Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 13)

[montreal]

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Player Discussion - Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 12)

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[peate]

How long will they be patient with KK before they send him to Laval, if ever?

Too much talent to lose hope, he'll break out of it sooner or later.

 

[417]

Send Kotkaniemi to Laval to call up Poehling?

The same Poehling who got got benched in the 3rd period of his last game with Laval?

Again, not sure what folks think is happening in Laval...but there's no reason to send him down at this point. He's not hurting the team and its not because he's not accumulating points that he's not developing.

It's an odd suggestion to say the least.

I'd like him to play a bit more, but he's at least getting some ice time and he's got a role.

 

[Sentinels]

Should just be patient with this kid. Mark Scheifele was not the player he is now at KK's age either. Took him a few years before he established himself. Was sent back to the OHL and had a stint in AHL and still needed two more NHL seasons before he really contributed.

 

[CauZuki]

Send Kotkaniemi to Laval to call up Poehling?

The same Poehling who got got benched in the 3rd period of his last game with Laval?

Again, not sure what folks think is happening in Laval...but there's no reason to send him down at this point. He's not hurting the team and its not because he's not accumulating points that he's not developing.

It's an odd suggestion to say the least.

I'd like him to play a bit more, but he's at least getting some ice time and he's got a role.

So your argument is we don't send our top prospect (who is currently getting 4th line ice-time) to the AHL because both environments seem inept at developing our prospects?

That doesn't make sense to me and fails to put blame on an obvious problem impacting the Habs organization...

 

[Death]

Playing in the A would help, definitely. Sometimes when the level's too high, it's good to work on your game at the level below, to "repair" bad habits, confidence, ... it can even change the player's mindset on the ice. It won't turn him into something he's not but it would give him the time and space to regain confidence in his abilities, maybe just some fun too with lots of icetime and responsibilities. It doesn't need to last a whole season, just a few weeks to get back on tracks.

 

[CauZuki]

Should just be patient with this kid. Mark Scheifele was not the player he is now at KK's age either. Took him a few years before he established himself. Was sent back to the OHL and had a stint in AHL and still needed two more NHL seasons before he really contributed.

Enough with the anecdotal evidence, it's certainly not black/white and he is not heading towards bust territory but the criteria for success is strong development. We clearly see teams either give their young stars the ice-time or they go back to AHL/Juniors. No team does what we are doing with their top 5 pick and with Habs history of development perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to think that we are in the presence of innovators. The statistics don't back any of the opposing arguments in the least bit and if I have to hear another "trust me he's going to be fine" type post...I'm seriously going to lose it and enough with the mentioning of Joe Thornton...Today's NHL has nothing to do with 1998/1999, get with the times 19 year olds can play now and that's how they flourish (with confidence). In Habs management we trust , remind me how many Habs drafted players have lead the league over the last 25+ years? (Hint:Nobody)

Oh by the way, Scheifele played 18 min a night in his second full season.

 

[417]

So your argument is we don't send our top prospect (who is currently getting 4th line ice-time) to the AHL because both environments seem inept at developing our prospects?

I didn't say that at all

That doesn't make sense to me and fails to put blame on an obvious problem impacting the Habs organization...

be that as it may...this still doesn't justify sending him down.

To me that makes no sense.

 

[417]

Playing in the A would help, definitely.

Definitely?

Sometimes when the level's too high, it's good to work on your game at the level below, to "repair" bad habits, confidence, ... it can even change the player's mindset on the ice. It won't turn him into something he's not but it would give him the time and space to regain confidence in his abilities, maybe just some fun too with lots of icetime and responsibilities. It doesn't need to last a whole season, just a few weeks to get back on tracks.

What about when the level is inferior? How does that aid in development?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Send Kotkaniemi to Laval to call up Poehling?

The same Poehling who got got benched in the 3rd period of his last game with Laval?

Again, not sure what folks think is happening in Laval...but there's no reason to send him down at this point. He's not hurting the team and its not because he's not accumulating points that he's not developing.

It's an odd suggestion to say the least.

I'd like him to play a bit more, but he's at least getting some ice time and he's got a role.

sure, but sending him out on the ice once in a while does not = developing.

 

[Deebs]

Question, if KK did get sent down for a stint, who's the most likely to be brought up...Evans?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Question, if KK did get sent down for a stint, who's the most likely to be brought up...Evans?

Evans for sure, replace your 4th liner by another potential bottom 6.

 

[Frank Drebin]

So your argument is we don't send our top prospect (who is currently getting 4th line ice-time)

Who do you feel is our top line C? Domi or Danault, and why?

 

[Eye Test]

Surprised how he has looked this year tbh expected a lot more.

 

[CauZuki]

I didn't say that at all


be that as it may...this still doesn't justify sending him down.

To me that makes no sense.

You pointed towards Laval being a bad place because of the treatment of Poehling and alluded to not being a good place for KK as he would perhaps follow a similar fate. Since the other side of this argument is that Claude isn't doing a great job with developing KK and playing in the AHL would be the natural next step (the only other choice really). You've essentially combined two arguments into one where you paint his development in the NHL as not bad and the AHL as a potentially worse place for him. I disagree with that premise as I don't think Poehling's treatment is material with KK's development and I would certainly hope we wouldn't allow Bouchard to destroy our prospects in favour of AHL success.

 

[417]

sure, but sending him out on the ice once in a while does not = developing.

Agreed 100%...to me there's a delicate balance

2 weeks ago, I was in the Kotkaniemi thread wondering what the hell CJ was doing..

Kotkaniemi had no role on the team other then being the designated too many men on the ice penalty box guy.

I was clamouring for CJ to give him a role...since then he's now on the PP unit, last night he even took a handful of shifts in between Gallagher/Tatar in the 2nd and 3rd period with a 3 goal lead.

If the coaching staff can continue to do that...i've got no problem with his usage.

 

[Mia]

He's playing with lekhonen, our worst offensive foward by a mile. Ofc he won't produce much just like any line with lekh on it

+ Byron is far from playing his best hockey atm

 

[Garbageyuk]

Enough with the anecdotal evidence, it's certainly not black/white and he is not heading towards bust territory but the criteria for success is strong development. We clearly see teams either give their young stars the ice-time or they go back to AHL/Juniors. No team does what we are doing with their top 5 pick and with Habs history of development perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to think that we are in the presence of innovators. The statistics don't back any of the opposing arguments in the least bit and if I have to hear another "trust me he's going to be fine" type post...I'm seriously going to lose it and enough with the mentioning of Joe Thornton...Today's NHL has nothing to do with 1998/1999, get with the times 19 year olds can play now and that's how they flourish (with confidence). In Habs we trust , remind me how many Habs drafted players have lead the league over the last 25+ years? (Hint:Nobody)

Enough with the "lost confidence" BS. Why doesn't he get out there and work his ass off? Finish checks, battle hard for pucks, fight to get into the dirty areas, backcheck like his life depends on it, block shots. He should be working harder at these things than anyone else on the team right now. Where is the hunger? That's what good players do when they aren't scoring. That's how he can earn more icetime if he's not putting pucks in the net or otherwise getting points. Being jittery, and timid and floating is not going to help him.

 

[Death]

Definitely?


What about when the level is inferior? How does that aid in development?

As I said, it's about time and space. Get confidence back ... inferior level can do wonders to boost morale, belief in one's abilities. It can remind a player what he's able to do and come back to the higher level with the will to prove it. As of now, KK looks like he is enduring the game.

Edit : some posters said development is never linear ... and I believe it too. Take a step back, or a stair down, to come back stronger !

 

[417]

You pointed towards Laval being a bad place because of the treatment of Poehling and alluded to not being a good place for KK as he would perhaps follow a similar fate.

I didn't say Laval was a bad place and I did say Kotkaniemie would follow a similar fate.

I questioned the logic behind sending down a player in Kotkaniemi, who isn't hurting the team whatsoever, to recall a player who by all accounts, isn't playing all that great in Laval.

Since the other side of this argument is that Claude isn't doing a great job with developing KK and playing in the AHL would be the natural next step (the only other choice really). You've essentially combined two arguments into one where you paint his development in the NHL as not bad and the AHL as a potentially worse place for him. I disagree with that premise as I don't think Poehling's treatment is material with KK's development and I would certainly hope we wouldn't allow Bouchard to destroy our prospects in favour of AHL success.

Yeah you jumped to a lot of conclusions on your own here...

I wasn't happy with how CJ was using Kotkaniemi to start the year but things have been better the last few games.

But Laval was not and will not ever be an option for Kotkaniemi as far as i'm concerned.

 

[Garp]

Agreed 100%...to me there's a delicate balance

2 weeks ago, I was in the Kotkaniemi thread wondering what the hell CJ was doing..

Kotkaniemi had no role on the team other then being the designated too many men on the ice penalty box guy.

I was clamouring for CJ to give him a role...since then he's now on the PP unit, last night he even took a handful of shifts in between Gallagher/Tatar in the 2nd and 3rd period with a 3 goal lead.

If the coaching staff can continue to do that...i've got no problem with his usage.

I totally agree. I like how he is handled. He's not ready for heavy minutes. He's growing into his body and still a teenager. I thought adding him to the PP helps his development more than sending him to the AHL.

 

[CauZuki]

Who do you feel is our top line C? Domi or Danault, and why?

Domi is our top line C as he drives the offense and plays with our best wingers (potentially).
Danault gets more ice-time because our coach is among a plethora of dinosaurs that prefer safe players and prioritizes their ice-time accordingly. On paper I see it like this:

Domi
Danault
KK

I would expect to see Danault on the PK more often and KK on the PP. I would not expect such a disparity over the two (in terms of ice-time) and I certainly wouldn't expect it to be this bad where I see Thompson more than KK. He's 19 he needs to play , this is the opinion of nearly all the GMs/Coaches in the NHL when it comes to top picks, we've discussed this to no end so I won't elaborate further.

Ice-time matters when it's this low, no other team does it this way and nobody can guarantee that "everything will be fine"...100% faith.

 

[417]

As I said, it's about time and space. Get confidence back ... inferior level can do wonders to boost morale, belief in one's abilities. It can remind a player what he's able to do and come back to the higher level with the will to prove it. As of now, KK looks like he is enduring the game.

Time and space in the AHL is not time and space in the NHL...

Edit : some posters said development is never linear ... and I believe it too. Take a step back, or a stair down, to come back stronger !

The reflex can't always be to send young players down to Laval the moment they struggle - a few weeks ago everyone here would have sent down Suzuki.

But would we do the same today?

No, he adjusted and now he's playing well...i'm confident Kotkaniemi, who btw isn't even playing that bad, will do the same.

 

[417]

I totally agree. I like how he is handled. He's not ready for heavy minutes. He's growing into his body and still a teenager. I thought adding him to the PP helps his development more than sending him to the AHL.

I don't necessarily agree with that...but the team currently has "better" options for that role.

So he's going to have to get by with what he gets.

But this is the challenge for the coaching staff...they have to try to mix him in to an expanded role every so often, challenge him, when you've got a big lead like last night...

Give Danault a break and play Kotkaniemi more.

When you're not playing well and you're a few goals down...throw caution to the wind and bump Kotkaniemi up to one of the top 2 lines for that game.

etc

 

[Frank Drebin]

Domi is our top line C as he drives the offense and plays with our best wingers (potentially).
Danault gets more ice-time because our coach is among a plethora of dinosaurs that prefer safe players and prioritizes their ice-time accordingly. On paper I see it like this:

Domi
Danault
KK

I would expect to see Danault on the PK more often and KK on the PP. I would not expect such a disparity over the two (in terms of ice-time) and I certainly wouldn't expect it to be this bad where I see Thompson more than KK. He's 19 he needs to play , this is the opinion of nearly all the GMs/Coaches in the NHL when it comes to top picks, we've discussed this to no end so I won't elaborate further.

Ice-time matters when it's this low, no other team does it this way and nobody can guarantee that "everything will be fine"...100% faith.

You are familiar with the actual usage statistics this year? Danault plays about 2:00 more per game at even strength but Kotka will soon pass him for PPTOI per game.