Is Schenn a Core Piece?

[Lindberg]

Yeah I just don't see the flyers getting anyone like Duchene until the defense is fixed. I hope this year is the last year of a bad defense otherwise I would expect a big piece to be moved.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Schenn a Core Piece?

Trading TK is not an option as part of deal for Duchene.
Do not think Cousins or Laughton would interest Colo.
Thought maybe Schenn & 1st round pick might interest them.
Schenn does produce points, replaces some that Duchene produced for them.

We could trade Schenn for a 1st round pick +.
Then we could trade 2 1st rounders for Duchene if that interested them.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Then we could trade 2 1st rounders for Duchene if that interested them.

That would be utterly ridiculous for all the reasons we have discussed ad nauseum over the past several months, the main reason being that Duchene barely suits our timeline better than the forwards we already have. There's no reason to start making panic moves just to make the playoffs next season - it would be nice for the kids to get that postseason experience, but it's not the point of what we are doing. The point is to construct a sustainable championship contender.

 

[Tripod]

I advocate trying to pry Duchene away from Colo.
He is a good ES player and will slot in nicely behind Giroux.
Stockpiling more late first round picks is nice for depth, but
we need acquire elite forward talent.
I would offer Schenn & 1st as first offer.
Second offer would be Schenn & D-man either Myers/Hagg.
Colorado may want to shake up their core as well.

Oh good....we trade Schenn and a 1st for 2 years of "going for it' before Simmonds and Duchene can walk as UFA's all while the defense is not fixed and the goaltending is in question.

What could go wrong with that plan?

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Oh good....we trade Schenn and a 1st for 2 years of "going for it' before Simmonds and Duchene can walk as UFA's all while the defense is not fixed and the goaltending is in question.

What could go wrong with that plan?

It is not going for it, its making the product watchable again, while giving some of previous picks time to mature in LV and Juniors.
It could blow up like every plan Holmgren came up with while he was GM.
At some point Hextall needs to address the offensive woes of this team, their defensive reinforcements seem ready.

The other option is to do nothing I hope and pray this offensive mess fixes itself.
That to me is the definition of insanity, lets just put these same under performing players back out again.
Let me see the results, no playoffs again thats a good plan.

 

[Lotusflower]

It is not going for it, its making the product watchable again, while giving some of previous picks time to mature in LV and Juniors.
It could blow up like every plan Holmgren came up with while he was GM.
At some point Hextall needs to address the offensive woes of this team, their defensive reinforcements seem ready.

The other option is to do nothing I hope and pray this offensive mess fixes itself.
That to me is the definition of insanity, lets just put these same under performing players back out again.
Let me see the results, no playoffs again thats a good plan.

We've agreed on a lot of things in this thread but this I dont agree with.

As frustrating as it is patience is key here. We're building a defense that will hopefully be not only elite but will have excess talent to deal when the time is right.

Young D are at a premium always, EDM proved that when they traded Hall. I have little faith in this forward core as currently constructed but once we have a semblance of a legit top 4 D we can look to deal one or even two plus some depth guys in a package to get an elite forward.

In Provy youve got a potential cornerstone D; I personally think Sanheim is the other half of that equation. Those two become the foundation. Then between the rest you can fill in your depth and deal from a place of strength.

Ideally Hex can work some magic and hit a home run with one or all of Konecny/Rubtsov/whoever we draft 2017 to help mitigate the guesswork.

The reason Ive been harping on trading Schenn/Simmonds for futures is, at least in Schenn's case, youre not going to get that home run type of forward in the midst of his prime for a guy like him. It'll have to be a young guy who's yet to prove himself or is stuck behind the depth chart on a good team.

Simmonds is an interesting case as his reputation around the league makes him even more valuable then his actual on ice impact suggests. Maybe we could get an elite young forward for him in a sign and trade perhaps? These are just hypotheticals of course, my gut is that Hex is banking on hitting big on someone in the draft rather than looking to deal

 

[Tripod]

It is not going for it, its making the product watchable again, while giving some of previous picks time to mature in LV and Juniors.
It could blow up like every plan Holmgren came up with while he was GM.
At some point Hextall needs to address the offensive woes of this team, their defensive reinforcements seem ready.

The other option is to do nothing I hope and pray this offensive mess fixes itself.
That to me is the definition of insanity, lets just put these same under performing players back out again.
Let me see the results, no playoffs again thats a good plan.

Your suggested move is a short term fix for a team looking long term.

The defensive reinforcements are "just" ready. Just on the verge of making the NHL. We will have years where they get better and better.

As for the offense, Konecny will get better and we are adding a top SHL player in Lindblom all while we added Flip at the deadline.

I won't be surprised if we trade a Dman for an offensive forward. But it will be once the D is fixed, have a logjam, and still have a pipeline in place. If we are icing Manning and AMac, the defense is not fixed yet.

I get you want to be entertained. For a stretch, this team was worse than the Berube years as far as being watchable. But and moves we make when we trade away a 50 point forward AND a D prospect, needs to one where we get someone for many years....not only 2 before we have to pay them a big contract or lose them for nothing.

 

[Rebels57]

Your suggested move is a short term fix for a team looking long term.

The defensive reinforcements are "just" ready. Just on the verge of making the NHL. We will have years where they get better and better.

As for the offense, Konecny will get better and we are adding a top SHL player in Lindblom all while we added Flip at the deadline.

I won't be surprised if we trade a Dman for an offensive forward. But it will be once the D is fixed, have a logjam, and still have a pipeline in place. If we are icing Manning and AMac, the defense is not fixed yet.

I get you want to be entertained. For a stretch, this team was worse than the Berube years as far as being watchable. But and moves we make when we trade away a 50 point forward AND a D prospect, needs to one where we get someone for many years....not only 2 before we have to pay them a big contract or lose them for nothing.

Yeah I would like to see Konecny 2.0 and Lindblom 1.0 on the team together before deciding on trying to trade for outside talent.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

We've agreed on a lot of things in this thread but this I dont agree with.

As frustrating as it is patience is key here. We're building a defense that will hopefully be not only elite but will have excess talent to deal when the time is right.

Young D are at a premium always, EDM proved that when they traded Hall. I have little faith in this forward core as currently constructed but once we have a semblance of a legit top 4 D we can look to deal one or even two plus some depth guys in a package to get an elite forward.

In Provy youve got a potential cornerstone D; I personally think Sanheim is the other half of that equation. Those two become the foundation. Then between the rest you can fill in your depth and deal from a place of strength.

Ideally Hex can work some magic and hit a home run with one or all of Konecny/Rubtsov/whoever we draft 2017 to help mitigate the guesswork.

The reason Ive been harping on trading Schenn/Simmonds for futures is, at least in Schenn's case, youre not going to get that home run type of forward in the midst of his prime for a guy like him. It'll have to be a young guy who's yet to prove himself or is stuck behind the depth chart on a good team.

Simmonds is an interesting case as his reputation around the league makes him even more valuable then his actual on ice impact suggests. Maybe we could get an elite young forward for him in a sign and trade perhaps? These are just hypotheticals of course, my gut is that Hex is banking on hitting big on someone in the draft rather than looking to deal

I was not suggesting we trade Sanheim + Schenn for Landeskog and/or Duchene, specifically.
Just that Hextall should explore trading a forward to improve the makeup of the team.

The draft at later picks is a crapshoot at some point actual talent trumps potential talent.
But it just seems that possibly drafting another Laughton in this draft is would be of little help to improving the team in the future.
Of course, if a top Dman was drafted, then maybe one of our rookies (not 1st rds) would be expendable in a trade.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Your suggested move is a short term fix for a team looking long term.

The defensive reinforcements are "just" ready. Just on the verge of making the NHL. We will have years where they get better and better.

As for the offense, Konecny will get better and we are adding a top SHL player in Lindblom all while we added Flip at the deadline.

I won't be surprised if we trade a Dman for an offensive forward. But it will be once the D is fixed, have a logjam, and still have a pipeline in place. If we are icing Manning and AMac, the defense is not fixed yet.

I get you want to be entertained. For a stretch, this team was worse than the Berube years as far as being watchable. But and moves we make when we trade away a 50 point forward AND a D prospect, needs to one where we get someone for many years....not only 2 before we have to pay them a big contract or lose them for nothing.

As long as we are not trading our 1st round picks for overpriced vets at the end of their careers,
I am not worried about the long term since we will be restocking the roster.

As a fan I am concerned that the product is not improving and Giroux maybe regressing as a player.

I would bet we will see 2 of Morin, Sanheim, Hagg this year as our third pairing at the least.
I could see all 3 added to the D core, and Amac as 7th man.

Not expecting rookies or sophomore players to break out and become a top scoring threat.
Without increasing our scoring we could end up outside the playoffs again.
Team needs a culture change, need to experience success not accept failure.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't worry about the product being watchable. I worry about maximizing the potential window to win down the road.

 

[baudib1]

The problem with the team continuing to push "the window" further is that you can't add good players fast enough at the current rate (approximately 1.5 per year).

Giroux, even declining, as well as Couturier, Voracek and Simmonds are all capable of being top 6 forwards on a Cup winning team. The youth movement guys have all improved the team, it's time to start filling in the gaps. Having 4-5 of the worst players in the NHL getting big minutes every night at the expense of guys like Cousins or Morin or Hagg is essentially wasting the careers of those veteran players. Signing guys like Dale Weise and Raffl and Bellemare to extensions continue to handicap the team going forward.

Dump the junk, play all the kids, make a move to get a 25-year-old top 6 player. That team can win it all at any time, look at LA or Chicago.

As for Schenn, he's fine in his role and the history of this organization is that it undervalues goal scoring when it comes to talent evaluation. However, he's not a guy who's ideally going to be your top scorer going forward.

 

[Anonymouse]

I read "Is Schenn a Carey Price?"

I'd say yes to that question.

 

[daa5250]

Is there really a big difference between Schenn and Simmonds? Their numbers are almost identical.
Simmonds can PK and is a better leader. That's the only real difference between the two.

Simmonds is a better power forward than Schenn but Simmonds definitely gets a huge pass for his mediocre 5v5 play. Guy had only 20 5v5 points all year ...

 

[Striiker]

He gets a huge pass because total points/goals are all that matters.

 

[daa5250]

He gets a huge pass because total points/goals are all that matters.

Yet Schenn gets vilified for his 5v5 play and scoring yet has been a 25 goal 55+ pt player the last 2 years. Both are mediocre 5v5 players that are very PP reliant.

 

[Striiker]

I can't control what other people complain about.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yet Schenn gets vilified for his 5v5 play and scoring yet has been a 25 goal 55+ pt player the last 2 years. Both are mediocre 5v5 players that are very PP reliant.

True. Schenn finished only 3 points behind Giroux in 3 fewer games played, and had 1 more ES point than Giroux.

Seems odd how Schenn is seen as a fringe core player due to his substandard ES play and reliance on the PP, whereas excuses are made for Giroux's PP reliance.

 

[Tripod]

True. Schenn finished only 3 points behind Giroux in 3 fewer games played, and had 1 more ES point than Giroux.

Seems odd how Schenn is seen as a fringe core player due to his substandard ES play and reliance on the PP, whereas excuses are made for Giroux's PP reliance.

In fairness, the PP runs thru Giroux as the PP QB. He can Replace Schenn in his spot MUCH easier than G in his.

But G still needs to be better at ES....they ALL do.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In fairness, the PP runs thru Giroux as the PP QB. He can Replace Schenn in his spot MUCH easier than G in his.

But G still needs to be better at ES....they ALL do.

True, I suppose, though 25 goal scorers don't grow on trees anymore. But G is also almost paid twice as much as Schenn for scarily equal production, so he's certainly getting a premium for his PP work.

 

[Tripod]

True, I suppose, though 25 goal scorers don't grow on trees anymore. But G is also almost paid twice as much as Schenn for scarily equal production, so he's certainly getting a premium for his PP work.

We all know G is overpaid. Most realize that he was paid that amount because that was the market price at the time for top end players approaching UFA status....see Getzlaf and Perry. We also way underpaid Giroux on his previous contract....3.75 million a year while having 2 top 3 scoring finishes and 2 top 4 Hart finishes.

Schenn is fairly paid. He is paid to be a 50+ point guy and should continue to be one with us.....as long as he stays on the PP.

If Schenn went to PP #2, his points drop. If Giroux went to PP#2, it would become the top unit.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

We all know G is overpaid. Most realize that he was paid that amount because that was the market price at the time for top end players approaching UFA status....see Getzlaf and Perry. We also way underpaid Giroux on his previous contract....3.75 million a year while having 2 top 3 scoring finishes and 2 top 4 Hart finishes.

Schenn is fairly paid. He is paid to be a 50+ point guy and should continue to be one with us.....as long as he stays on the PP.

If Schenn went to PP #2, his points drop. If Giroux went to PP#2, it would become the top unit.

If Giroux went to the second unit it would not become the top unit. It would be a better second unit, but yoit would not out product Voracek, Simmer, Schenn, and probably the Neck, Filp, or Coots. Giroux's points would take a hit on the second unit just like Scehnn's would. Granted, Giroux's dip in points would not be as much as Schenn's, but let's not pretend that Giroux is going to carry that second unit (likely comprised of Raffl and the Neck, Coots, or Filp) and Voracek and Simmer won't be able to produce without him.

 

[Tripod]

If Giroux went to the second unit it would not become the top unit. It would be a better second unit, but yoit would not out product Voracek, Simmer, Schenn, and probably the Neck, Filp, or Coots. Giroux's points would take a hit on the second unit just like Scehnn's would. Granted, Giroux's dip in points would not be as much as Schenn's, but let's not pretend that Giroux is going to carry that second unit (likely comprised of Raffl and the Neck, Coots, or Filp) and Voracek and Simmer won't be able to produce without him.

I am willing to bet a unit of G, Provy, Flip, Couts and Weal would out produce them. Not that we will ever know.

 

[Lindberg]

True, I suppose, though 25 goal scorers don't grow on trees anymore. But G is also almost paid twice as much as Schenn for scarily equal production, so he's certainly getting a premium for his PP work.

Giroux also plays center which is something Schenn can not do. Hopefully the blue line is significantly improved and the things that need to be done will be pretty clear. Next year is really a make or break year in a lot of regards for me.

If this team's ES play does not improve the core should be gutted.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I am willing to bet a unit of G, Provy, Flip, Couts and Weal would out produce them. Not that we will ever know.

So you're telling me you are on a power play with one minute left tie game, you're putting out that lineup out and leaving your two best goal scorers on the bench?