Is The Pens Model Really That Bad?

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Many many thoughts on this. I think most have hit the high points. I'll just point out a few things.

Overall I think the 3C model isn't a bad one to run. Two extremely good offensive lines/centers and a great shutdown C who can control play and score. Pittsburgh could have been successful with that (more so than what they were) had 3 things happened. One if the players who had the higher contracts perform up to those contracts. Two if they'd done a much better job using their young players. Their strength was on their blueline, but they did a piss poor job using those assets. High lighted by choosing to sign Scuderi to an expensive contract (relative to what he could provide vs what a young guy like Despres could have done) vs signing McArthur for the same price (was rumored to have had interest before we used our cap on RS). And lastly, by having done a piss poor job at drafting (and then drafting very D heavy).

You look at Chicago specifically as they're likely the closest example to Pittsburgh with their high contracts, and the difference is very noticeable. Chicago can afford to lose Sharp this summer because they have a multitude of young cheap guys who will be able to cover at least a chunk of his offense. Pittsburgh has 3 decent F prospects and 2 of those were drafted in the last 2 years while the 3rd (Bennett) is injury prone and has struggled. But it goes beyond top 6 talent. You look at just their forwards in general, and we haven't had ANY success drafting players to play any meaningful role even in the bottom 6. Which means we've overpaid for FAs which limits our ability to spend on top 6 wingers.

Something to be leery of, is I see a similar situation with Edmonton in terms of their drafting and developing. No offense to Gordon... but Edmonton shouldn't have had to overpay for a #3/4C. This will be key going forward for Edmonton to be able to afford the skill they have - especially if they all come close to their potential. Those guys getting paid have to perform, and everyone else has to be cheap. And the easiest way to get cheap talent is to draft it.
 

Riptide

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McDavid > Crosby
RNH << Malkin
Draisaitl >> Staal

An obvious downgrade at 2C but it's made up for at 3C IMO. The biggest thing is hoping that Connor is more like Sid in leaving $ on the table than Malkin. If he does that it ensures our team being more competitive and keeping a guy like Leon in the 3 spot.

I know this isn't going to be popular... but seeing how 2 of those > haven't played or done anything at the NHL level yet... it's kind of hard to take that seriously. McDavid might be as good as Crosby - but we're likely going to have to wait a few years to find out. But this one I can at least somewhat understand.

Draisaitl might be as good as Staal. He could even turn out better - although I have a hard time understanding how one can say this at this time, considering that Staal is bigger, heavier and was just as successful in juniors.
 

JBear

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Mar 26, 2014
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I know this isn't going to be popular... but seeing how 2 of those > haven't played or done anything at the NHL level yet... it's kind of hard to take that seriously. McDavid might be as good as Crosby - but we're likely going to have to wait a few years to find out. But this one I can at least somewhat understand.

Draisaitl might be as good as Staal. He could even turn out better - although I have a hard time understanding how one can say this at this time, considering that Staal is bigger, heavier and was just as successful in juniors.

Even if it were all Penguin Centres > Edmonton Centres, the thing to remember is that their cap hits won't be as much which gives Edmonton potentially more depth on the top two lines.
 

Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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I know this isn't going to be popular... but seeing how 2 of those > haven't played or done anything at the NHL level yet... it's kind of hard to take that seriously. McDavid might be as good as Crosby - but we're likely going to have to wait a few years to find out. But this one I can at least somewhat understand.

Draisaitl might be as good as Staal. He could even turn out better - although I have a hard time understanding how one can say this at this time, considering that Staal is bigger, heavier and was just as successful in juniors.

"Just as successful in juniors" is kinda stretching it.

Draisaitl had 106 points in his draft year (1.64 ppg) versus Staal with 68 points (1 ppg).

Honestly I think the Pens kinda got suckered in by the "Staal" last name. Eric had just won the Stanley Cup with a 100 point season so anything with the name "Staal" attached to it was probably going to be a bit overhyped. If they had taken Toews instead, they would be for sure a dynasty.
 
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Tarus

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Jun 22, 2006
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Three times. 09/10 when we lost against Montreal. 12/13 when we embarrassed ourselves against Boston and last year (13/14) when we lost to the Rangers. We also had a year when we were missing both Crosby and Malkin (10/11).

Losing in the 2nd round doesn't qualify as getting past the second round, so they've only made it to the conference finals once in those 6 years.

They've still been relatively successful, I agree with you on that point. It's just not the type of success people expect of a team that has the best center in the league, backed by a guy who is a first line center in his own right.
 

Riptide

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thank you . Malkin isn't a generational talent. he's one the top Cs of his generation, but there are a handful of guys on his level. Sure, he won a Hart and an Art Ross, but so did Marty St. Louis. So did the Sedins.

Crosby was above everyone else, thus, he is generational.

Malkin is 12th in NHL history for points per game production. With only Crosby (5th) and Forsberg (8th) ahead of whom who have played in the last 15 years. Other than Jagr (17th) and Ovie (15th), the next active player on that list is Backstrom (57th), Thornton and Datsyuk (64/65). He's very much a generational player.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Even if it were all Penguin Centres > Edmonton Centres, the thing to remember is that their cap hits won't be as much which gives Edmonton potentially more depth on the top two lines.

Agreed. Edmonton just having Hall and Eberle gives them significantly more depth than Pittsburgh ever had up front other than 12/13 when we had Ignila, Neal and company.
 

Bank Shot

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Jan 18, 2006
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"Just as successful in juniors" is kinda stretching it.

Draisaitl had 106 points in his draft year (1.64 ppg) versus Staal with 68 points (1 ppg).

Honestly I think the Pens kinda got suckered in by the "Staal" last name. Eric had just won the Stanley Cup with a 100 point season so anything with the name "Staal" attached to it was probably going to be a bit overhyped. If they had taken Toews instead, they would be for sure a dynasty.

Be that as it may, Jordan Stasl'a first season in the NHL was just miles and miles beyond was Leon accomplished.
.
Draosaitl may turn out as well or better than Staal but he's starting in a big hole.
 

Up the Irons

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Mar 9, 2008
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"Just as successful in juniors" is kinda stretching it.

Draisaitl had 106 points in his draft year (1.64 ppg) versus Staal with 68 points (1 ppg).

Honestly I think the Pens kinda got suckered in by the "Staal" last name. Eric had just won the Stanley Cup with a 100 point season so anything with the name "Staal" attached to it was probably going to be a bit overhyped. If they had taken Toews instead, they would be for sure a dynasty.

Yikes!!! Did they ever blow it. And they took Fleury in 2003, when there were a dozen better than picks then that.
 

Up the Irons

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Malkin is 12th in NHL history for points per game production. With only Crosby (5th) and Forsberg (8th) ahead of whom who have played in the last 15 years. Other than Jagr (17th) and Ovie (15th), the next active player on that list is Backstrom (57th), Thornton and Datsyuk (64/65). He's very much a generational player.

ok. thanx. I suppose I term generational as 'the clear best at his position of his generation' (or at least of a decade). Malkin is not the clear best. He is up there, but not the best. You might say his skill level is generational, but so was Kovalev's. To be generational, you need to do more. You need to be 'THE best'.

IMHO, Malkin is on the level of a Trottier, a Federov, a Sakic, an Yzerman, and I would still put him below Messier and definitely below Jagr. He's a Slam dunk, first ballet hall of famer, but not generational, because he was never 'the best'.

Generational talents are guys like 10, 99, 66, 68, 87. Basically, in the last 40 years, those are the only generational talents we've seen at forward.
 
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Eirhead*

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The Oilers got like 3 years here where we'll have some of the strongest depth at forward in the league. The downside is that we're going to be really young. But a lot of our guys (Hall, Eberle, Nuge, Yak) are already far enough along, that I expect us to be very competitive very shortly.

Honestly, it feels like it's a perfect storm. Just add that defensive depth and grit that MacT was incapable of doing to make us a solid 5on5 hockey team and regular season success should quickly translate into post-season success. After 3 years we're going to have a difficult time managing the cap... hopefully the economy booms, the cap skyrockets, and we can get much of this ensemble on to contracts comparable to the 6mil club.
 
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Beerfish

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Apr 14, 2007
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No I don't like the Penguin model because imo they have underachieved with the overall talent pool they have had. It's a very rough thing to do having the balls and discipline to make changes to a team that has won the cup but imo you have to do so to keep giving yourself a chance to win more.

You can keep yourself not just playoff bound but a true contend if you have the guts to move pieces while they are still high end and very desireable.
 

Eirhead*

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I just hope that in a couple years "The Oilers Model" will be a thing... and then hockey fans will scoff at the discussion since it takes 10 years of suck, and lots of lottery luck as a prerequisite.
 

Perfect_Drug

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Mar 24, 2006
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I just hope that in a couple years "The Oilers Model" will be a thing... and then hockey fans will scoff at the discussion since it takes 10 years of suck, and lots of lottery luck as a prerequisite.

Chicago Model
Out of the playoffs 9 out of 10 years from 1998-2008

Pittsburgh's Draft Position leading up to their first cup run:
1st Overall Pick
2nd Overall Pick
2nd Overall Pick
1st Overall Pick
5th Overall Pick

Quebec Nordiques Draft Position leading up to their Cup win (Colorado)
12th Overall Pick
10th Overall Pick
4th Overall Pick
1st Overall Pick
1st Overall Pick
1st Overall Pick
3rd Overall Pick
9th Overall Pick
 

sportsdynasty

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Mar 31, 2011
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Here's the issue in trying to replicate the Pens model. Even if mcdavid becomes the greatest player in the nhl, that's still just one generational talent. The Penguins had two. It wasn't Sidney Crosby that was the best player in th world for their cup win. It was Evgeni Malkin. It's easier to cover up a lack of depth when you've got two mcdavid than it is if you have just one.

What is your definition of "generational" talent? Malkin has only had a couple of stellar seasons, I wouldn't put him close to the generational category. At his current cap hit, I would not want Malkin on the Oilers.

Fernando Pisani was the best
player in the world during the 06 cup run. I wouldn't say he or Malkin are generational talents.

The most important ingredient the Oilers are lacking is a Duncan Keith on defense.
 

ThePhoenixx

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Aug 7, 2005
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Right now I'm watching Anaheim run with two elite players, and then a depth group of forwards.

Hall and McD could be a lot like Perry / Getzlaf, and could probably carry a team in a similar way.

It makes me wonder if you can safely deal away other forward talent to shore up the D / G and run the 'Anaheim model'?

The flaw I see to Pittsburgh is that with so much centre talent, you can't play them all together effectively when the game demands it. IE, when Anaheim rolls out Perry and Getzlaf with two minutes left, they mesh well, each playing a natural position.

Same idea with d-men. It's handy to have an elite RH and an elite LH so that you can mix and match.

Kesler is still Elite. That is why they are winning. Chicago has nobody at C after Toews.
 

Bryanbryoil

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Sep 13, 2004
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I know this isn't going to be popular... but seeing how 2 of those > haven't played or done anything at the NHL level yet... it's kind of hard to take that seriously. McDavid might be as good as Crosby - but we're likely going to have to wait a few years to find out. But this one I can at least somewhat understand.

Draisaitl might be as good as Staal. He could even turn out better - although I have a hard time understanding how one can say this at this time, considering that Staal is bigger, heavier and was just as successful in juniors.

It seems like the biggest disagreement is on the Draisaitl Vs. Staal component of my post. IMO Draisaitl has a lot higher offensive upside than Staal does/did. Leon is tracking to be a good defensive center like Staal is/was as well. I see Leon being a tier above Staal because of the difference in their offensive abilities. Coutureir FWIW was a guy that I wasn't high on because I felt that he had a similar offensive upside to Staal. I see a much better player in Draisaitl than I did in either of those guys.

IMO Leon could well develop into a legit 1C in his own rite if he can improve his acceleration, I never saw that in Staal.
 

Up the Irons

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Mar 9, 2008
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I just hope that in a couple years "The Oilers Model" will be a thing... and then hockey fans will scoff at the discussion since it takes 10 years of suck, and lots of lottery luck as a prerequisite.

oh, it will definitely be 'a thing', but I doubt it will mimmicked.

It will serve as a model for rebuilds for what not to do.
1. Never go scortched earth,
2. never be married to your prospects,
3. never draft too many wingers,
4. and, above all, always, always, always have the absolute most competent and proven people occupying the positions of POHO and GM.

Can you imagine if the Oilers, as organization, had decided philosophically that they were going to adopt point 4 from year 1, not year 6?
 

The Nuge

Some say…
Jan 26, 2011
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British Columbia
I'd be happy with it because the difference between us and them, is on the wings. They've never been able to give Crosby and Malkin good linemates, while we're going to be giving McDavid a star winger.
 

Mr Positive

Cap Crunch Incoming
Nov 20, 2013
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I'd be happy with it because the difference between us and them, is on the wings. They've never been able to give Crosby and Malkin good linemates, while we're going to be giving McDavid a star winger.

It's not just a star winger. It's many top end talent wingers to choose from. If our dream combo doesn't pan out with chemistry, there's other things to try. Maybe he gels with Pouliot really well for some reason. Maybe Purcell. There's no such thing as a static depth chart so we're going to be seeing lots of combos
 

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