Is Orr the best defenseman of all time defensively? If not - where do you rank him?

[DannyGallivan]

To add to my previous post, here are polls from Orr's prime:

1971 NHL coach's poll: Best defensive defenseman - 3 way tie between Bobby Orr, Al Arbour, Ted Harris
March 13th, 1971 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

1974 NHL coach's poll: Best defensive defenseman: Bill White. Runners up: Borje Salming, Jacques Laperriere, Rod Seiling, Dave Burrows
March 23rd, 1974 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

1976 NHL coach's poll: Best Defensive Defenceman - Larry Robinson. Runners up: Bill White, Denis Potvin, Dave Burrows, Terry Harper
Yes, Orr didn't play a full season in 1975-76, but that didn't stop coaches from voting him as the best skater and high in other categories.
February 21st, 1976 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

That's a fairly weak showing from "the best defensive defenseman of all time"

Read Scotty Bowman's list of top player of all time if you want a real laugh.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Read Scotty Bowman's list of top player of all time if you want a real laugh.

okay?

 

[VanIslander]

Scotty Bowman said Gordie Howe was the greatest player he ever saw and it isn't even close.

Of course, his Habs never had to play Orr in the playoffs and his only encounter in the postseason was with expansion St. Louis in the Finals where Orr got his photographic elite moment in the air following the OT sweep cup-clutching goal. Resentfully biased? Either that, or the greatest coach of all time knows his apples from his oranges.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Scotty Bowman said Gordie Howe was the greatest player he ever saw and it isn't even close.

Of course, his Habs never had to play Orr in the playoffs and his only encounter in the postseason was with expansion St. Louis in the Finals where Orr got his photographic elite moment in the air following the OT sweep cup-clutching goal. Resentfully biased? Either that, or the greatest coach of all time knows his apples from his oranges.

I originally remembered it the same way, but lo and behold...his list of greatest players (well, Canadian players anyways) had Orr number one and Howe number two. However, the list is pretty bad when you dissect it (Maurice Richard at number three? Really???)

My point is that coaches are perhaps too busy at other things than coming up with good lists.

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

 

[Theokritos]

Sorry, but after reading your list either you didn't take my question very seriously or hockey history just ain't your bag. That's fine, if that's the case.

Eh, it's not up to you to decide or even suggest something like that. As the discussion shows, we're far from a consensus here.

Read Scotty Bowman's list of top player of all time if you want a real laugh.

And that invalidates several polls of a multitude of NHL coaches? And contemporary takes on a specific point in time at that, as opposed to an all-time ranking.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Eh, it's not up to you to decide or even suggest something like that. As the discussion shows, we're far from a consensus here.



And that invalidates several polls of a multitude of NHL coaches?

Just an example. And I'm fine with being far from consensus... I'm not fine with somebody randomly picking names out of a hat with little or no thought and saying that they were better defensively than Orr.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm not fine with somebody randomly picking names out of a hat with little or no thought and saying that they were better defensively than Orr.

Perhaps you could ask what the argument is for those players instead of suggesting right away your opponent is "randomly picking names"?

 

[JackSlater]

Sorry, but after reading your list either you didn't take my question very seriously or hockey history just ain't your bag. That's fine, if that's the case. But if tried passing that list off to the posters during the recent "Top 120 Players of All Time" project we did a few months back, you would have been eaten alive by much more knowledgeable hockey historians than myself.

Your post is bizarre if your belief is that those players were random and you still seem to not realize that you are the person with the minority opinion. That you apparently posted in the recent HOH project, [MOD] means nothing. I'm sure that I have s much to learn from you though, so please go through those players (you can put Chara in for the second Pronger, as was my intention) and provide me with the evidence (that you apparently expected) that Orr was a better player defensively. I even kept it easy by avoiding players like Johnson or Hitchman who have big defensive reputations but I can't really assess myself.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I originally remembered it the same way, but lo and behold...his list of greatest players (well, Canadian players anyways) had Orr number one and Howe number two. However, the list is pretty bad when you dissect it (Maurice Richard at number three? Really???)

My point is that coaches are perhaps too busy at other things than coming up with good lists.

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

As much as coaches often make poor hockey historians (mainly due to lack of effort/motivation), is there any better source for evaluating the skillsets of current players?

 

[DannyGallivan]

As much as coaches often make poor hockey historians (mainly due to lack of effort/motivation), is there any better source for evaluating the skillsets of current players?

Tough question, but I think a poll of players who actually face them would be the best. Would love to see that kind of poll... the old "what player is toughest to play against" kind of question.

 

[K Fleur]

You haven’t jumped the shark until people start posting former head coach Wayne Gretzky’s player evaluations.

 

[Theokritos]

Tough question, but I think a poll of players who actually face them would be the best. Would love to see that kind of poll... the old "what player is toughest to play against" kind of question.

That is a fair take. But a poll asking several NHL coaches for their opinion on contemporary players is really something different than an attempt at an all-time ranking by one coach. The latter doesn't invalidate the former.

 

[VanIslander]

Bowman ranks Sakic ahead of Clarke, Shore ahead of Morenz.

THANK YOU!

From what i have read and seen, i agree with Bowman.

His posting Orr first two decades after he said Howe was clearly number one is odd... especially since Orr hadn't played any more games since he said what he said about Howe. But, yeah. We all have moods. We all change opinions.

The thing about Bowman: you don't have to agree with him, but you have to respect his opinion.

(Bowman put Crosby 15th all time. THAT sounds about right.)

 

[JackSlater]

Bowman ranks Sakic ahead of Clarke, Shore ahead of Morenz.

THANK YOU!

From what i have read and seen, i agree with Bowman.

His posting Orr first two decades after he said Howe was clearly number one is odd... especially since Orr hadn't played any more games since he said what he said about Howe. But, yeah. We all have moods. We all change opinions.

The thing about Bowman: you don't have to agree with him, but you have to respect his opinion.

(Bowman put Crosby 15th all time. THAT sounds about right.)

Bowman's list gets shat on often, by me as well, and is by no means perfect but it is very interesting. No one has coached and coached against so many of the best ever, to the point that he's the only person to my knowledge who has coached Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux in a competitive environment. It would be better if we had his actual reasons for most of the picks, but still a very interesting list.

Also of note - shit does not pass the censor, but shat does.

 

[K Fleur]

If I had to coach against a team in the playoffs with Joe Sakic multiple times I’d probably rank him pretty damn high too.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Your post is bizarre if your belief is that those players were random and you still seem to not realize that you are the person with the minority opinion. That you apparently posted in the recent HOH project, [MOD] means nothing. I'm sure that I have s much to learn from you though, so please go through those players (you can put Chara in for the second Pronger, as was my intention) and provide me with the evidence (that you apparently expected) that Orr was a better player defensively. I even kept it easy by avoiding players like Johnson or Hitchman who have big defensive reputations but I can't really assess myself.

You're the one who came up with the list, why do you think they were better than Orr? I've already listed the THN Top Defensive Defensemen list of all time, of which their stable of hockey historians ranked Orr at number one. I could also compare his plus/minus to the players you've compiled.

You could also answer me this... how does one substantiate the greatest defensive defenseman? Stats don't work, at least not as well as they do for offensive defensemen. I've used reports I've read in print and in video for my opinion. I have read the occasional opinion of Harvey perhaps being ahead of Orr defensively, but I can safely say I've never read that about Pronger or most of the players you listed.

 

[JackSlater]

You're the one who came up with the list, why do you think they were better than Orr? I've already listed the THN Top Defensive Defensemen list of all time, of which their stable of hockey historians ranked Orr at number one. I could also compare his plus/minus to the players you've compiled.

You could also answer me this... how does one substantiate the greatest defensive defenseman? Stats don't work, at least not as well as they do for offensive defensemen. I've used reports I've read in print and in video for my opinion. I have read the occasional opinion of Harvey perhaps being ahead of Orr defensively, but I can safely say I've never read that about Pronger or most of the players you listed.

I think that they were better defensively in most cases because I've seen them play defence and I think that they did it better than Orr did, though I admit in Harvey's case that it's mainly due to his reputation as probably the best defensive defenceman of all time. Orr never got to the stage where he would slow down and focus more on defence, as players like Bourque and Potvin did, and it hurts him in a defensive ranking. I'm sure that I've read pretty much everything you have and I've seen enough of the players to have an informed opinion. I also suggest that you look at some threads from this very forum detailing who the greatest defensive defencemen are, because many of the players you consider "random" feature very prominently.

I'd love for you to point out which of the defencemen I listed is "random" in a list of greatest defensive defencemen ever. Pronger is probably the weakest case but even then I'm sure that his defensive peak is higher than Orr's.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I think that they were better defensively in most cases because I've seen them play defence and I think that they did it better than Orr did, though I admit in Harvey's case that it's mainly due to his reputation as probably the best defensive defenceman of all time. Orr never got to the stage where he would slow down and focus more on defence, as players like Bourque and Potvin did, and it hurts him in a defensive ranking. I'm sure that I've read pretty much everything you have and I've seen enough of the players to have an informed opinion. I also suggest that you look at some threads from this very forum detailing who the greatest defensive defencemen are, because many of the players you consider "random" feature very prominently.

I'd love for you to point out which of the defencemen I listed is "random" in a list of greatest defensive defencemen ever. Pronger is probably the weakest case but even then I'm sure that his defensive peak is higher than Orr's.

Wow...
Okay then. It's been an experience discussing this with you. Have a great weekend.

 

[JackSlater]

Wow...
Okay then. It's been an experience discussing this with you. Have a great weekend.

I'm still waiting to see which of the listed defencemen is "random" in this context. Where is the list?

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm still waiting to see which of the listed defencemen is "random" in this context. Where is the list?

Since you provided zero evidence or even anecdotal mentions of why any of those players were better defensively than Orr, I'd say your list was quite random... or at least a bunch of names that you happen to think may have been better defensively than Orr. Perhaps it's because it's hard for some to comprehend how such a great offensive defenseman could also be so good defensively (here's a hint... skating helped). Anyways, it's time to go, and I won't be logging in again until Monday. As I said, it's been quite the experience...

 

[JackSlater]

Since you provided zero evidence or even anecdotal mentions of why any of those players were better defensively than Orr, I'd say your list was quite random... or at least a bunch of names that you happen to think may have been better defensively than Orr. Perhaps it's because it's hard for some to comprehend how such a great offensive defenseman could also be so good defensively (here's a hint... skating helped). Anyways, it's time to go, and I won't be logging in again until Monday. As I said, it's been quite the experience...

So, you put your foot in your mouth and you now won't back it up. Got it [MOD]

Your strawman regarding offensive ability is also noted and looks pretty stupid when I already praised some top offensive defencemen, Orr included, for their defensive play. Hard to keep track of these things when you're busy backpedaling I guess.

 

[FerrisRox]

Just an example. And I'm fine with being far from consensus... I'm not fine with somebody randomly picking names out of a hat with little or no thought and saying that they were better defensively than Orr.

Just because you claim they are random, doesn't make it so. It's his opinion. This whole place is opinions. (mod)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sorry, but after reading your list either you didn't take my question very seriously or hockey history just ain't your bag. That's fine, if that's the case. But if tried passing that list off to the posters during the recent "Top 120 Players of All Time" project we did a few months back, you would have been eaten alive by much more knowledgeable hockey historians than myself.

Top 120 players is not the same as best defense from a defenseman, is it?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

To add to my previous post, here are polls from Orr's prime:

1971 NHL coach's poll: Best defensive defenseman - 3 way tie between Bobby Orr, Al Arbour, Ted Harris
March 13th, 1971 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

1974 NHL coach's poll: Best defensive defenseman: Bill White. Runners up: Borje Salming, Jacques Laperriere, Rod Seiling, Dave Burrows
March 23rd, 1974 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

1976 NHL coach's poll: Best Defensive Defenceman - Larry Robinson. Runners up: Bill White, Denis Potvin, Dave Burrows, Terry Harper
Yes, Orr didn't play a full season in 1975-76, but that didn't stop coaches from voting him as the best skater and high in other categories.
February 21st, 1976 NHL Coaches Poll - Toronto Star

That's a fairly weak showing from "the best defensive defenseman of all time"

Because the category is "Best defensive defenseman" could some coaches have taken the stand that Orr was not a defensive defenseman? Hence they could give the other Dmen a little credit.

Just a thought to back a certain agenda.

 

[The Panther]

The question is a bit unfair, because who would want Orr to focus entirely on defense? Only an idiot coach [MOD] would try to do that. Since Orr was big, fast, and strong, and since his hockey IQ and skill-levels were off the charts, I'm 100% certain he could have been the best stay-at-home, defensive defenceman (which is way easier than being a two-way) of his era.