Ivan Provorov vs. Zach Werenski

[Tkachuk4MVP]

So you would take Burns over another Vlasic? I wouldn't.

Don't think Provorov will be there, but he would be my pick.

Vlasic's a top-5 defensive D-man, while Burns is probably in the 6-10 range of offensive defensemen.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

That's, uh, bold.

I know. heh

 

[Juxtaposer]

I know. heh

We'll see.




Folks, you need to stop with the player comparisons. Provorov is not Vlasic and Werenski is not Burns. Don't make your decision based on this.

 

[hockeyball]

We'll see.




Folks, you need to stop with the player comparisons. Provorov is not Vlasic and Werenski is not Burns. Don't make your decision based on this.

Obviously.

Provorov is clearly Weber, and Werenski is Letang.

 

[spintops]

Vlasic's a top-5 defensive D-man, while Burns is probably in the 6-10 range of offensive defensemen.

Burns was 2nd in points for defensemen this year. Even if he is a few rankings below what Vlasic is at playing D, it's a weak argument.

We'll see.


Folks, you need to stop with the player comparisons. Provorov is not Vlasic and Werenski is not Burns. Don't make your decision based on this.

Yea I wasn't saying that, I just think that the fan base is acting like we could get by with Burns level defenders because they score so much.

I think our defense in the defensive zone was a bigger hole this year then in the offensive zone. With gave up the 7th most goals in the league, and I think Vlasic playing at his best is the most valuable player on the team (I know irrelevant to this draft pick debate)

 

[hockeyball]

Burns was 2nd in points for defensemen this year. Even if he is a few rankings below what Vlasic is at playing D, it's a weak argument.



Yea I wasn't saying that, I just think that the fan base is acting like we could get by with Burns level defenders because they score so much.

I think our defense in the defensive zone was a bigger hole this year then in the offensive zone. With gave up the 7th most goals in the league, and I think Vlasic playing at his best is the most valuable player on the team (I know irrelevant to this draft pick debate)

I don't think our defensive issues had much to do with personnel. We had MUCH better personnel then quite a few teams who were statistically much better than us defensively. There was a system problem, and if the entire group was playing team defense even half decently we would have had a very different season. Frankly, either McLellan wasn't even trying or the team wasn't paying attention because the team D was abysmal. Even Vlasic can't fix that.

 

[spintops]

I don't think our defensive issues had much to do with personnel. We had MUCH better personnel then quite a few teams who were statistically much better than us defensively. There was a system problem, and if the entire group was playing team defense even half decently we would have had a very different season. Frankly, either McLellan wasn't even trying or the team wasn't paying attention because the team D was abysmal. Even Vlasic can't fix that.

I agree, some bad teams gave up less goals. We were 7th worst in the league in Goals against. Our goalies weren't elite, but they were only a fraction of the problem.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Burns was 2nd in points for defensemen this year. Even if he is a few rankings below what Vlasic is at playing D, it's a weak argument.

Vlasic is a step above Burns relative to his peers, so I don't think it's a weak argument.

Yea I wasn't saying that, I just think that the fan base is acting like we could get by with Burns level defenders because they score so much.

I think our defense in the defensive zone was a bigger hole this year then in the offensive zone. With gave up the 7th most goals in the league, and I think Vlasic playing at his best is the most valuable player on the team (I know irrelevant to this draft pick debate)

Part of the reason our defense was so bad was because Burns was pretty much the only one who could skate the puck out of the zone with any regularity, thus we were constantly hemmed in our own zone and our transition game was terrible. This isn't 1999, the big, slow, hard-hitting defenseman with great pokechecking ability that Don Cherry loves so much aren't as valuable as mobile defensemen that can move the puck. The term "Defensive defenseman" is slowly becoming code for "defenseman who can't get the puck out his own zone." I'm not saying you build a team with six purely offensive defensemen, but individually I think they're more valuable.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I would agree that Vlasic is as good defensively as Burns is offensively (for simplicity's sake). The difference is that Vlasic is below average offensively and Burns is replacement level defensively.

 

[hohosaregood]

Part of the reason our defense was so bad was because Burns was pretty much the only one who could skate the puck out of the zone with any regularity, thus we were constantly hemmed in our own zone and our transition game was terrible. This isn't 1999, the big, slow, hard-hitting defenseman with great pokechecking ability that Don Cherry loves so much aren't as valuable as mobile defensemen that can move the puck. The term "Defensive defenseman" is slowly becoming code for "defenseman who can't get the puck out his own zone." I'm not saying you build a team with six purely offensive defensemen, but individually I think they're more valuable.

It's not so much that Burns is the only one, because Braun, Dillon, and Vlasic are all very capable skaters, and Dillon did it quite often when he first got here. It's more that Burns is the only one given the freedom to even attempt to do so on a regular basis and even then he doesn't do it very much.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

I would agree that Vlasic is as good defensively as Burns is offensively (for simplicity's sake). The difference is that Vlasic is below average offensively and Burns is replacement level defensively.

Good point.

It's not so much that Burns is the only one, because Braun, Dillon, and Vlasic are all very capable skaters, and Dillon did it quite often when he first got here. It's more that Burns is the only one given the freedom to even attempt to do so on a regular basis and even then he doesn't do it very much.

Also true. I should have clarified that he was the only one doing it, not the only one with the ability to do it.

 

[sr228]

.
Part of the reason our defense was so bad was because Burns was pretty much the only one who could skate the puck out of the zone with any regularity, thus we were constantly hemmed in our own zone and our transition game was terrible. This isn't 1999, the big, slow, hard-hitting defenseman with great pokechecking ability that Don Cherry loves so much aren't as valuable as mobile defensemen that can move the puck. The term "Defensive defenseman" is slowly becoming code for "defenseman who can't get the puck out his own zone." I'm not saying you build a team with six purely offensive defensemen, but individually I think they're more valuable.

I believe this was a system / strategy thing more than a personnel thing as all of Dillon, Vlasic and Braun are all more than capable of using their legs to move the puck, Mueller was also quite good at that in Juniors.

The Sharks just didn't seem to like to have their d-men skate the puck out very often.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I believe this was a system / strategy thing more than a personnel thing as all of Dillon, Vlasic and Braun are all more than capable of using their legs to move the puck, Mueller was also quite good at that in Juniors.

The Sharks just didn't seem to like to have their d-men skate the puck out very often.

Todd's handling of the neutral zone, both the excessive dump and chase and the insistence on having forwards start the breakouts, is the main thing I dislike about him.

 

[sr228]

Todd's handling of the neutral zone, both the excessive dump and chase and the insistence on having forwards start the breakouts, is the main thing I dislike about him.

Yep, that and his love of vets & grit but most coaches seem have those issue.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Yep, that and his love of vets & grit but most coaches seem have those issue.

Yeah, you aren't going to find a coach that doesn't. Even Quenneville, whom everyone lauds as a great coach, dresses Desjardins over Teravainen in the playoffs. Imagine how we'd riot if Brown or whoever dressed over Hertl! Hitchcock healthy scratched Tarasenko in the playoffs, same with Sutter and Toffoli, etc.

 

[Patty Ice]

So you think a player named Ivan might be terrible?

Sacto may have missed it but I saw what you did there.

 

[SactoShark]

Sacto may have missed it but I saw what you did there.

wow. i'm a little slow today.