Is the D Line Good enough to go all the way?

[WilliamInLondon]

Anything can happen and it's anyone's guess, but I actually am quite bullish that the Leafs can get past the 1st round this year. Beyond that, who knows, as there are no easy outs (including Tampa in the 1st round) for them this season.

But for the first time in a long time, I am happy with the depth of this squad heading into the playoffs, which we know is always a matter of attrition. I think Dubas would have made the same moves anyway with a non-expiring contract, but when guys like Schenn and Gustafson are your #7-8 guys, you're in a good spot. At the end of the day, I think their defence, goaltending, and secondary forwards are good enough - but how far they go come spring will ultimately depend on the Big 4 + ROR.

 

[TorMapleJays]

If only we had a Conn Smythe winner on our team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

How is this defense good enough?

Is there a Norris caliber defenseman on the team? Someone that can win a playoff series all themselves? A Conn Smythe caliber player that can carry the team on his back?

This mythical creature doesn't exist and when you start with this sort of nonsense, you're basically saying you're not interested in having a discussion.

 

[diceman934]

Rielly the escape goat. Rielly is more then fine. He had been playing well as of late and always plays well in the playoffs.
The answer is yes we have a good enough d to win the cup.

Keefe is the key. He has proven to not be good on the fly changes in the playoffs.

Rielly will again be our best D man by a wide margin in the playoffs.

 

[thusk]

Exactly half of all Conn Smythe trophies have been won by a defenseman or goaltender.

Considering there are a lot more forwards in the league, that says something.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, thinks this defense is good enough. The best defenseman on the team is Morgan Rielly. And half the fan base wants to trade him because they feel he is overpaid for what he brings to the table.

How is this defense good enough?

Is there a Norris caliber defenseman on the team? Someone that can win a playoff series all themselves? A Conn Smythe caliber player that can carry the team on his back?

No.

Of course not. Like I said, Morgan Rielly is the best defenseman on the team. That says a lot more about Dubas than it does Rielly.

Three times in his short career Dubas could have filled that 1RHD spot properly.

Not once. Not twice. But three times Dubas could have done what so many other GM's only wish they could.

Add a true #1RHD.

If the team goes out early in the playoffs again this year, you can be sure that Kyle Dubas' refusal to change direction and fill that 1RHD position properly, despite every shred of evidence pointing to "we can and we will" as being a massive failure, will be reason why.

Best player in the team winning conn smythe... thats it

Last dman who won it

Makar
Hedman
Keith
Nidermayer
Lidstrom

Makar is probably the connor mcdavid in D
Hedman is probably best d of last decade
Niedermayer and Lidstrom was 2 or 3-4 best d of their generation

Like i said, its one of 2-3-4 best player of team who won conn smythe whatever where they're playing...

 

[diceman934]

Leafs were unstoppable while Rielly was injured. He came back and they are a .500 team. He is a huge liability defensively and does not contribute on the PP. Unfortunately there is nobody to replace him on the PP now that Sandin is gone. Gus would be better than Rielly on the PP but I wouldn’t dress him in the playoffs.

Lol back at attacking Rielly again..

 

[TorMapleJays]

Matthews looking like 2021/22 Matthews will not hurt. If he is going to go on a heater, Mid April would be the time to do it.

 

[Leafblooded]

If we can beat Boston then maybe.... But that's a very gigantic if. I can't see this team getting past round 2, if even they somehow magic their way through round 1

 

[Mess]

Best player in the team winning conn smythe... thats it

Last dman who won it

Makar
Hedman
Keith
Nidermayer
Lidstrom

Makar is probably the connor mcdavid in D
Hedman is probably best d of last decade
Niedermayer and Lidstrom was 2 or 3-4 best d of their generation

Like i said, its one of 2-3-4 best player of team who won conn smythe whatever where they're playing...

Its true many successful playoff teams have a big horse on D that plays 1/2 the game and is key to a teams success.

Leafs are trying to win with having 1/2 their Cap in only 4 forwards, so you have to make sacrifices and cut costs at the other positions, Despite all the talent and offensive skill of the core 4, it hasn't resulted in a playoff series win.

When you face a team like TB they have Stamkos, Kucherov and Point up front BUT then they have Dman Hedman (Conn Smythe) and Goalie Andrei Vasilevskiy (Conn Smythe) and then Copper as coach.

Leafs have the horses up front to match TB, but then when you ask if Leafs defense is good enough the opposition has the advantage at defense core, goalie and coach and system and structure.

 

[thusk]

Its true many successful playoff teams have a big horse on D that plays 1/2 the game and is key to a teams success.

Leafs are trying to win with having 1/2 their Cap in only 4 forwards, so you have to make sacrifices and cut costs at the other positions, Despite all the talent and offensive skill of the core 4, it hasn't resulted in a playoff series win.

When you face a team like TB they have Stamkos, Kucherov and Point up front BUT then they have Dman Hedman (Conn Smythe) and Goalie Andrei Vasilevskiy (Conn Smythe) and then Copper as coach.

Leafs have the horses up front to match TB, but then when you ask if Leafs defense is good enough the opposition has the advantage at defense core, goalie and coach and system and structure.

1-Do you know the difference between leafs top 6 and tampa top 6 last season was less than 3M?

2-Having depht its also why leafs add jarnkrok, acciari, lafferty and ROR this season...its the best bottom 6 leafs never had

3-Yes tampa having hedman... but they dont have any depht and this season toronto is the best defensive team and its not even close

 

[keonsbitterness]

This mythical creature doesn't exist and when you start with this sort of nonsense, you're basically saying you're not interested in having a discussion.

His master plan was for us trade for Erik Karlsson, which would have required the Sharks and likely another team to retain up to 75% of his $11.5M salary until his contract expires in 2026-27. Not happening.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

This mythical creature doesn't exist and when you start with this sort of nonsense, you're basically saying you're not interested in having a discussion.

No. I'm sorry. But you are wrong. There are not many players of that caliber. But they do exist.

The objective is to win this year.

THIS year.

And a Norris caliber defenseman is virtually a requirement for a cup winning team.

Dubas had the opportunity to fill that 1RHD position properly three times and did not. Three times he could have had a Norris caliber defenseman on the team and willfully choose not to pursue that opportunity. If the team goes out early again this year, you can be sure that not fixing the defense properly will be a reason why.

Because there is no way, no way, you can convince me that having Gustafsson, McCabe, and Schenn on the team is better than having Erik Karlsson.

His master plan was for us trade for Erik Karlsson, which would have required the Sharks and likely another team to retain up to 75% of his $11.5M salary until his contract expires in 2026-27. Not happening.

Or they could have just sent Marner over.

Marner + everything else Dubas traded, including Sandin, for Meier + Karlsson.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the offseason.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No. I'm sorry. But you are wrong. There are not many players of that caliber. But they do exist.

The objective is to win this year.

THIS year.

And a Norris caliber defenseman is virtually a requirement for a cup winning team.

Dubas had the opportunity to fill that 1RHD position properly three times and did not. Three times he could have had a Norris caliber defenseman on the team and willfully choose not to pursue that opportunity. If the team goes out early again this year, you can be sure that not fixing the defense properly will be a reason why.

Because there is no way, no way, you can convince me that having Gustafsson, McCabe, and Schenn on the team is better than having Erik Karlsson.

OK I'll humor you, who are the players who have won playoff series all by themselves? And when PIT won the cup with Letang injured, who was their Norris caliber Dman?

Or they could have just sent Marner over.

Marner + everything else Dubas traded, including Sandin, for Meier + Karlsson.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the offseason.

 

[Wendelstache]

more confident without Justin Holl in the top 6.

 

[thusk]

No. I'm sorry. But you are wrong. There are not many players of that caliber. But they do exist.

The objective is to win this year.

THIS year.

And a Norris caliber defenseman is virtually a requirement for a cup winning team.

Dubas had the opportunity to fill that 1RHD position properly three times and did not. Three times he could have had a Norris caliber defenseman on the team and willfully choose not to pursue that opportunity. If the team goes out early again this year, you can be sure that not fixing the defense properly will be a reason why.

Because there is no way, no way, you can convince me that having Gustafsson, McCabe, and Schenn on the team is better than having Erik Karlsson.


Or they could have just sent Marner over.

Marner + everything else Dubas traded, including Sandin, for Meier + Karlsson.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the offseason.

Pittsburgh won 2 cup with a rielly 2.0, and an other with him injured...

And YES mccabe at 2M is much more better than karlsson ar 11.5M

Karlsson salary = salary of rielly+Brodie together and i keep brodie/rielly over a selfish guy like Karlsson

 

[crump]

I like the depth of nhl calibre defenseman that were added. Do we have a Makar, Fox or Hedman? No. Do we need one? Some teams win without a clear #1 offensive D man

Rielly returned late December from knee injury. He’s might be still playing with a brace. To me everything was effected, speed, agility, reaction time, he’s just now coming up to speed imo. With luck he’ll be his best self come playoffs. Is he a true #1? No. He’s producing at a 54 point pace. Which is #1 on a lot of teams. He’s better than what he has show since returning. The issue is also, who do you play with him that can handle higher minutes?

Brodie will be relied on and probably best suited in playing with Rielly. Straight up great defender.

Giordano, despite his age is probably our most reliable defenseman, blocks shots and clears the puck, makes smart quick plays to get the puck out. Solid PK go to left side. I wonder how his 39 yo body will handle the intense playoff schedule.

McCabe has been good and dependable for the most part. I like his grit and shot blocking and has come as advertised. Not quite a Muzzin, but solid #4. Scored a nice goal against the Sens. We need that secondary scoring from the D. He has coughed up a muffin or 2 that seemed to have gone unnoticed, but nobody’s perfect.

Liljegren has developed nicely. I like his speed, puck carrying ability and shot, now starting to show some physicality but still unproven and needs to pick his spots without taking a penalty or making careless mistakes. Love his defensive game and he should be in the top 6.

Holl is prone to careless mistakes as well, but the thing he has going for him is his reach and puck blocking ability on the PK. Meaning Keefe will probably stick with him in the lineup.

Schenn has looked good in a few games. His physicality is much needed but I have trouble seeing him having the energy in the tank to play the amount of time he would need to in order to be anything other than a number 6 or injury fill in. I think fatigue will expose his weaknesses. I can see him put in game 1 as a tone setter, or later in a series if physical play is an issue.

Timmins seems like the odd man out for now, which is unfortunate because I think he was definitely one of the better puck moving defensemen when he played. Had good vision and his stats speak for themselves. Maybe got too cute on a few passes that ended up in our net but nothing that can’t be corrected. I have no trouble with him as a fill in.

Gustafsson has been ok, showed flashes of good speed vision and puck moving ability. Defensively not a liability that I’ve seen. Despite the trade being a head scratcher and regardless of how I feel about losing Sandin, I can’t deny he can step in as a depth guy if needed.

Jordie Benn was very good in his limited role this season, surprised by his offensive awareness on top of his gung ho attitude. If we lose the amount a D we would need to see him, we probably have bigger problems.

I see Holl and Schenn swapping out depending on the tone of the series.

Keefe might see things differently.

 

[Leafsfan74]

It has to be defense by committee. This is where O Reilly is a huge addition. I would have went hard for Petroangelo when he became a F.A and traded Rielly, but thats just my opinion.

McCabe and Schenn need to be playing in the playoffs. Rielly should have a couple of his minutes distributed appropriately. I'd even feel comfortable with Benn in the lineup, the depth back there is noticeable.

When you have a Norris Trophy winner on your third pair, that's pretty impressive, I don't care his age. The have more leaders on defense than in the past.

 

[IPS]

Or they could have just sent Marner over.

Marner + everything else Dubas traded, including Sandin, for Meier + Karlsson.

Figure out who stays and who goes in the offseason

What the actual f*** kind of trade is this

 

[thusk]

I didn't say Rielly and Brodie.

I said McCabe, Gustafsson, and Schenn.

Those were the layers Dubas' brought in.

If you are trying to tell me you would seriously rather have those Gustafsson, McCabe, and Schenn on the team over Erik Karlsson and Rasmus Sandin for what might be the most important cup run in recent Leafs history, I don't know what to tell you.

Because I would rather have a two, soon to be three, time Norris trophy winner, the greatest defenseman of his generation, in the midst of the best year of his career, and a promising cost controlled defenseman that you hope to draft at Sandin's position and turns out as good as he did, than any of the duds that Dubas brought in.

Maybe that's just me though.

I would also recommend reading these articles.

betweentheposts . ca/2022/07/maple-leafs-in-rarified-air/

Betweentheposts . ca/2023/02/the-leafs-are-still-an-illusion/

Actually, I would recommend reading his whole blog.

And hes considerate letang like a norris caliber but rielly not...


Since 2016
Rielly 1.21 pts/60 min game played
Letang 1.15/60

Both at 0.27 goal/60

PPP/60
rielly 5.77
Letang 5.06

Ppg /60
Rielly 0.48
Letang 0.96

Goal against
467 in 472 game for rielly
430 in 430

Ev ice time
Rielly 19:04
letang 20:11

Now playoff stats

Pts/60
Rielly 1.15
Letang 1.05

Goal/60
Rielly 0.23
Letang 0.37

Goal against
Rielly 36 in 39
letang 45 in 38

Ppp/60
rielly 4,7/60
Letang 4.2/60

Ppg
riely 1.27/60
Letang 0

Ev ice time
Rielly 21:19
Letang 22:04



Mccabe gustafsson and schenn together having less than 4 M of cap hit karlsson alone is at 11 5M...

Its like comparing matthews to jarnkrok, ZAR and acciari...

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

What the actual f*** kind of trade is this

The kid of trade that a lame duck GM desperate to keep his job would make.

See Raptors: Masai Ujiri.

When the objective is to win THIS year, you make the BIG move.

All these duds and touching up around the fringes isn't good enough when the core has proven six times already they can't get it done.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just read this and it will answer every question you just asked.

betweentheposts . ca/2022/07/maple-leafs-in-rarified-air/

Betweentheposts . ca/2023/02/the-leafs-are-still-an-illusion/

You don't have to take my word for it. But Howard Berger is a lot more accomplished. I would also recommend reading the rest of his site too if so inclined to do so.

He is a much better writer than I am.

If you're going to post links, I suggest you fix them (remove spaces) first but OK.

The first article is from last summer but OK, it's similar to the second one. The general point is that most cup winners have a franchise goalie and Norris quality Dman and that's fine. The word most is important here and the article does list the exceptions, there have been teams that have won the cup with neither so you're kind of arguing against yourself here. Of course it's possible to win without these components, it's been done before for crissakes and there goes your entire argument.

The most recent example is the 2016 Penguins, so a thinking person might start by comparing our team to that team. I think we stack up pretty well myself, they had CrosbyMalkin/Kessel which is a fantastic trio and those guys drove that team to the cup. That said, I think our top 3 of M&M/Nylander stacks up quite nicely against those three and then we have ROR and Tavares which is better than what that PIT team had at the 4/5 spots. With the adds we've made our depth is quite good as well and our D as a group is much better than what PIT was rolling with. Just because we don't have a Norris quality Dman (though Rielly arguably played like one last spring) doesn't mean that as a group, the D can't get the job done.

What's more important, whether a team has a Norris quality Dman or not, or what the quality of the defence is as a whole? I say the answer is obvious - the defence as a whole is more important. Our team is 4th best in the NHL in goals allowed per game so one glance at that big picture is enough to understand that the teams defence is good enough to win the cup.

You want another reason to be optimistic? Guess who was 4th best in the NHL in 2016, when PIT won the cup? That's right, it was Pittsburgh. They were 4th best during the season, then their D took a massive blow losing their one star Dman for the playoffs and guess what, they still won the cup. So how in the world can you sit there with a straight face and say that it's not possible for the Leafs to win the cup because their defence is lacking?

Murray came out of nowhere to provide quality goaltending for PIT in the playoffs, I see no reason Samsonov can't do the same for us. And who knows, maybe the fact that Murray is now on our team is a sign. You never know, this could be the year.

I hope that helps. Our team is a top contender, it's OK to be optimistic.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

And hes considerate letang like a norris caliber but rielly not...


Since 2016
Rielly 1.21 pts/60 min game played
Letang 1.15/60

Both at 0.27 goal/60

PPP/60
rielly 5.77
Letang 5.06

Ppg /60
Rielly 0.48
Letang 0.96

Goal against
467 in 472 game for rielly
430 in 430

Ev ice time
Rielly 19:04
letang 20:11

Now playoff stats

Pts/60
Rielly 1.15
Letang 1.05

Goal/60
Rielly 0.23
Letang 0.37

Goal against
Rielly 36 in 39
letang 45 in 38

Ppp/60
rielly 4,7/60
Letang 4.2/60

Ppg
riely 1.27/60
Letang 0

Ev ice time
Rielly 21:19
Letang 22:04



Mccabe gustafsson and schenn together having less than 4 M of cap hit karlsson alone is at 11 5M

There is a reason McCabe, Gustafsson, and Schenn make what they earn and Karlsson get what he does.

But hey, if you really think these guys are going to be the difference in the Leafs winning in the playoffs or not, that's your opinion.

Personally I don't see how bringing in three guys, two of who are worse than Sandin, the Leafs most physical defemseman, leading in hits at the time when he was traded, and the other being at most a slight upgrade, is a good thing.

Why remake half.the defense on a "contending" team?

Shouldn't the defense not have been settled months ago? Like, at the beginning of the season? I can understand bringing in someone for depth and in case of injuries.

SOMEONE.

But stuffing the bottom of the roster with so many cruddy players they can even give everyone the ice time they deserve reeks of incompetence.

Like Dubas' started something and couldn't finish it.

 

[thusk]

There is a reason McCabe, Gustafsson, and Schenn make what they earn and Karlsson get what he does.

But hey, if you really think these guys are going to be the difference in the Leafs winning in the playoffs or not, that's your opinion.

Personally I don't see how bringing in three guys, two of who are worse than Sandin, the Leafs most physical defemseman, leading in hits at the time when he was traded, and the other being at most a slight upgrade, is a good thing.

Why remake half.the defense on a "contending" team?

Shouldn't the defense not have been settled months ago? Like, at the beginning of the season? I can understand bringing in someone for depth and in case of injuries.

SOMEONE.

But stuffing the bottom of the roster with so many cruddy players they can even give everyone the ice time they deserve reeks of incompetence.

Like Dubas' started something and couldn't finish it.

Mccabe >>> Sandin

Sandin are trash defensivly and would be at best 7th. The fact he was leading doesn't make sandin a physical D if he cant even one 1v1 physical battle

Because of Muzzin injury, rielly had to play shutdown role with brodie and having a trash season because of it

And adding karlsson to rielly would have the same effect than when sj added an offensive elite dman karlsson to an other elite offensive dman in Burns. An offensive D its not whats leafs needed. They needed a defensive minded dman to be able to remove RiElly to that role and its exactly what Mccabe is( a kind of new hainsey with more physicality). Now with Mccabe, rielly can concentrate his game to the offensive part and do what hes best at and the reason why leafs paying rielly

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Mccabe >>> Sandin

Sandin are trash defensivly and would be at best 7th. The fact he was leading doesn't make sandin a physical D if he cant even one 1v1 physical battle

Because of Muzzin injury, rielly had to play shutdown role with brodie and having a trash season because of it

And adding karlsson to rielly would have the same effect than when sj added an offensive elite dman karlsson to an other elite offensive dman in Burns. An offensive D its not whats leafs needed. They needed a defensive minded dman to be able to remove RiElly to that role and its exactly what Mccabe is( a kind of new hainsey with more physicality). Now with Mccabe, rielly can concentrate his game to the offensive part and do what hes best at and the reason why leafs paying rielly

I guess we will find out in spring won't we?

 

[peconcan]

Holl should be nowhere near the top 6 for the Tampa series but we all know that won’t happen. Schenn needs to take his spot we need some physicality and toughness in the lineup against them if we want to win