Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Hunter Gathers, Nov 19, 2006.
Just scored his 600th goal VS Johan Holmqvist and the Tampa Bay Lightning.
still scored one of my favourite all-time goals..
- against Chicago, dekes out three players then rifles a backhand home.
- against Washington, completley turns a defenseman inside out, dekes out the goalie and puts er home.
Not a particularly big fan, but kudos to a guy who played a good part of his career in a boring, low scoring league.
Even a meaningless game he plays in now takes on some importance for me because i realise there are only so many more opportunities to see him play hockey from here on in.When he's on the tube i make sure to watch,he's now in the backend of his career and he's always been an awfully fun guy to watch over the years.
I suggest watching him play as often as you can from here on in while he's still at the top of his game.
Agreed. It's going to be extremely sad the day he hangs up his skates. One of the most electrifying players of all time.
He's a gem for sure.One of the funnest guys to watch play that i've ever seen,A true hockey artist.
I'm sure posters vary on the part of his game that they like the best but for me it was always watching his work coming out of the corners that i've always been partial to,i think he's about the best i've ever seen in that respect.His size,skating stride,strength and skill wheeling out of there even in the clutch and grab era was always a treat to watch.Even with behemoths leaning on him he'd just keep his position with those strong legs and upper body and then use his great hands and stickhandling to juke a few other guys and then make a scoring play with either a sweet pass or the shot himself.
I'll always think of that when i remember him playing once he's gone.
Way to go Jammy...
Congrats Jaromir. I saw him play live for the first time last year. He was actually a lot more explosive live than on TV. He sure is a hellof a player
I posted that in a few other threads, figured I would post it again for you guys and gals. Congrats Jag's
It's fair to say he's top 20 all-time, around the likes of Mikita, Lafleur and Esposito.
Gawd that's a good comparison. Very reasonable.
Which means of course we still have yet to hear in from the jagrmeisters who pimp their boy as top-5 all time.
Pfft. You humans and your base-10 accomplishments. 601 is the next prime number. Now THAT will be an accomplishment.
I've always like how he used his strength on the puck. He has always been nearly impossible to move off of it once it's on his stick. Awesome watching him control it with one hand and hold off a defender with the other (too bad you really can't do that much in the "new" NHL).
Truly an incredible player.
It will also tie Kurri for most career NHL goals by any non-North American.
Only 3 points from matching Mikita's most career NHL points by any non-NA.
What's amazing is that he has played during an era averaging less than 6 goals per game, not the 7-8 goals per game of the 70s & 80s. Add in the 118 games he missed to labor disputes, and his adjusted totals are incredible.
Jagr's claim as an all-time great:
5 Art Rosses (twice runner-up), 3 Pearsons, a Hart (and a finalist 5-6 times for each), 2 Stanley Cups, triple gold (Cup,Olympics,WC), 7 times a first team all-star, 14 consecutive 30 goal seasons, 600 goals, closing in on 1500 points, 67 playoff goals, 155 playoff points, led the NHL in assists 3 times, led the NHL in both even strength points and ES assists in the same season 3 times (only player since at least 80s to accomplish it even once), captain of 2 NHL teams, +249 career and made playoffs 13/15 years on mostly mediocre teams, NHL season records for points and assists by a RW, Ranger season records for goals and points... and he's still at or near his best (once his shoulder is fully healed, perhaps new & improved?).
Probably as good as any player (or at least forward) ever at even strength, probably as good as any wing ever. Only players to top his offensive production at his peak were Gretzky and Lemieux, with Jagr and Esposito battling for third/fourth.
The numbers seem to say: Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Howe/Esposito
I would rank them more like: Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr/Howe, Esposito
"He doesn't know how to play the game"
-- Don Cherry, 1992
I know you think very highly of Jagr. Talent alone he would probably be top 5. Jagr isn't on the same level as Howe. A couple of weeks back I was looking at how many times Howe finished in the top ten in scoring. Goals he was 19 times in the top ten, 10 times he was top three and he finished 1st 5 times in the league.
Assists he was in the top ten 22 times which is amazing. Players are lucky if they play 22 seasons. 21 times he was in the top ten with points. He finished with 6 Hart Trophies and was in the top 5 of voting 16 times.
I know there are some that rank Jagr in the top five of all time but for me to put him in that group he would have to play another 6 years, get a couple more Hart Trophies and lead his team to the Cup. Even if he did that I still don't think I would put him in the top five. I would rank him with regards to forwards around 10-15. It will be interesting when he retires to see where people will rank him.
Jagr is in the elite group that can be dominant shooters and passers. (Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Lafluer.) But, he is not in the elite group that can change the face of the game. (Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux.) He's probably one of the top 10 forwards of all time and top 20 players.
No question Jagr will be thought of as an all-time great & will most likely crack the top 10 forwards. However, top 5 is highly unlikely. He will never surpass Lemieux, Howe, Gretzy, Hull & Beliveau. Take it from someone who saw all these guys play. By the way you also have Esposito ranked way too high.
he has never mead ateam to a championship
he has 2 cups because of mario
Greatest European to ever play the game.
This thread has nothing to do with Dominik Hasek
I'd go with Stan Mikita myself, reck, but that's just me, and that's only if you count Mikita as a European. While Jagr's comparable with Mikita offensively, Jagr didn't have Mikita's all-round game. Don't let those two Lady Byng Trophies fool you; Mikita was a very physical player. I believe he holds the record for most PIM's for an Art Ross winner.
You could also make a case for Fetisov, Lidstrom or Kurri as the best ever.
I had a lot of disdain for Jagr for most of his career. He's the type of player I've never held a lot of respect for. Great offensive player, best offensive player in the league at his peak. A fantasy dream, but there's a world of difference between the NHL and fantasy hockey. (And this coming from a guy who's won his fantasy championship the last two NHL seasons). The Jagr we saw from 1995 to 2004 was not the type of guy you were going to win a Cup with as your best player. Jagr was too moody, too inconsistent, too prone to disappearing, to be THE GUY on a Cup champ. And if you can't be THE GUY on a Cup champ, you have no right being mentioned in the same breath guys like Messier, Clarke, Trottier, Mikita, LaFleur, Bossy, or Lindsay, let alone the Big 6 forwards. (Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, Beliveau, Bobby Hull).
Jagr's petulance for indifference really became glaring in Washington, but even in those last two years in Pittsburgh, he went through stretches of distinct apathy. Before Lemieux returned in 2000-01, his performance reeked of someone who wanted out. That "get me out of here" attitude was really apparent in the post-season.
He's a different player since the lockout, but more importantly, he's a different person. The year in Russia really rejuvinated him. While it would be hard to qualify last season as his best - he was so good in 1998-99 - he played a different game and a different role than he'd ever played before. He backchecked. He worked hard beyond the offensive zone when the puck wasn't on his stick.
He was still the bull who might be the strongest player in the league on his skates, and he's still a multi-dimensional offensive threat, but you could tell he cared again. His relationship with Tom Renney is the strongest he's had with a coach since Bob Johnson. (And Renney isn't always the easiest coach to get along with). And when he went down in the playoffs, you saw the reality of last year's Rangers offensively: they have a lot of good players (Straka, Nylander, Rucinsky, last year's Prucha), but nobody who had the mentality of a go-to producer. I respect this Jagr.
This Jagr could be a guy who leads a team to a Cup. This isn't the Jagr who once said (paraphrase): "I want to go to Florida so I can hang out with chics on the beach. I have enough Stanley Cup rings." But being THE GUY (or even the No. 2 or 3 guy) on a Cup champ, would really cement his legacy, more than any other thing he could do.
I can see ranking him behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Howe among forwards, but that's about it. Difficult to make a definitive argument for Esposito, Lafleur, Hull, Mikita, Messier, Trottier, Clarke, Bossy, etc., but that won't prevent it from being debated into eternity.
93/94- 9th Points, 7th Assists
94/95- 1st Points, 2nd Goals, 7th Assists
95/96- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
96/97- 6th Points, 6th Goals (63 games)
97/98- 1st Points, 9th Goals, 1st Assists
98/99- 1st Points, 2nd Goals, 1st Assists
99/00- 1st Points, 4th Goals, 3rd Assists (63 games)
00/01- 1st Points, 3rd Goals, 1st Assists
01/02- 5th Points, 9th Assists
05/06- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
06/07- currently 1st Points, 1st Assists
Jagr at even strength
93/94- 2nd Points, 2nd Assists
94/95- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 2nd Assists
95/96- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
96/97- 4th Points
97/98- 2nd Points, 5th Goals, 3rd Assists
98/99- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
99/00- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
00/01- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
01/02- 4th Assists
05/06- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
I'd go with Dominic, heck, I'd rank him the 7th best player to ever play the game.
Separate names with a comma.