok"? I'm curious to hear your argument about how drafting DOUBLE the league average is just "okay" from the article previously linked in this thread:

Is your argument now that Benning and the Sabres were just lucky? Well, </thread> then -- there's no way to really prove or disprove that.

No my arguement it that just judging by games playes is utterly stupid. And while i am exaggerating here, I rather have one top guy playing 800 games than 5 guys playing 2000 games but are nothing more than then career 3rd-4th liners which you can easily grab via free agency or for a 5th or 6th round draft pick.

Yeah Vanek was a top choice but with the 5th overall in probably one of the best drafts ever you better make a solid pick. Other than that Buffalo got a solid top6 guy in Pominville and a nice 3rd line in Gaustad (in his short lived prime). Roy, Ballard and Wideman were good picks too and I am not gonna argue that but yet you pretend this was like the holy grail of drafting. Sorry if I am not following you, the drafting of the Sabres from 98-04 was very solid, nothing more and nothing less.

If you want to attack me for partially supporting you in your Benning-crush go ahead and I have no problem, you are wasting your bullets there. Go for a meeting with Jimson and dream all about how absolutly handsome those picks in 2014 and 2015 were when they havent even played 60 games yet. Get blinded by some great junior/college games that dont provide any clear indication of whether that player will or will not make it in the NHL. Go on an dream about Johansen signing as a UFA with the Canucks as soon as he can in 2018.

And here is your soundtrack while waiting for the glorious year to come:

 

[Breakers]

A broken clock is right twice a day?

I like Bae, and I liked the trade from day 1. Pedan I'm not as sure about because of his concussion history, but I like how he's progressed.

Clendening isn't even peanut tier, though.

He finds a Gem in the 5th round who makes some noise around the league at the WJC, he is all of sudden on everyone's radar and he trades that said person for Clendening who fell out of favor.

 

[drax0s]

No my arguement it that just judging by games playes is utterly stupid. And while i am exaggerating here, I rather have one top guy playing 800 games than 5 guys playing 2000 games but are nothing more than then career 3rd-4th liners which you can easily grab via free agency or for a 5th or 6th round draft pick.

... which I tried to account for by comparing average PPG. Canucks - 7924 Games Played, 3848 Points (0.48 PPG avg). Sabres - 11110 Games Played, 4503 Points (0.40 PPG avg). The claim that the Sabres drafted a slew of unskilled 3rd liners that didn't produce is disingenuous.

Yeah Vanek was a top choice but with the 5th overall in probably one of the best drafts ever you better make a solid pick. Other than that Buffalo got a solid top6 guy in Pominville and a nice 3rd line in Gaustad (in his short lived prime). Roy, Ballard and Wideman were good picks too and I am not gonna argue that but yet you pretend this was like the holy grail of drafting. Sorry if I am not following you, the drafting of the Sabres from 98-04 was very solid, nothing more and nothing less.

Well, at least you've moved up from okay to very solid. Who would you say drafted excellently during that period?

If you want to attack me for partially supporting you in your Benning-crush go ahead and I have no problem, you are wasting your bullets there. Go for a meeting with Jimson and dream all about how absolutly handsome those picks in 2014 and 2015 were when they havent even played 60 games yet. Get blinded by some great junior/college games that dont provide any clear indication of whether that player will or will not make it in the NHL. Go on an dream about Johansen signing as a UFA with the Canucks as soon as he can in 2018.

What the hell is this? I point out that you presented a factually incorrect argument and you leap down my throat? Dude, you were wrong in this case -- that's fine. Plenty of people are wrong. There are PLENTY of things to get on Benning's case about.

And here is your soundtrack while waiting for the glorious year to come:

Fittingly, similarly to your argument, your youtube embed doesn't work either.

 

[Peter10]

What the hell is this? I point out that you presented a factually incorrect argument and you leap down my throat? Dude, you were wrong in this case -- that's fine. Plenty of people are wrong. There are PLENTY of things to get on Benning's case about.

Oh sorry I forgot you are right about anything. I forgot that saying that you are right about something is actually better than providing good facts other than stupid games played numbers which dont say anything about the quality of players drafted.

Fittingly, similarly to your argument, your youtube embed doesn't work either.

Oh my YouTube didnt work despite me putting the share link into the youtube app here, I am failing big time

Just for you I am doing it old school with a single link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4KTpdx1wY

And just help each others out right now, I have put you on my ignore list, I strongly suggest you do the same with me.

 

[drax0s]

...Draaaamaaa.

 

[MS]

I have a hard time believing that Benning was not involved with scouting in Boston.

He was clearly heavily involved in Boston's drafting.

Go through post-draft articles and videos throughout his time there, and he's the primary media go-to for explaining picks and draft strategy, etc. He wouldn't be put in that role if he wasn't in the thick of things.

And yeah, Boston stunk. Probably the worst drafting team in the NHL during his time there.

I honestly have no idea how he succeeded in Buffalo. He took over after Jack Bowman (Scotty's brother) died, and you have to wonder if Bowman - who was regarded as one of the best talent evaluators around - just had such a good group of scouts in place that things kept ticking over well.