Blue Jays Discussion: It's the "Get it Done" league, and Chris Colabello gets it done.

[BertCorbeau]

Last one was full .. Continue

Click to read more...

 

[KapG]

Met Greg Zaun at my gym today. Just talked to him very briefly but he seemed like a nice guy.

 

[Eyedea]

Just to piggyback off of the whole closer debate, the point is that Papelbon's impact is not worth the value that he possesses as an "elite closer". Acquire good relief options and your bullpen will (or rather should) be good. It's as simple as that.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Just to piggyback off of the whole closer debate, the point is that Papelbon's impact is not worth the value that he possesses as an "elite closer". Acquire good relief options and your bullpen will (or rather should) be good. It's as simple as that.

I enjoy the KC comparison, which then oddly transitions into Papelbon. Taking a bullpen, which was predominantly developed internally on one line, then implying that acquiring that a $13M closer would result in similar success.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Yea, but the Jays have converted 6 out of 13 save opportunities this year. Meanwhile, Papelbon is 11/11 this season.

You do realize you can blow a save in the 6th, 7th, 8th, or any inning really. The Jays are 6 out of 13 because they blow a lot of saves early, I can really only remember 1 time we blew a save in the 9th. So your point makes no sense since you were trying to refute someone who said we're blowing games early and you refernce a stat that can and is affected by blowing games early

 

[Looney Toonies]

Was at the game yesterday in section 119 just above the Chi Sox dugout. Russell Martin seems like an awesome guy. EE fouled a ball off that hit the back stop and rolled to him in the on deck circle. He grabbed the ball and threw it to a fan who made a horrible attempt of catching the ball. Everyone booed and laughed at the poor guy. 2 Pitches later EE did the same thing. Russell got the fans attention and gave him a second opportunity (soft underhand toss.) The fan caught it, Russell threw his hands in the air and the place erupted. It was pretty awesome to see Russell feel bad for the dude.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Just checked, we've blown 1 save in the 9th this year. So had we spent 13 million dollars on a perfect closer we'd be 22-25 instead of 21-26, money well spent. Don't pretend those 7 losses all become 7 wins because we'd have blown most of them before the 9th even got here.

 

[theaub]

Seems that a lot of people who are arguing for a "closer" are really arguing more for another good bullpen arm, and I fully support the latter.

 

[Shimso]

Was at the game yesterday in section 119 just above the Chi Sox dugout. Russell Martin seems like an awesome guy. EE fouled a ball off that hit the back stop and rolled to him in the on deck circle. He grabbed the ball and threw it to a fan who made a horrible attempt of catching the ball. Everyone booed and laughed at the poor guy. 2 Pitches later EE did the same thing. Russell got the fans attention and gave him a second opportunity (soft underhand toss.) The fan caught it, Russell threw his hands in the air and the place erupted. It was pretty awesome to see Russell feel bad for the dude.

I wasn't initially a fan of him because of him skipping out on Team Canada for the WBC, but I've changed on that; he seems like a classy guy.

 

[Discoverer]

You do realize you can blow a save in the 6th, 7th, 8th, or any inning really. The Jays are 6 out of 13 because they blow a lot of saves early, I can really only remember 1 time we blew a save in the 9th. So your point makes no sense since you were trying to refute someone who said we're blowing games early and you refernce a stat that can and is affected by blowing games early

Yep. Here are the Jays blown saves this year:

April 8, Cecil, 8th inning
April 18, Castro, 9th inning - Jays won the game anyway
April 25, Castro, 8th inning, two outs
April 27, Osuna, 8th inning
May 14, Loup, 7th inning
May 16, Hendriks, 6th inning
May 20, Delabar, 7th inning

The bolded game may have been impacted by having a Proven Closer on the roster. While it was the 8th inning, there were two outs and trouble was brewing, so the closer would normally be brought in there. The only other game where a closer would have been used is April 18, where Castro blew it and the Jays won anyway.

So having Papelbon may have contributed to one additional win, assuming he saves that game and doesn't allow a run in any other close games.

Obviously I advocate improving the bullpen (even though it's been pretty solid overall). But the need for a Proven Closer is vastly overstated.

 

[Discoverer]

Just checked, we've blown 1 save in the 9th this year. So had we spent 13 million dollars on a perfect closer we'd be 22-25 instead of 21-26, money well spent. Don't pretend those 7 losses all become 7 wins because we'd have blown most of them before the 9th even got here.

I just posted a bunch of stuff about this, but I might as well say it again here for emphasis: the Jays actually won the only game they blew in the ninth this year.

 

[Canada4Gold]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLY7dH25nNQ

From Hoff's start last week. Camera angle isn't great. He goes again tonight like TT said in the last thread

 

[Canada4Gold]

I just posted a bunch of stuff about this, but I might as well say it again here for emphasis: the Jays actually won the only game they blew in the ninth this year.

I forgot to even check for that

Sure a good arm could help the pen for sure, my point was to refute Kurtz' post about look at all the blown saves we have, we need a closer when the closer wouldn't have had an impact on most of those games.

 

[Looney Toonies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLY7dH25nNQ

From Hoff's start last week. Camera angle isn't great. He goes again tonight like TT said in the last thread

Seems to have a noticeably slower delivery, and arm angle on the Curve. I'm not a huge baseball guy so I could be wrong, but am I on to something?

 

[Longshot]

Just checked, we've blown 1 save in the 9th this year. So had we spent 13 million dollars on a perfect closer we'd be 22-25 instead of 21-26, money well spent. Don't pretend those 7 losses all become 7 wins because we'd have blown most of them before the 9th even got here.

They wouldn't have spent the full $13 million, just a quarter of it...

 

[Discoverer]

I forgot to even check for that

Sure a good arm could help the pen for sure, my point was to refute Kurtz' post about look at all the blown saves we have, we need a closer when the closer wouldn't have had an impact on most of those games.

Oh I know, I completely agree. I was just emphasizing your point. Even saying the Jays have only blown one game in the ninth is overstating the impact a closer would have made.

 

[Longshot]

It's interesting watching this debate.

It never ceases to amaze me how casual fans look to place blame for the team's problems everywhere, but where it belongs.

I don't get it, but I find it amusing.

After seeing the bullpen stats I'm curious. Does anybody have a chart showing the number of times the starters gave the team no chance to win?

We saw when and how the bullpen blown saves occurred, it would be cool to see how many times the starters were bombed out of the game.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Seems to have a noticeably slower delivery, and arm angle on the Curve. I'm not a huge baseball guy so I could be wrong, but am I on to something?

Every pitcher will have a slight difference in delivery depending on the pitch. Where you don't want to see the pronounced change or difference is from fastball to change up or fastball to splitter.

Hoffman's is not bad enough to be an issue in that sense. The minor league staff is probably more concerned with repeatability.

 

[BertCorbeau]

The quality of the bullpen can also correlate with the quality of the starters ... Overuse-age was prevalent earlier in the season - lately though better starts have helped the bullpen out.

Two complete games by Dickey and Hutch in the last 5 days do wonders for the pen.

Despite that the pen is solid ... I'm not opposed to adding another arm but I'd rather look to get another good starter that can eating quality innings

 

[Longshot]

Despite that the pen is solid ... I'm not opposed to adding another arm but I'd rather look to get another good starter that can eating quality innings

I'm of the same mind. Estrada has done a nice job in the rotation, but his history shows he is more effective out of the bullpen. If they get someone to replace him in the rotation and move Estrada back to the pen it could solidify the entire operation.

And, I think they're going to need a second effective leftie out of the pen, if Cecil is going to carry on as the closer. Loup has had ups and downs this year and it would be nice to get a leftie for the role Cecil filled last year.

CP: Cecil
RH late guy: Osuman
LH late guy: Loup
RH - Delebar
LH - New guy
Long - Estrada
Long - Hendriks

 

[GoonieFace]

There is one major problem with this offence:

How many times have the Jays came from behind to win a game this year? I would guess not many, I cant remember the last time they rallied in the 8th or 9th inning to win a game.

 

[Eyedea]

Seems to have a noticeably slower delivery, and arm angle on the Curve. I'm not a huge baseball guy so I could be wrong, but am I on to something?

He was tipping his curve at 0:38. It wasn't really the delivery, but the higher arm angle. Some pitchers purposefully do that, I don't know about Hoffman, but he seems cocky enough to do something like that and say "try and hit this". Velo is there for him it's all about refinement in mechanics and delivery right now.

 

[Longshot]

There is one major problem with this offence:

How many times have the Jays came from behind to win a game this year? I would guess not many, I cant remember the last time they rallied in the 8th or 9th inning to win a game.

Assuming that's a problem, which I'm not sure about - since I don't have any data - I'm not sure how management is supposed to rectify that issue.

It's not like they can go shopping for a couple of hitters that specialize in 8th and 9th inning rallies.

The only way to mitigate that concern is to assemble a deep and talented roster with good hitters 1-9, that is capable of scoring at any time in the game. I think the Jays have done that.

Quite frankly, I think it's an issue that will go away. So far, the Jays have had the best offense in the league. If that trend continues, they will eventually have games they rally to win late, because they're too good not to have that happen.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

There is one major problem with this offence:

How many times have the Jays came from behind to win a game this year? I would guess not many, I cant remember the last time they rallied in the 8th or 9th inning to win a game.

Considering that every other team has a door slamming bullpen, it's very difficult to score runs in the 8th and 9th.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Jays minor league pitching is set up nicely like an MLB rotation

Today we have our Ace in Hoffman going for Dunedin, then our #2 goes tomorrow, Norris for Buffalo, followed by our solid #3 Thursday Boyd for NH. Then finally we have 2 guys who are pitching at higher levels for their age in Castro Friday for Buffalo, and SRF Saturday for Lansing.

Then rinse and repeat :p