Speculation: Is it Skjei or Pesce on the Canes trading block?

[SeanMoneyHands]

Skjei to the Pens. They badly need a top pairing LHD.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Yeah I think that's fair, although I don't think he's necessarily our odd man out. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Chat is still ahead of him right now. If a D gets moved that solves that but if we keep this group I think they'll both rotate about evenly, probably with other vets getting some games off to rest throughout the season.

I think that depends a lot on the PP. If the Canes really think Tony can help the PP, then having a guy sit out 50% (ish) of the games doesn't allow for the PP unit to become, and stay cohesive. If Tony does well on the PP, I don't see him subbing out evenly with Chat.

I agree that if we keep all these guys, giving some vets a night off here and there might be likely. Also, there will be injuries (hopefully nothing long term).

 

[Tact]

Would any forwards on the Canucks interest the Canes for Pesce?

 

[spockBokk]

Would any forwards on the Canucks interest the Canes for Pesce?

JT Miller

 

[Tact]

JT Miller

Don’t do this again.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Would any forwards on the Canucks interest the Canes for Pesce?

Vancouver’s problem is Pesce’s M-NTC.

Generally no though. EP and Kuzmenko would be the only forwards of interest. Neither are moving so we are where we are.

 

[Schemp]

I think either 1 added could get the Coyotes into the playoffs, but unfortunately the ask would probably be Maccelli.

 

[DavidBL]

I'd love to see Pesce in Anaheim I'm just not sure there is a deal that makes sense for both teams.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I think either 1 added could get the Coyotes into the playoffs, but unfortunately the ask would probably be Maccelli.

Hayton may also be an intriguing piece for Carolina. With how high the Yotes are on Conor Geekie, I could see the Canes at least inquiring about Hayton in a potential Pesce trade.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Carolina’s lineup is pretty full; Teravainen is primed for a 3rd or even 4th line role, depending on coaches’ preference of the makeup of the Staal line.

The whole thing about a roster player is myopic. A future can be flipped directly or indirectly for the finishing piece in season. Team situations do change. A Pavel Buchenich likely isn’t available right now, but 6 months from now, if the Blues are sideways….

 

[AndreRoy]

Top to bottom it's probably the best ever assembled in the cap era.

It’s definitely solid but the Lightning with Hedman, McDonagh, Cernak, Sergachev, Rutta, and (pick whichever other RD you want from the last several years) were better.

 

[WreckingCrew]

It’s definitely solid but the Lightning with Hedman, McDonagh, Cernak, Sergachev, Rutta, and (pick whichever other RD you want from the last several years) were better.

Not sure I agree there...Hedman is clearly the best of the group, but I'd put Slavin-Burns ahead of McD at that point in his career, then Orlov, then Skjei-Pesce probably equal to Cernak-Sergy, and Chatty > Rutta

 

[AndreRoy]

Not sure I agree there...Hedman is clearly the best of the group, but I'd put Slavin-Burns ahead of McD at that point in his career, then Orlov, then Skjei-Pesce probably equal to Cernak-Sergy, and Chatty > Rutta

With respect I think you’re drastically underestimating just how good both McD and Cernak were. McD started to fall off in his last season in Tampa and Cernak’s suffered through a lot of injuries, but in the championship years they were an absolute monster of a shutdown pairing. McD in particular would have been the 1D on almost any other team and was actually a bigger factor than Hedman in one of those Cups.

I’d rank the McD of that time easily ahead of Slavin-Burns and Cernak either equal with them or at the very least just below them. Serg’s probably in the right spot, and Rutta while nothing special as an individual was a perfect stay-at-home partner for Hedman and had the best chemistry with him of anyone since Stralman left; he was by no means a weak link and his solid defensive play was a major factor in freeing Hedman to be more aggressive.

Looking at pairings rather than individuals I’d take Hedman-Rutta and McD-Cernak over any of Carolina’s duos. Serg spent a good amount of time opposite Hedman in offensive situations and I’d take that combination over any of Carolina’s pairings as well, but Serg-(let’s say Shatty) while great offensively could sometimes be a bit of an adventure defensively; still as a third pairing they were the envy of the league.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

The argument for keeping Skjei long term to me is about him being a more mobile skater so he’s likely to age a bit better. There’s no comparison as defenders to me, Pesce is the poop but he has become a stiffer skater the last couple of years. He was always ganglier and less graceful than Slavin. Could be just battling injuries and he’ll be fine. I would 100% prefer to keep Pesce. I say that having no faith that Nikishin will live up to his hype. We are a team that prefers solid defensive play that typically comes from veterans, there’s no guarantee the kid will be able to defend to the level Rod would require so that Nikishin will be in a position to exceed from the get go. He’s an unknown until he’s here doing it.

Pesce looked like he was fighting it against the Islanders and especially against Florida and their speed in the playoffs.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

With respect I think you’re drastically underestimating just how good both McD and Cernak were. McD started to fall off in his last season in Tampa and Cernak’s suffered through a lot of injuries, but in the championship years they were an absolute monster of a shutdown pairing. McD in particular would have been the 1D on almost any other team and was actually a bigger factor than Hedman in one of those Cups.

I’d rank the McD of that time easily ahead of Slavin-Burns and Cernak either equal with them or at the very least just below them. Serg’s probably in the right spot, and Rutta while nothing special as an individual was a perfect stay-at-home partner for Hedman and had the best chemistry with him of anyone since Stralman left; he was by no means a weak link and his solid defensive play was a major factor in freeing Hedman to be more aggressive.

Looking at pairings rather than individuals I’d take Hedman-Rutta and McD-Cernak over any of Carolina’s duos. Serg spent a good amount of time opposite Hedman in offensive situations and I’d take that combination over any of Carolina’s pairings as well, but Serg-(let’s say Shatty) while great offensively could sometimes be a bit of an adventure defensively; still as a third pairing they were the envy of the league.

I mean you do you, but I don’t think you’ll find many people to agree with your assessment of the McD/Cernak/Serg vs Slavin/Burns and co.

 

[AndreRoy]

I mean you do you, but I don’t think you’ll find many people to agree with your assessment of the McD/Cernak/Serg vs Slavin/Burns and co.

People have short memories. Both have declined since then which is probably what is impairing your judgement, but at the time McD and Cernak were the best shutdown pairing in the league and McD easily would have been the 1D on the vast majority of teams. And you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think every other team in the league wished it could have the luxury of two legitimate 1Ds (one of them the best defenseman in the NHL), or the likes of Serg and Shattenkirk playing on the bottom pairing.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

People have short memories. Both have declined since then which is probably what is impairing your judgement, but at the time McD and Cernak were the best shutdown pairing in the league and McD easily would have been the 1D on the vast majority of teams. And you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think every other team in the league wished it could have the luxury of two legitimate 1Ds (one of them the best defenseman in the NHL), or the likes of Serg and Shattenkirk playing on the bottom pairing.

This sentence below is just kind of insane…

I’d rank the McD of that time easily ahead of Slavin-Burns and Cernak either equal with them or at the very least just below them

The rest of your post may or may not be fine but it’s hard to take in much after that.

 

[AndreRoy]

This sentence below is just kind of insane…

I’d rank the McD of that time easily ahead of Slavin-Burns and Cernak either equal with them or at the very least just below them

The rest of your post may or may not be fine but it’s hard to take in much after that.

The results speak for themselves. McD and Cernak shut down the opposition and the Lightning won two Cups because of it; once they started to fall off (McD due to age and Cernak from all his many injuries) the team was nowhere nearly as dominant and they couldn’t get it done.

The only insanity here is your not recognizing how great McDonagh especially was at that time - some years he actually outplayed Hedman in the regular and/or postseason. He was a critical part of the most dominant blue line in the league - arguably THE critical part from a defensive perspective as his presence allowed Hedman to take on a more offensively-oriented role.

Now if you want to argue that Cernak was at least to some extent a product of playing with McD and that I’m therefore overrating him as an individual then I could understand that - I’m not sure I would agree with you, but I could at least understand how someone unfamiliar with Cernak’s game might think that. But to deny that McDonagh was a monster defenseman at that time and a legitimate 1D on just about any team, or that the shutdown pairing of McDonagh and Cernak was an enormous factor in the success of the best team of the past decade, makes it difficult to take anything you say about hockey seriously.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

The results speak for themselves. McD and Cernak shut down the opposition and the Lightning won two Cups because of it; once they started to fall off (McD due to age and Cernak from all his many injuries) the team was nowhere nearly as dominant and they couldn’t get it done.

The only insanity here is your not recognizing how great McDonagh especially was at that time - some years he actually outplayed Hedman in the regular and/or postseason. He was a critical part of the most dominant blue line in the league - arguably THE critical part from a defensive perspective as his presence allowed Hedman to take on a more offensively-oriented role.

Now if you want to argue that Cernak was at least to some extent a product of playing with McD and that I’m therefore overrating him as an individual then I could understand that - I’m not sure I would agree with you, but I could at least understand how someone unfamiliar with Cernak’s game might think that. But to deny that McDonagh was a monster defenseman at that time and a legitimate 1D on just about any team, or that the shutdown pairing of McDonagh and Cernak was an enormous factor in the success of the best team of the past decade, makes it difficult to take anything you say about hockey seriously.

Calling McD an elite 1D is one thing. I might not rate him quite that high but I won’t deny he was an excellent defender for a long time. He was absolutely a very good 1D for a good stretch. I think calling him ‘easily above Slavin/Burns’ is quite silly though.

The Cernak take is absolutely wild though. Slavin is a top 10D in the league and a Burns is a monster in his own right. Cernak doesn’t touch that past present or future.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Peak Jaccob Slavin made Tony DeAngelo look like a top pairing defenseman. That speaks for itself.

 

[bobc222]

The results speak for themselves. McD and Cernak shut down the opposition and the Lightning won two Cups because of it; once they started to fall off (McD due to age and Cernak from all his many injuries) the team was nowhere nearly as dominant and they couldn’t get it done.

The only insanity here is your not recognizing how great McDonagh especially was at that time - some years he actually outplayed Hedman in the regular and/or postseason. He was a critical part of the most dominant blue line in the league - arguably THE critical part from a defensive perspective as his presence allowed Hedman to take on a more offensively-oriented role.

Now if you want to argue that Cernak was at least to some extent a product of playing with McD and that I’m therefore overrating him as an individual then I could understand that - I’m not sure I would agree with you, but I could at least understand how someone unfamiliar with Cernak’s game might think that. But to deny that McDonagh was a monster defenseman at that time and a legitimate 1D on just about any team, or that the shutdown pairing of McDonagh and Cernak was an enormous factor in the success of the best team of the past decade, makes it difficult to take anything you say about hockey seriously.

I wonder if there was any other factor that elevated McD and Cernak during that period...

Sure they may have put up great defense, but both are defensive minded, playing in front of the best goalie in the world at the time, with the best offense in the league who had the puck more often than not.

Meanwhile, during those Lightning cup years, Slavin put up equally impressive defensive stats from a goals surrendered, zone entry denial, controlled transition and quality chances surrendered. Except he did it without the luxury of the best goalie in the league, without a defensive minded partner and without the best offense in the league dominating possession to begin with.

McD was great during those cup runs, but Slavin was other worldly.

 

[emptyNedder]

equally impressive defensive stats from a goals surrendered, zone entry denial, controlled transition and quality chances surrendered.

Do you subscribe to some statistic sites--because I can't find those stats on public sites. If you would share those stats for all the D involved, that would be much appreciated.

What is available is GA/60 on Hockey-Reference. In Tampa's two Cup Seasons 19-20 and 20-21, Pesce and Slavin were pretty interchangeable in 19/20, but Pesce was otherworldly in 20/21:


19/20: Slavin EV = 2.5, PK = 6.7. Pesce EV = 2.7, PK = 5.5

20/21: Slavin EV = 2.5, PK = 5.9. Pesce EV = 1.9, PK = 4.9

 

[Stickpucker]

The results speak for themselves. McD and Cernak shut down the opposition and the Lightning won two Cups because of it; once they started to fall off (McD due to age and Cernak from all his many injuries) the team was nowhere nearly as dominant and they couldn’t get it done.

While TB has a great defense I don't think TB won those cups b/c their defense.

Vasilevsky being the undisputed #1 goalie in the league along with Kuchevov and Point going god mode has more to do with it imo.

Carolina's D is championship caliber. Their goalies have been good enough and not let them down. The forwards aren't doing anything close to Kuchverov/Point and to a lesser extent Stamkos.

 

[bobc222]

Do you subscribe to some statistic sites--because I can't find those stats on public sites. If you would share those stats for all the D involved, that would be much appreciated.

What is available is GA/60 on Hockey-Reference. In Tampa's two Cup Seasons 19-20 and 20-21, Pesce and Slavin were pretty interchangeable in 19/20, but Pesce was otherworldly in 20/21:


19/20: Slavin EV = 2.5, PK = 6.7. Pesce EV = 2.7, PK = 5.5

20/21: Slavin EV = 2.5, PK = 5.9. Pesce EV = 1.9, PK = 4.9

Corey S, allthreezones tracks it (you need a password to access the tableau visualizations) though he often tweets out some graphs. He didn't tweet out the player cards but did share a zone entry denial chart showing Car and Tbl as the top 2 teams in zone entry denial.

Yeah Pesce is great defensively as well, facing lesser comp at the time. Again though, I'd be astonished if anyone would take McD or Cernak over Slavin