Is Timmins that good?

[Cookie007]

So I just finished reading this article recaping Timmins' drafting, http://habsforum.wordpress.com/

2003
1st Round Pick, (10th Overall) Andrei Kostitsyn
Players that were still available: Jeff Carter, Dustin Brown, Brent Seabrook, Zach Parise, Ryan Getzlaf, Ryan Kesler, Mike Richards, Corey Perry
2nd Round Pick, (40th Overall) Cory Urquhart
Players that were still available: Patrice Bergeron, Shea Weber, David Backes

2006
1st Round Pick, (20th Overall) David Fischer
Players that were still available: Claude Giroux, Semyon Varlamov, Patrik Berglund, Nick Foligno
2nd Round Pick, (49rd Overall) Ben Maxwell
Players that were still available: Milan Lucic, Artem Anisimov, Brad Marchand, Cal Clutterbuck

all I can say is wow... 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009 were all disasters. He did make up for it with 2007 but to see all the guys we could have got in those years, getzlaf/perry/lucic/o'reilly/giroux, if we only landed just 1 of those guy we might've hung a 25th* stanley cup banner with saku raising the cup!

must admit, I don't get why everyone here gives Timmins a free pass

Click to read more...

 

[Price is Wright]

Because Timmins gets more games out of draft picks than any other team and he can find good picks in the lower rounds. Other teams bank on Top 90 and then the rest of their picks are worthless. Montreal finds valuable players in rounds five and later.

His picks in the Top 60 have been overall weak, sure, but the Pacioretty's, Subban's and Price's make up for it.

Also nobody should expect perfection from draft scouts. If a scout gets two NHLers a year, he's elite.

 

[SquiddFX]

One word: Hindsight.

Also how does a team hang up another #24 Stanely cup banner?

 

[3 Minute Minor]

There was one of these threads not too long ago.

Prepare to be attacked by an angry mob of Habs fans.

 

[malton]

It's easy to cherry pick the players that were not selected. It's a lot better to take the overall body of his work and then compare it to others.

If you do that you will realize that he is clearly one of the best.

 

[hototogisu]

It's easy to cherry pick the players that were not selected. It's a lot better to take the overall body of his work and then compare it to others.

If you do that you will realize that he is clearly one of the best.

Pretty much. 30 teams passed on Shea Weber. 30 teams passed on David Backes. 20+ passed on Giroux, Perry, etc. It's unfair to play the "why didn't Timmins get these guys" game when you can ask the exact same question of every NHL team in a given draft year.

I mean, yeah, Anaheim got Perry late and that's awesome. But you can immediately turn around and ask Anaheim why they passed on P.K. Subban to draft Eric Tangradi. That's the nature of drafting, nobody's perfect all the time.

 

[GREMLIN]

If he's not the best head scout in the league he's pretty darn close, Its so easy to critic a draft in hindsight.

Not even worth discussing, also I think its fair to say Scherbak and Mccarron will really improve his record for 1st rounders, both late 1sts.

He's the best IMO, the one member in our management group I have complete faith in.

 

[Malmo]

You have to look further than the first round. 2003 also got O'Byrne and Halak who had decent careers. In 2004, he drafted Emelin, Grabovski and Streit in later rounds.

 

[Devourers]

If I'm mainly judging based on when I feel he had full control (Bergevin era) so far I feel he's been excellent. If I'm judging Gainey era, he was still very good but just lacking in some areas.

I do believe he's that good, yes. We'll never know who he would have wanted or who he would have taken had it not been for the Gainey era staff, but what we do know is lately the picks hes been making have been solid in early developmental stages.

I also think TT improved as years progressed, so he's probably twice the talent analyzer he was in his Gainey days. I'm definitely going to say he is that good.

Also he can pick 10 more David Fischer's in the first round for all I care if he keeps picking Subban's in the 2nd round, Gallagher's in the 5th, Pacioretty's when he has late 1st's, etc.

You have to look further than the first round. 2003 also got O'Byrne and Halak who had decent careers. In 2004, he drafted Emelin, Grabovski and Streit in later rounds.

Yeah and when you think about it, we're talking about a top 4 d-man, a top 6 player and a top pairing offensive d-man, all in later rounds.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

He screwed up some first rounds in his early years, but he made up for it the later rounds. And lately he's done quite a good job. Hudon, Ghetto, DLR, Lehkonen, Scherbak, McCarron, Galchenyuk in just 3 years..

The 4-5 years of solid drafting + the 2007 draft and Price will be very evident soon. Similar to how Boston, Chicago, LA had 3-4 strong drafts between 03-07 and ended up winning because of those drafts...

 

[Habsfan2731]

He said in an interview that when he got the phone call of McDonagh being in the Gomez trade, he felt like he'd have been punched in the stomach, he's the best director of scouting in the NHL, his track record speaks for itself, everyone has a few misses but consider the work he has done, TT & MB have given Montreal one of the deepest prospect pools in the league.

 

[Apoplectic Habs Fan]

Still much more concerned about Montreals pro development than amateur scouting.

More often than not players stagnate when they hit Montreal.

 

[Rapala]

Still hurting from some of those missed opportunities...
It's all well and nice to say thirty clubs missed out on the same players but the fact remains we haven't converted any of those earlier picks into stars.

 

[Monctonscout]

So I just finished reading this article recaping Timmins' drafting, http://habsforum.wordpress.com/



all I can say is wow... 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009 were all disasters. He did make up for it with 2007 but to see all the guys we could have got in those years, getzlaf/perry/lucic/o'reilly/giroux, if we only landed just 1 of those guy we might've hung a 25th* stanley cup banner with saku raising the cup!

must admit, I don't get why everyone here gives Timmins a free pass

If you measure it that way, ever NHL head scout is terrible. Show me any head scout and I can find players he missed just like you did...

You can make a list of all stars that every head scout has missed, it's not an exact science, but Timmins has more "hits" than just about any head scout in the NHL.

The part a lot of non-hardcore fans don't get about the NHL draft is that you are dealing with players 3-4-5-6 years from the final product. So there is a lot of skill involved in drafting, but also luck and circumstances...where a kid plays, if he gets hurt and how he responds to obstacles are the part that is unknown.

 

[Hawkeye71980]

Exactly. Developement is more important han drafting nowadays. Because almost any high pick gets chnce inthe NHL now within like 1 or 2 yrs, the thing is they have to be able to develope them once thy get to the pro level. That's where the Habs were lacking for yrs and has now improved. Someone like Gallagher 5 yrs ago would have been ignored because of his size and lack of "high end skill" But he has woked hard and earned a spot. Same with Subban, he would have been ignored because of his defensive mistakes, but now that he's given a chance he's already won a Norris..lol

 

[Hawkeye71980]

Also you can't judge a GM by their misses. 20 some other teams missed those guys as well. You judge a GM by their hits. and Timmins has had hits more than 90% of the teamsout there, especially for a team that almost never gets high picks.

 

[Price My Man Crush]

Hey OP, you need to do this with every other team to see if he's good or not.

Come back when it's done. There are 28 other teams that decided to not take Giroux/Getzlaf/Perry/Carter/whoever.

 

[LaP]

His picks in the Top 60 have been overall weak, sure, but the Pacioretty's, Subban's and Price's make up for it.

Let's not forget McDo. Timmins did not trade him.

 

[LaP]

I don't get why people criticize Timmins.

With McDo in the lineup along with Galchenyuk at center we would be very close to be a cup contender in the next couple of years. Also i'm almost sure Leblanc was not his choice.

The big mistake he did was AK instead of Carter. Back then everyone i was watching the draft with wanted us to pick Carter. He was the obvious choice.

 

[CHarlie]

I don't get why people criticize Timmins.

With McDo in the lineup along with Galchenyuk at center we would be very close to be a cup contender in the next couple of years. Also i'm almost sure Leblanc was not his choice.

Yes lets hope the draft is never held in Montreal again!!!

 

[Price is Wright]

Leblanc was his choice (he said Kreider was his next choice if Leblanc went earlier). Same to Fischer. Same to Chipchura. Same to McCarron. Same to Maxwell.

He isn't perfect, nor is he expected to be. He's expected to find players who develop more often than players who do not. Which he does. Better than anyone else in the league.

 

[Shutdown]

Leblanc was his choice (he said Kreider was his next choice if Leblanc went earlier). Same to Fischer. Same to Chipchura. Same to McCarron. Same to Maxwell.

He isn't perfect, nor is he expected to be. He's expected to find players who develop more often than players who do not. Which he does. Better than anyone else in the league.

Hope you don't have McCarron's name there because you consider him a bust already.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I don't get why people criticize Timmins.

With McDo in the lineup along with Galchenyuk at center we would be very close to be a cup contender in the next couple of years. Also i'm almost sure Leblanc was not his choice.

The big mistake he did was AK instead of Carter. Back then everyone i was watching the draft with wanted us to pick Carter. He was the obvious choice.

He said it was really close between AK and Getzlaf at the time. But he chose based on pure skill and it's hard to argue that AK wasn't one of the most skilled players of the draft. His skillset with that bullish frame is just so rare to see. Unfortunately, for one reason or another it didn't work out. But at 10th overall it's hard to pass on a guy with that skillset.

 

[Souffle]

I don't get why people criticize Timmins.

With McDo in the lineup along with Galchenyuk at center we would be very close to be a cup contender in the next couple of years. Also i'm almost sure Leblanc was not his choice.

The big mistake he did was AK instead of Carter. Back then everyone i was watching the draft with wanted us to pick Carter. He was the obvious choice.

I remember him saying later that both AK and Urqhart were Savard picks. That was Gainey's first draft, but Savard was still around, and he basically ran it. I recall that Timmins liked both Carter and Getzlaf.

But I don't think I've ever read anything reputable that suggests he didn't like Leblanc as a prospect and that there was some sort of backroom pressure to take him higher than he should have gone. I also understand that Fischer was ultimately his call as chief amateur scout.

For a while it seemed that there was a bit of an emphasis on skill above all else, but that may have been an organizational philosophy. Similarly, for a few years there was very little drafting from certain leagues/countries, but that may have been an organizational resource issue. Looking back now, he's taken all kinds of players from all kinds of leagues.

Anyway, he's done well overall. Really can't complain.

 

[Cookie007]

I remember him saying later that both AK and Urqhart were Savard picks. That was Gainey's first draft, but Savard was still around, and he basically ran it. I recall that Timmins liked both Carter and Getzlaf.

That's kinda easy to say now considering Savard is no longer relevant in the NHL. Sure just blame it on someone else.

Though I agree, Timmins is definitely in the top tier of scouts (whoever ran NJ and Detroit in the 90s probably the best).