Is The Pens Model Really That Bad?

[Soundwave]

That is building around three really good centers (Crosby-Malkin-Staal).

The way I see it once developed a bit, having three centers that good pretty much makes you a good bet for a playoff seed. "Build down the middle" as they say.

If it wasn't for Fleury having four straight sub .900 save percentage playoff seasons (I know it wasn't all his fault but I do agree with the adage that at some point your goalie simply has to make a damn save) and Crosby's concussion issues I think perhaps they could have made the Finals at least another year or two.

Obviously we have to improve the D, but with Nurse and Klefbom already in the system, and potentially another D like Jeremy Roy coming with our other 1st round pick, we are building depth on the back end and should be able to chase after a Mike Green in the summer.

We'll have to at some point get consistent goaltending, but lots of teams find good goalies without selling the farm.

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[Bank Shot]

They won a cup, reached the finals an additional time, have been in an Eastern conference finals and been to the second round a bunch of times.

That's a huge pile of success by any measure and the Oilers and the fans should thank their lucky stars if our team has anywhere near that level of success over the next decade.

 

[Tarus]

Pens model has a few issues. Namely, Fleury(as you mentioned), the centers costing too much(18+ million for two centers is a killer), and the decline of Gonchar as a number one defenseman. It's kind of a cascade of issues stemming from an elitely paid core that underperforms in crunch time, and a team overall that lacks depth to compensate. I think they are stuck though, they should have probably tried to trade Malkin for Weber back in 2013, that is a team desperate for some overall team balance.

There is no problem building at center though. Fortunately, while Mcdavid might be an 8 - 9 million dollar player, neither Drai/Nuge will ever push for that kind of money. Having good players, but not elite players in the 2nd/3rd line roles is more ideal than paying out for two perceived first line centers, and never being able to find good wingers/defensemen to balance out the lines around them because you're running out of cap.

 

[harpoon]

I was told, when voicing my early objections to tanking as a rebuild "strategy", that the key point to understand was that the Oilers were going to really stock the cupboard up good so as to make sure and not "just win one lousy Cup". Nothing but a dynasty shall suffice for the good people of Edmonton. Pittsburgh ... pffft.

 

[Soundwave]

The thing is if the Oilers can develop Leon into a hybrid center/winger, it could be incredibly valuable too. Being able to slide him into a center role in a pinch because of injury or something would give us tremendous depth.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Pens don't have the defense nor depth in the bottom 6 to compete for a Cup

 

[thadd]

Issues:

1: Overpaid goalie
2: cheap wingers
3: Lame 4th line
4: Too many injury prone players.

 

[Spawn]

Here's the issue in trying to replicate the Pens model. Even if mcdavid becomes the greatest player in the nhl, that's still just one generational talent. The Penguins had two. It wasn't Sidney Crosby that was the best player in th world for their cup win. It was Evgeni Malkin. It's easier to cover up a lack of depth when you've got two mcdavid than it is if you have just one.

That being said, Center depth obviously is never a bad thing. It's a great thing to have a top group of centres in the league. But I don't think it can be at the expense of great players at other positions. To s large degree you play the hand you are dealt, but I would much rather try and be the Blackhawks and have two elite defensemen to compliment 2 or 3 great forwards. The Penguins did have gonchar and letang though when they won the cup. And those were two pretty top end d-men. So even the pens model required some great players on the backend the one time they won it all.

 

[Mr Positive]

During that whole time I wondered if they would trade Malkin. Maybe they could have got a stud like Weber, and maybe Staal would have developed differently if he had a scoring role. It's hard tell what is best in hindsight, or if such a trade was ever available to them

In the end, the Pens went from nobodies to cup contenders with their strategy

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

We could replicate the Pens as long as we don't have two players at the Crosby /Malkin contract level.

 

[CupofOil]

Pens model has a few issues. Namely, Fleury(as you mentioned), the centers costing too much(18+ million for two centers is a killer), and the decline of Gonchar as a number one defenseman. It's kind of a cascade of issues stemming from an elitely paid core that underperforms in crunch time, and a team overall that lacks depth to compensate. I think they are stuck though, they should have probably tried to trade Malkin for Weber back in 2013, that is a team desperate for some overall team balance.

There is no problem building at center though. Fortunately, while Mcdavid might be an 8 - 9 million dollar player, neither Drai/Nuge will ever push for that kind of money. Having good players, but not elite players in the 2nd/3rd line roles is more ideal than paying out for two perceived first line centers, and never being able to find good wingers/defensemen to balance out the lines around them because you're running out of cap.

How did they underperform? As has been mentioned above, this is a team that won a cup, almost won another and had a couple of Eastern Conference finals appearances. If they didn't have a rash of injuries the last 3 seasons, they might have gone further in those years.

Everybody talks about what a disappointment the Pens are, but they have done pretty darn well in the Crosby era. The Oilers would be lucky to have as much success. One cup and constant playoff contention as a high seed is about the best we can ask for in the salary cap era.

 

[Tarus]

How did they underperform? As has been mentioned above, this is a team that won a cup, almost won another and had a couple of Eastern Conference finals appearances. If they didn't have a rash of injuries the last 3 seasons, they might have gone further in those years.

Everybody talks about what a disappointment the Pens are, but they have done pretty darn well in the Crosby era. The Oilers would be lucky to have as much success. One cup and constant playoff contention as a high seed is about the best we can ask for in the salary cap era.

They won the Stanley cup when Malkin was on the last year of his ELC, and Crosby was on the first year of a major contract. Since then, they've gotten past the second round once when they lucked out by drawing two weak eastern conference opponents in 2013(NYI/Ottawa, before getting swept in a no-contest series against boston), and they've been outright dumped in the first round 3 times in those 6 years despite being supposed cup contenders. Considering both Malkin/Crosby are regarded as generational(I disagree regarding Malkin, but whatever), that is the definition underperforming for the highest paid center duo in the NHL.

They've straight up struggled to ice a team that can compete in the playoffs on a year to year basis since both Crosby/Malkin started getting paid, some of the reasons why I pointed out in my post. Shutdown/limit the effectiveness of Crosby/Malkin = that team can't compete, and the results have reflected that

 

[CupofOil]

They won the Stanley cup when Malkin was on the last year of his ELC, and Crosby was on the first year of a major contract. Since then, they've gotten past the second round once on the back of lucking out by drawing two weak eastern conference opponents(NYI/Ottawa in 2013, before getting swept in a no-contest series against boston), and they've been outright dumped in the first round 3 times in those 6 years despite being supposed cup contenders. Considering both Malkin/Crosby are regarded as generational(I disagree regarding Malkin, but whatever), that is the definition underperforming for the highest paid center duo in the NHL.

They've straight up struggled to ice a team that can compete in the playoffs on a year to year basis since both Crosby/Malkin started getting paid, some of the reasons why I pointed out in my post. Shutdown/limit the effectiveness of Crosby/Malkin = that team can't compete, and the results have reflected that

Injuries have played a big role, they have been devastated with injuries the last 3 seasons. This was the first season in a long time that Crosby was fully healthy but then they lost their 4 best defensemen coming down the stretch of the season along with a clearly injured Malkin and the season went straight down the tubes.

I'm just saying that the Pens model isn't exactly a poor one to emulate although it's easier to play that style of hockey in the east.

In any event, outside of 3 highly drafted centers, the roster aren't that much alike anyway so I don't see it as a valid comparison as the Oilers look now. The Oilers are stacked with wingers and the Pens had a more advanced blueline plus a good enough goalie.

 

[Tarus]

Injuries have played a big role, they have been devastated with injuries the last 3 seasons. This was the first season in a long time that Crosby was fully healthy but then they lost their 4 best defensemen coming down the stretch of the season along with a clearly injured Malkin and the season went straight down the tubes.

I'm just saying that the Pens model isn't exactly a poor one to emulate although it's easier to play that style of hockey in the east.

In any event, outside of 3 highly drafted centers, the roster aren't that much alike anyway so I don't see it as a valid comparison as the Oilers look now. The Oilers are stacked with wingers and the Pens had a more advanced blueline plus a good enough goalie.

The injuries just kind of emphasize how dangerous it is to load all your eggs into one basket, especially when you're paying out 9.5 million per year in cap to a guy made of glass like Malkin.

I agree that the teams aren't a great comparison though. As I said, the Oilers are fortunate that they get a Crosby type in Mcdavid, but don't have another guy who will command a 9 million a year type contract at forward. It'll theoretically allow Chia to spread the talent around a bit more for a better overall team down the road.

 

[CupofOil]

I agree that the teams aren't a great comparison though. As I said, the Oilers are fortunate that they get a Crosby type in Mcdavid, but don't have another guy who will command a 9 million a year type contract at forward. It'll theoretically allow Chia to spread the talent around a bit more for a better overall team down the road.

Agreed BUT they have 18 mil, maybe more if they bring in a vet 2nd RW, invested on the top 6 wings which I'd have to think is more than any other team in the league so tough decisions will have to be made in order to balance out the roster.

 

[Soundwave]

The Pens actually have about $12-$13 million in cap room this summer with Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury all signed long term. To be honest they could have kept Neal or Hossa too within their cap structure if they really wanted.

They're no where near in as bad of a cap situation as Chicago is.

 

[Gone]

They won the cup and came damn close a 2nd time. Fail.

 

[Tarus]

Agreed BUT they have 18 mil, maybe more if they bring in a vet 2nd RW, invested on the top 6 wings which I'd have to think is more than any other team in the league so tough decisions will have to be made in order to balance out the roster.

It looks a bit worse than it is due to having deadweight like Purcell, and overpaying a bit on guys like RNH, Gordon, and Pouliot. If push comes to shove though, it's much easier to move a guy like Eberle, RNH, or Yakupov, than it ever will be for Pittsburgh to look at moving a guy tied up in the team's identity and marketing like Malkin.

 

[CupofOil]

It looks a bit worse than it is due to having deadweight like Purcell, and overpaying a bit on guys like RNH, Gordon, and Pouliot. If push comes to shove though, it's much easier to move a guy like Eberle, RNH, or Yakupov, than it ever will be for Pittsburgh to look at moving a guy tied up in the team's identity and marketing like Malkin.

I was thinking long term with Hall, Eberle and Pouliot being locked up and Yak soon after if he has a big year. Purcell doesn't really prohibit them from doing anything because it's only 1 year although I think it's imperative to replace him with a fast gritty winger.

One or maybe two of these guys are going to be gone at some point. I don't think Yak is long for here, maybe 1 year max IMO.

Regardless, I'm so freaking relieved that it's Chiarelli making these decisions now or perhaps more importantly, that it's anybody but MacT making these decisions.

 

[MinisterOfSinister]

The Pittsburgh model brought the city a Stanley Cup. With that in mind then yes, their rebuild was/has been a success.

They have underlying issues and depth issues though. However they have their core locked up, a core that has proven it can win.

My issues with following their model to a tee is that it may not achieve the results we want in this conference. I believe we need to have a much stronger D core than what Pitts is running right now if we want to see the post season. "Heavier" players as Chia likes to call them will be needed as well; the Oilers need to find a way to stop the big teams that can skate in this conference and it's not going to happen with three "fancy" scoring lines and over matched D.

I'm all for building up the middle, but at some point some of our top end scoring on the wings will have to be moved for the top pairing this team needs.

 

[Tarus]

I was thinking long term with Hall, Eberle and Pouliot being locked up and Yak soon after if he has a big year. Purcell doesn't really prohibit them from doing anything because it's only 1 year although I think it's imperative to replace him with a fast gritty winger.

One or maybe two of these guys are going to be gone at some point. I don't think Yak is long for here, maybe 1 year max IMO.

Regardless, I'm so freaking relieved that it's Chiarelli making these decisions now or perhaps more importantly, that it's anybody but MacT making these decisions.

Yeah, I'm very relieved that Chia is making the decisions as well. Boston may have gotten into cap hell, but it's far preferable to be in cap hell because your team has had too much success like Boston, than it is to be in cap hell because your GM is incompetent.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

For the Pens to have arguably the two best players in the game and only have a single cup to show for it is a little disappointing.

 

[ales83fan]

They won the cup and came damn close a 2nd time. Fail.

Not quite in that order though.

They won the Cup the second year they went to the Cup.

Sorry I know it doesnt matter, but I had to put it out there!

 

[Hynh]

The difference between Pittsburgh and Chicago is that Chicago has Saad. We should be sitting her asking if player x is a product of Crosby. We are but it's 35 year old Chris Kunitz instead of a kid fresh out of junior. Drafting well in the late first/second round is the only way to sustain success in the modern NHL since you constantly have to sell off your depth.

 

[SK13]

Frankly don't think this resembles the Penguins model anymore.

It's the "suck by accident/have great luck" model.