Agreed. Though I have Skjei as our #1 because I value defenders a little higher than wingers.
Is Jimmy Vesey our #1 Prospect?
- Thread starter FLYLine27*
- Start date
Agreed. Though I have Skjei as our #1 because I value defenders a little higher than wingers.
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
buch is 1. high end skill set and top line scoring winger upside.
shestyorkin is 2. #1 net minder ability and a #1 job waiting for him in a few years perhaps ?
i have them both 1 and 2 since the ceiling is the highest for both of those players.
skjei 3. most nhl ready of all the "prospects" even though in my mind he's graduated. top 4 defensive dman for sure with sublime skating.
vesey 4. safe (older) top 6 scoring winger with high end hockey iq and the ability to shoot the puck with purpose. kind of the player we wish kreider would morph into. smart (we wish !) and dangerous with the puck.
AIexisLafreniereNYR
Registered Drug User
FLYLine27*
BUCH
10 months older than Skjei. Not much of a difference.
Highly disagree with shestyorkin being at #2. He is still very much a question mark. Sure he has great potential but that alone IMO doesn't rank him our 2nd prospect. He really needs to play in the KHL this season and by play, i mean not sit on the bench for more than half the season.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Agreed, I wouldn't rank Shestyorkin at number 2. He has the potential to shoot up the rankings this season, but we'll need to see how things play out.
Frankly, most of our goalie prospects have a shot to be fast risers this season.
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
fair enough. everyone has their own set of standards.
the higher the ceiling = the highest rated prospect.
both russians have the "blue chip" label imo.
skjei and vesey do not. both are solid prospects for sure but lack that sizzle.
this very site has the 2 russians rated as 8.0C as of 5/16, so I'm not the only one who share this opinion.
in fact, there will be a wave off young russion goalies the next few years. names like samsonov and sorokin are considered potential starter material and vasilevskiy in tampa is legit and 1 injury away to big ben to becoming their starter.
SlapshotTheMovie
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2013
- 3,101
- 1,174
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
On what planet is Shesty a "blue chip" prospect? He's a very good goalie prospect, but blue chip? No. I get that he's Russian and that means that he's the greatest ever or something, but give me a break. If he was putting up his VHL numbers in the KHL, sure. But he's not. He's putting up solid but not amazing KHL numbers.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
He needs to play more in the KHL to warrant being ranked #2. I like what I see in world competition and his VHL numbers are excellent, but the VHL is against garbage competition.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Agreed. I want to see how he does in a larger sample size where he's not significantly better than the level competition he's facing and how he responds when things get rough.
That's one area I gave Halverson points for last year. He adjusted and he overcame. I like seeing that in a goaltending prospect.
Beacon
Embrace the tank
- May 28, 2007
- 13,676
- 1,454
Graves is easily in the top 5. The kid has huge potential. He's big, he can skate, pass, shoot, defend, hit. He just makes rookie mistakes.
People view Skjei as a top prospect while Graves is an afterthought, but Graves has a higher ceiling, though a lower floor. Skjei will be nice and steady, but won't wow. Maybe something like a more mobile Staal, but not as good as McDonaugh. Graves has the potential to take over games, to be a #1 defenseman.
Graves is a year younger than Skjei and came out of the Juniors, not college which has more mature players, but I'm really not sure if the 21 year old Graves this year will be any worse than the 21 year old Skjei was last year.
People view Skjei as a top prospect while Graves is an afterthought, but Graves has a higher ceiling, though a lower floor. Skjei will be nice and steady, but won't wow. Maybe something like a more mobile Staal, but not as good as McDonaugh. Graves has the potential to take over games, to be a #1 defenseman.
Graves is a year younger than Skjei and came out of the Juniors, not college which has more mature players, but I'm really not sure if the 21 year old Graves this year will be any worse than the 21 year old Skjei was last year.
FLYLine27*
BUCH
NHL.com ranks our prospects:
1. Vesey
2. Skjei
3. Buch
https://www.nhl.com/news/new-york-rangers-top-prospects-30-in-30/c-281374316?tid=281244176
I've seen Vesey ranked all over 1 through 3.
1. Vesey
2. Skjei
3. Buch
https://www.nhl.com/news/new-york-rangers-top-prospects-30-in-30/c-281374316?tid=281244176
I've seen Vesey ranked all over 1 through 3.
I'm not sure Graves has the higher ceiling, or where that belief comes from. It seems to me that the org. Is higher on skjei. Why do you think graves could be better?
FLYLine27*
BUCH
I don't agree. Skjei absolutely, IMO, has the higher ceiling. Skjei has top pairing defenseman written all over him, while I think Graves is in a tier below him topping out as a very good #3 dman.
I do agree that he is easily in the top 5 though.
- Sep 1, 2010
- 9,804
- 7,683
I love Graves' potential - size, skill, shot, edge...
I believe his 2 seasons playing top-4 for Memorial Cup contenders really built up his maturity and readiness.
But until I see him, Vesey, Buch, Shesty, Halvy (or any one) on NHL ice for a few games, you're never sure if they'll handle that next step.
So Skjei is secure at top of my list for now
Beacon
Embrace the tank
- May 28, 2007
- 13,676
- 1,454
If you visit the Hartford thread, you know that I watch almost all the games. I'm about equally as likely to miss a Rangers game as a Pack game. My opinion is based on what I saw and judged, and whether you trust it or not is obviously up to you.
Skjei is a safe guy. He skates well and has a terrific vision. He's also smart for a rookie, but that's in part because he's a year older than Graves and college players usually come in with a more mature game than Junior boys.
Graves, on the other hand, makes more mistakes, he looked outright lost some games. But there were games where you'd be left speechless by how dominant he was. He can skate, he is big (though needs to hit more), he shoots like Al MacInnis, he can pass, he is just a huge factor in all 3 zones plus he can PP and PK.
Skjei has a second pair ceiling and a third pair floor. Graves has a first pair ceiling, but if he doesn't become more consistent, will wind up a AAAA player. That said, the guy was a 20-year-old rookie, inconsistency is the norm. That's like looking at a 10-year-old and saying he's only 5-feet, so if he doesn't grow he'll be short: that's technically true, but he's taller than most kids his age and no reason to believe he will stop growing at such a young age.
In the case of Graves, according to Chris Drury, when he came to the Development Camp a month ago "he was mature, he looked like he came back on even more of a mission, was bigger and stronger and his skating continues to improve."
I don't know what the organization is thinking, nobody really does. On the one hand, they chose Graves over Skjei (and all others) to represent the team in the AHL All Star Game. On the other, they called up Skjei. That kind of comfirms my belief: Graves has more tools that could be used playing against AHL's top guys, but Skjei is safer and when you want a rookie to step in for a few games midseason and make no mistakes (because the coaches don't have the time to waste giving special attention to someone up for only a cup of coffee), that's what makes sense.
EDIT: In the AHL All Star Game, Graves shot was so hard that in the history of the NHL hardest shot competition, only superstars Zdeno Chara, Shea Webber and Al Iafrate ever shot it harder.Even MacInnis never shot as hard as Graves. This is from a 6-foot-5 230 pound monster as big as Dylan McIlrath. Think about that one for a minute.
Last edited:
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think Graves has components of his game that, if developed, tend to stand out a little more.
But I'm not sure his upside is necessarily higher than Skjei. But if both guys hit their potential, they're not terribly far off. I think Skjei is safer and more steady at this point, Graves can be more physically imposing and probably has more untapped offensive potential.
Push comes to shove, I don't think either guy projects as a top pairing guy. But, that could be less about them and more about who they develop chemistry with.
But I'm not sure his upside is necessarily higher than Skjei. But if both guys hit their potential, they're not terribly far off. I think Skjei is safer and more steady at this point, Graves can be more physically imposing and probably has more untapped offensive potential.
Push comes to shove, I don't think either guy projects as a top pairing guy. But, that could be less about them and more about who they develop chemistry with.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
- May 30, 2013
- 42,962
- 18,380
Skjei seems like the type where you want him with high performing d-men as a compliment.
Graves is weird. Every year he does more than expected. Has been since we drafted him.
Beacon
Embrace the tank
- May 28, 2007
- 13,676
- 1,454
But again, Skjei is a year plus two months older than Graves. At this age, it matters. Plus, the Juniors are for 16-20 year olds, while college is for 18-24 year olds. Late teens have key roles on Junior teams, but are usually bench warmers in college (even Kreider was). Skjei playing in college means he got a ton of experience against 21-24 year olds, almost the same as in the minors: The average age of an AHL player to start the season was 24 years and 2 months.
The AHL is a better league than NCAA, but we are talking about playing against physically developed, more mature young men rather than teenage boys whose primary life concern is finding a way to lose their virginity.
I want to see how Graves does this season now that he has had some time playing against adults. The last huge beast with a superstar shot and good mobility who was drafted in the mid-rounds worked out pretty well, but even with Chara, it took him until 21 to make the NHL as a lower-end player, and until 25 to become a star.
offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
i play attention to his mhl numbers only. val is lowest junior league. mhl is major junior equivalent. khl numbers ? he was 19 last year. geez.
he's 20 now. how many 20 yr old goalies are there in the nhl putting up those kind of numbers ? and if they were, would you then consider them a blue chip prospect ? laughable.
kids 20. his competition is the mhl. he's been stellar.
khl is close to the nhl talent wise.
major junior and ncaa is similar to the mhl
look at his mhl numbers.
hes 20 yrs old. you want him to post the numbers below, which he's done in russias top junior league with top end talent, in the 2nd best league in the world before you consider him blue chip. seriously ? his mhl numbers are fantastic. he's posting stupid good numbers actually.
2013 mhl 15g 2.10 gaa .913 % as a 17 yr old.
2014 mhl 23g 1.42 gaa .947% at 18 yrs old.
2015 mhl 3g 2.26 gaa .934 %
2016 mhl 2g 1.51 gaa .946%
he's played 43 games in the mhl and his gaa is something near 1.8 with a save % of .940
his international play numbers are equally impressive.
his 2015 u20 numbers were stupid good and against top notch international competition.
12 games 1.61 ga .945 % right in line with his mhl numbers.
he's clearly the top goalie prospect. halverson is also very good and adam huska may well pass halverson.
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
- Jul 11, 2012
- 13,689
- 1,480
I'm just happy we ended up with Vesey solely because of how many assets we've traded
between the 2013-2016 1st and 2nd rounders we've traded, + Saarela and Duclair, it really helps to have Buch, Hayes, Vesey, and some other minor RFA's like Paliotta and Jooris
between the 2013-2016 1st and 2nd rounders we've traded, + Saarela and Duclair, it really helps to have Buch, Hayes, Vesey, and some other minor RFA's like Paliotta and Jooris
Last edited:
Highly skeptical that Graves has #1 potential but I'd be happy to be wrong. He'd be getting a lot more buzz if he was flashing that potential
e: I guess I'd put it this way, while he has a lot of intriguing tools, I feel that it will take a huge progression in pretty much of all of them to reach #1 D status. It's not unprecedented for a guy to continue to develop far beyond what was initially projected, but it's not common. I'm definitely very interested in his development though
Last edited:
