Is The Attitude Era Of The WWE Overrated?

[CHGoalie27]

I'd agree with this. I would also argue that mid/late 80s WWF is way more palatable to rewatch in the present day. Of course, they weren't putting out a weekly show the calibre of Raw, so I'm more or less comparing SNME to the Raw episodes in terms of the overall wrestling culture of the times. I prefer over-the-top characters of the 80's to over-the-top violence & innuendoes of the late 90's. The latter may as well be burlesque for dudes, which loses its luster at a dramatic rate after the 100th iteration.

Still, today's pretty much character-less lineup helpes the attitude era line up with the previous golden era

 

[BonMorrison]

I have mixed feelings on the era. I agree that it was massive and must see television but I also have personal bias' because I grew up in that time and I know that will make me romanticize it a lot more than I probably should. As I've matured as an adult and have worked to be a better person though that cuts out all the problematic bullshit of the world, it is very hard to look back on without cringing a lot.

So yeah, product of it's time and I'm not sure it's gonna age better in my mind even if teenage me thought it was the greatest thing ever.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

the "everyone having a storyline" part was part of what made it great. That just meant you had a reason to give a s**t about every part of the show. Without it, you have filler matches that dont mean a thing.

Additionally, everyone had a storyline because the roster was that deep...and they were actually using the undercard and lower titles to groom new stars.

the undercard from 97-00 included HHH, The Rock, Hardyz, Edge, Christian, Owen Hart, Shamrock, Farooq, Bradshaw, Jeff Jarrett, Mick Foley

also, technical skill <> a good wrestler in ring. technical exhibitions with no story telling are garbage. The key to being a good worker in ring is being able to tell the story of the match. Back then almost everyone was doing that.

was everything gold? of course not, it never will be.

but in terms of depth of talent, storylines, crowd energy and excitement, it's untouchable. it was the last era to realize what wrestling is at it's heart...a soap opera.

 

[bruins309]

Depends what era within the era you mean.

1998 up through about Summerslam is awesome.

1999 is an abomination of Russo-riffic nonsense.

2000 up to WM17 is mostly good again because stuff starts to make sense.

 

[scrubadam]

and all members of Degeneration X ?

Meh, Gunn and Road Dogg actually sucked and were only over for their opening spiel. X pac is X pac there is a reason the term X pac heat was invented.

HHH got good after the attitude era. 2000 HHH was better than 97-99 HHH.

Chyna was all over TV and one of the biggest stars of the era, but she couldn't talk or work worth a lick.

 

[scrubadam]

Since we are at the 20 year anniversary of KOR 98 I think the HIAC encapsulates the Attitude Era. Over the top car crash that you can't look away, but in reality was too over the top dangerous and a horrible match. It is super exciting to see Mick get thrown off the cage and then through the cage but if you think about it its absolutly disgusting.

There was no reason for Mick to take that bump, but then he followed it up with another bump and both could of killed him! and then he continues the match with a seperated shoulder and I am sure multiple concussions. The guy could barely stand at one point. In today's age the match would of been stopped. Mick basically could of killed himself to get over. There wasn't any gimmicked mats or tables it was total disregard for himself and for UT (imagine having Micks death on his hands because of those spots).

Its the era in a nutshell. Disgusting over the top violence, bad wrestling, but excitement of something you haven't seen before that enthralled the audience that raised the bar far above what wrestlers could continue to achieve.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I'd agree with this. I would also argue that mid/late 80s WWF is way more palatable to rewatch in the present day. Of course, they weren't putting out a weekly show the calibre of Raw, so I'm more or less comparing SNME to the Raw episodes in terms of the overall wrestling culture of the times. I prefer over-the-top characters of the 80's to over-the-top violence & innuendoes of the late 90's. The latter may as well be burlesque for dudes, which loses its luster at a dramatic rate after the 100th iteration.

I think the Ruthless Aggression era has aged magnificently. That 2002-2004/5 time frame, at least on the Smackdown side thanks to the Smackdown 6 and Heyman's booking.

I could watch those shows forever. Great wrestling, character advancement was still there.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

As many have said, the Attitude Era is a product of its time. Punk rock, gangster rap, ECW, grunge, Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, these things. Rebellious trashy things got mainstream attention. Vince just followed the wave (and went WAYYYYYYYYYYY over the top).

It hasn't aged well at all. Promos and characters are still entertaining to me because I grew up with it (nostalgia, you know), but the wrestling was crap, the angles made little sense/were offensive and everything went way too fast. Still, there was a lot of good stuff in there: the Austin/McMahon dynamic, the HHH/Foley feuds, The Rock, the tag team division of 99 through 01, etc. Watched the early DX stuff with Michaels and HHH a short while ago and gosh that shit is incredibly bad... yet entertaining.

Product of its time, yup.

 

[Conrad McBenis]

I was 12-14 during the attitude era. It was f***ing great!

Rewatching it as an adult... Definitely didn't age well.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I think the Ruthless Aggression era has aged magnificently. That 2002-2004/5 time frame, at least on the Smackdown side thanks to the Smackdown 6 and Heyman's booking.

I could watch those shows forever. Great wrestling, character advancement was still there.

You are a little younger than me if I remember correctly (I am 32) so I would guess that you look even more foundly on that time period because you grew up on it. I grew up on Bret, Shawn, Diesel, Razor and then the Attitude Era. To this day, this is still the period that fascinate me the most. I barely watched from 2002 to 2005 then from 2007 to about 2011. Have been watching pretty regularly since 2011 even if I took many breaks.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

I think the Ruthless Aggression era has aged magnificently. That 2002-2004/5 time frame, at least on the Smackdown side thanks to the Smackdown 6 and Heyman's booking.

I could watch those shows forever. Great wrestling, character advancement was still there.

Outside of the reign of the SmackDown 6, I find the RA era mostly terrible or forgettable. SmackDown was good for about a year (while Heyman was there) but the Triple H Raw show was unbarable. It actually drove me away for several years.
Lots of forgotten stars hired who were clearly partially models, but couldn't do anything in the ring and disappeared.

 

[JackSlater]

Since we are at the 20 year anniversary of KOR 98 I think the HIAC encapsulates the Attitude Era. Over the top car crash that you can't look away, but in reality was too over the top dangerous and a horrible match. It is super exciting to see Mick get thrown off the cage and then through the cage but if you think about it its absolutly disgusting.

There was no reason for Mick to take that bump, but then he followed it up with another bump and both could of killed him! and then he continues the match with a seperated shoulder and I am sure multiple concussions. The guy could barely stand at one point. In today's age the match would of been stopped. Mick basically could of killed himself to get over. There wasn't any gimmicked mats or tables it was total disregard for himself and for UT (imagine having Micks death on his hands because of those spots).

Its the era in a nutshell. Disgusting over the top violence, bad wrestling, but excitement of something you haven't seen before that enthralled the audience that raised the bar far above what wrestlers could continue to achieve.

That's a lot of hand wringing. Foley's bump off the cage was huge, yes, but even in recent times Shane McMahon has taken bigger dives. They should have been better prepared for it at ringside, yes. The bump through the cage was a botch as the cage wasn't supposed to completely give way like that. It's difficult to blame the era for a mechanical error. Should the match have been stopped? It could have been but it would have been bad for the product and mercifully Foley didn't take any terrible bumps after that. I can see the argument either way.

I can see the value of looking back on the ruthless aggression era as a sleep aid but little else gin how ainfully boring it often was. There is a reason that the number of fans fell so far during that time. The main difference between the two eras isn't even violence or "offensive" storylines (consider Snitsky's baby angle for instance) but presentation. Ruthless Aggression presented wrestling in a much more boring way and the product suffered. Add in the absence of Austin, Foley an Rock and the rise of the vastly inferior HHH and it gets even worse. I must also add how amusing, yet also depressing, it is that Right to Censor would be looked at as faces by so many today.

 

[tony d]

It was an awesome era for sure but yeah there was crap during the era. Every era, even this one, has its good and its bad points.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I don't think so. Was the in ring wrestling as good as today? No. But the characters, storytelling, crowd, etc were all so much better. A lot of the stuff wouldn't fly today, but that doesn't mean it wasn't great for it's time.

I loved things like IC, Tag and Hardcore title feuds and those midcard guys as much as Austin and The Rock. I was even entertained by things like The Oddities. Sure not everything was A+, but ever era has it's good and bad.

There were botched angles (ex: Higher Power, Invasion), stuff that would be awful regardless of era (ex: Katie Vick) and things that were so bad they were hilarious (ex: "CHOPPY CHOPPY YOUR PEE PEE!")

You also add in the fact you had WCW and to a lesser extent ECW that were around providing decent competition. There were so many nights I was switching back between Raw and Nitro.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

I don't think so. Was the in ring wrestling as good as today? No. But the characters, storytelling, crowd, etc were all so much better. A lot of the stuff wouldn't fly today, but that doesn't mean it wasn't great for it's time.

I loved things like IC, Tag and Hardcore title feuds and those midcard guys as much as Austin and The Rock. I was even entertained by things like The Oddities. Sure not everything was A+, but ever era has it's good and bad.

There were botched angles (ex: Higher Power, Invasion), stuff that would be awful regardless of era (ex: Katie Vick) and things that were so bad they were hilarious (ex: "CHOPPY CHOPPY YOUR PEE PEE!")

You also add in the fact you had WCW and to a lesser extent ECW that were around providing decent competition. There were so many nights I was switching back between Raw and Nitro.

Katie Vick is an example of something I would not consider Attitude era. Took place in October 2002, well after my own personal cutoff date, and after the name Ruthless Aggression for that era was coined.

 

[scrubadam]

As many have said, the Attitude Era is a product of its time. Punk rock, gangster rap, ECW, grunge, Howard Stern, Jerry Springer, these things. Rebellious trashy things got mainstream attention. Vince just followed the wave (and went WAYYYYYYYYYYY over the top).

It hasn't aged well at all. Promos and characters are still entertaining to me because I grew up with it (nostalgia, you know), but the wrestling was crap, the angles made little sense/were offensive and everything went way too fast. Still, there was a lot of good stuff in there: the Austin/McMahon dynamic, the HHH/Foley feuds, The Rock, the tag team division of 99 through 01, etc. Watched the early DX stuff with Michaels and HHH a short while ago and gosh that **** is incredibly bad... yet entertaining.

Product of its time, yup.

Show the product to someone today who wasn't born then and they have nostalgia and they would probably think its really bad outside of Rock/Austin/Foley.

It was totally a product of its time and really only makes sense in its time frame. How over the top and vulgar it was just doesn't play in today's day with today's audience.

 

[scrubadam]

That's a lot of hand wringing. Foley's bump off the cage was huge, yes, but even in recent times Shane McMahon has taken bigger dives. They should have been better prepared for it at ringside, yes. The bump through the cage was a botch as the cage wasn't supposed to completely give way like that. It's difficult to blame the era for a mechanical error. Should the match have been stopped? It could have been but it would have been bad for the product and mercifully Foley didn't take any terrible bumps after that. I can see the argument either way.

Bumps after that started to be gimmicked. Any shane bump had mats and he was prepared for his falls and took them like a proper stuntman. Same with Owens at Extreme rules. It was a great bump because he hit it clean and there was air mats there to make it safe. What Foley did was insanely dangerous, no one knew it was going to happen (because he lied about it) and it could of killed him. And it also create this myth that all you need to do is fall off something really high and you will be a superstar. It raised the bar to a ridiculous and unfair level for every other wrestler.

And the 2nd bump was even worse, it wasn't a botch he was supposed to fall through it. Just the chair wasn't supposed to hit on the head on the way down. And the way he took the bump (because of the crappy cage and the fact that his brain was knocked for a loop) was extremly dangerous. Look at todays HIAC's and the one Foley was on. They wouldn't have a shit cage like that with 2 300 lbs fighting on top of it.

And it should of stopped. Watch after he gets up from the second bump and the match starts, he can barely stand. Watch the whole match, its cringe worthy. And then foley continued the match taking more bumps and even a tack bump. And the tack bump missed and he ROLLED around in them because it missed. There is no way he was not concussed and what we know about CTE the match should of been over.

Its an amazing spectacle. I think JR's call "as good as my witness he is broken in half" is the greatest call in all of sports. I love the match, I love Mick for his work, I loved the match at the time, but watching it today it makes me queasy. Foley just went above and beyond putting his body on the line and it set the tone for the industry of trying to top the untopable.

I can see the value of looking back on the ruthless aggression era as a sleep aid but little else gin how ainfully boring it often was. There is a reason that the number of fans fell so far during that time. The main difference between the two eras isn't even violence or "offensive" storylines (consider Snitsky's baby angle for instance) but presentation. Ruthless Aggression presented wrestling in a much more boring way and the product suffered. Add in the absence of Austin, Foley an Rock and the rise of the vastly inferior HHH and it gets even worse. I must also add how amusing, yet also depressing, it is that Right to Censor would be looked at as faces by so many today.

Attitude Era felt fresh. Compare it to wrestling from 90-95 and its night and day. Before that you didn't see a live 2 hour show with crazy fans, pyro every where, signs all over the place, and WWF (and WCW) were blurring the lines between reality and kayfabe. It fit in with the times too as being crass, reality based (this was reality TV was just starting out) violent and over the top. The presentation was breathtaking for the time.

And then it was down to Austin/Foley/Rock who were just so talented they could make all the stupid storylines work. VKM vs Austin has so many stupid moments in (higher power, who raised the briefcase, Giant debut) but Austin just made it work.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

@scrubadam Foley was never supposed to fall through the cage. I don’t know who you’re listening to, but Foley and Taker have both said numerous times that it wasn’t supposed to happen and Taker didn’t even want to continue after the first bump because he was worried.

Vince didn’t even want the first bump to happen, why would he be okay with Foley taking another bump right after through the cage without a gimmicked canvas? It wasn’t a planned bump.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

@scrubadam Foley was never supposed to fall through the cage. I don’t know who you’re listening to, but Foley and Taker have both said numerous times that it wasn’t supposed to happen and Taker didn’t even want to continue after the first bump because he was worried.

Came here to say this.

 

[The Burdened]

Arguably the 2 top stars in history? Rock + Austin check
Arguably the best storyline in history? Austin vs. McMahon check
Arguably the peak of tag team wrestling in WWE and the best tag division in WWE history? E&C, Hardys, Dudleys etc check
Arguably the best car crash matches in WWE history? Too many too name and bars were set that still have not been surpassed. Check.
Arguably the best technical wrestling ever assembled for a WWE roster? Benoit, Angle, Jericho, Guerrero, Regal etc etc etc all in their prime check

January 2000 to WM17 is peak WWE. Yes, WWE 97-98 is still IT and hits a lot of chords because of Austin and Co, but it also was lacking in a lot of areas. WWE 2000-01 had it all. Great top stars. Great upper midcard. Great tag division. Greta midcard. Great workers. Great matches. It had everything.

It used to be better. Much, much, much better.

Since it happened, nobody talks about any other Era that has come after it the way the AE is still talked about. People that are in their early 20's right now should be talking up the Ruthless Aggression Era and how awesome it was because that is what they grew up with and they never lived thru the Attitude Era. Not many people want to talk about Ruthless Aggression era.

Even WWE knows it used to be better, but there's a reason why they don't do Ruthless Aggression exposé and would rather rehash the AE for the 1000th time. They will still talk about the AE in 15-years rather than the Ruthless Aggression Era, PG Era, Reality Era or Network Era or whatever else they're onto by then, and people will eat it up.

To demonstrate how firing on cylinders and what a time it was, The Brood AKA a lower midcard faction that was together for roughly 9-months is still talked about to this day and you have UFC fighters using their music etc etc. Edge & Christian say they get asked about The Brood almost as much as anything else they've done. You consider all that guys like Edge & Christian accomplished in their careers and The Brood was such a blip in the grand scheme, but to a lot of people that moment in time sticks out the most along with their tag work.

 

[scrubadam]

@scrubadam Foley was never supposed to fall through the cage. I don’t know who you’re listening to, but Foley and Taker have both said numerous times that it wasn’t supposed to happen and Taker didn’t even want to continue after the first bump because he was worried.

Vince didn’t even want the first bump to happen, why would he be okay with Foley taking another bump right after through the cage without a gimmicked canvas? It wasn’t a planned bump.

If Foley wasn't supposed to take that bump then its even more ridiculous. First off that means the cage was just shoddy even though they knew they were going to go up there. Thing was giving away the first time the stepped on it.

And they should of then stopped the match after that bump. Even Foley said it was worse than the top of the cell bump. Look how wobbly leg Foley is after that bump.

I still find it a bit odd that the cage was already giving away and if the bump didn't happen what was supposed to happen? After that spot then how do they get back down/into the cage?

 

[JackSlater]

Bumps after that started to be gimmicked. Any shane bump had mats and he was prepared for his falls and took them like a proper stuntman. Same with Owens at Extreme rules. It was a great bump because he hit it clean and there was air mats there to make it safe. What Foley did was insanely dangerous, no one knew it was going to happen (because he lied about it) and it could of killed him. And it also create this myth that all you need to do is fall off something really high and you will be a superstar. It raised the bar to a ridiculous and unfair level for every other wrestler.

And the 2nd bump was even worse, it wasn't a botch he was supposed to fall through it. Just the chair wasn't supposed to hit on the head on the way down. And the way he took the bump (because of the crappy cage and the fact that his brain was knocked for a loop) was extremly dangerous. Look at todays HIAC's and the one Foley was on. They wouldn't have a **** cage like that with 2 300 lbs fighting on top of it.

And it should of stopped. Watch after he gets up from the second bump and the match starts, he can barely stand. Watch the whole match, its cringe worthy. And then foley continued the match taking more bumps and even a tack bump. And the tack bump missed and he ROLLED around in them because it missed. There is no way he was not concussed and what we know about CTE the match should of been over.

Its an amazing spectacle. I think JR's call "as good as my witness he is broken in half" is the greatest call in all of sports. I love the match, I love Mick for his work, I loved the match at the time, but watching it today it makes me queasy. Foley just went above and beyond putting his body on the line and it set the tone for the industry of trying to top the untopable.

As I said I agree that the first bump should have been better prepared for. If Foley took it upon himself to do it though, then it isn't even the company's fault. As already stated and reiterated, the second bump was a botch. The planned bump was much less dangerous but the cage broke in the wrong way. This style was also not overly indicative of the wrestling in the attitude era. If anything the chair shots to the head were a much bigger problem, though both things continued into the subsequent era. I would also note that the encroachment of extreme wrestling preceded the attitude era given FMW in Japan and ECW. I also don't think that anyone is questioning that Foley had a concussion. Whether it should have stopped is a different matter. I will say that Undertaker probably shouldn't have given Foley further head blows after the second bump. Again though this match was an outlier in that or any other era and featured a terrible bump due to an equipment botch. It isn't a match that is indicative of the era.

Also, since the Brood was brought up...

 

[M.C.G. 31]

If Foley wasn't supposed to take that bump then its even more ridiculous. First off that means the cage was just shoddy even though they knew they were going to go up there. Thing was giving away the first time the stepped on it.

And they should of then stopped the match after that bump. Even Foley said it was worse than the top of the cell bump. Look how wobbly leg Foley is after that bump.

I still find it a bit odd that the cage was already giving away and if the bump didn't happen what was supposed to happen? After that spot then how do they get back down/into the cage?

Of course the cage was shoddy. Go back and watch that match. It doesn't look good at all. The NEW HIAC looked shoddy when Ambrose was suplexing Noble and Mercury on top of it, and this one is much better constructed to ensure no one can fall through. The Undertaker and Mick Foley were a combined 700 pounds on top of that. It was shoddy and gave way under Foley's weight.

They should have stopped it. Foley apparently didn't want to. Undertaker was buying time by going after Funk and he wanted the match to be finished and didn't want to go on.

I'm not sure how the match would have progressed to where they returned from on top of the cell, but there are enough accounts from Foley AND Undertaker saying the second bump was never supposed to happen and Undertaker didn't want to continue after the first bump, and Vince didn't even want the first bump to happen in the first place. I remember Mick telling a story where after the match, Vince told him "you have no idea how much I appreciate you for what you've done for this company, but I never want to see anything like that again."

From what I've read, the top of the cage was only supposed to break a little bit so Foley would be "dangling" and Taker would have pushed him down and Foley could have rolled and landed on his knees, but the weight was too much and the bump ended up being horribly botched to the point where a chair even flew down on top of Foley and knocked his tooth through his lip and into his nostril.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

Foley and Funk came up with the idea of a chokeslam and pin on top being the finish. Wanted to set it apart by using the cell in the finish.
Taker in a talking head on a random DVD (can't remember which now) that the cage was shaky after him and Shawn had their first go round in it.

 

[scrubadam]

As I said I agree that the first bump should have been better prepared for. If Foley took it upon himself to do it though, then it isn't even the company's fault. As already stated and reiterated, the second bump was a botch. The planned bump was much less dangerous but the cage broke in the wrong way. This style was also not overly indicative of the wrestling in the attitude era. If anything the chair shots to the head were a much bigger problem, though both things continued into the subsequent era. I would also note that the encroachment of extreme wrestling preceded the attitude era given FMW in Japan and ECW. I also don't think that anyone is questioning that Foley had a concussion. Whether it should have stopped is a different matter. I will say that Undertaker probably shouldn't have given Foley further head blows after the second bump. Again though this match was an outlier in that or any other era and featured a terrible bump due to an equipment botch. It isn't a match that is indicative of the era.

Also, since the Brood was brought up...

What was the planned bump BTW?

I think this match actually is a good representation of the Attitude Era in a nutshell and it is one of the most if not most iconic moments/matchs.

I know that extreme wrestling was around before, but the match and bump became so historic and iconic that it essentially inspired a whole slew of wrestlers to try and do the same. It raised the stakes, and made the idea of a star making "bump". There have been so many attempts to recreate the moment and anyone who falls off a high place after that was thinking about being the next Mick Foley.

And I 100% agree chair shots to the head are even more cringe worthy. I cannot watch old matches with those. I just ask myself why? And so many times the wrestlers don't even put their hands up.

But ya wrestling in the attitude era was a lot of smoke and mirrors, brawling, over the top violence and sick bumps. There wasn't much great technical wrestling until the end of the Era and you got all the WCW and ECW guys coming in like RVD, Benoit, Jerhico, Dean, Gurrero, etc...