Is having "the best goalie in the world" overrated?

[OvermanKingGainer]

I think having elite goaltending was important before the 2005 Lockout. I think:

A) the gap between a bad goalie and a great one was more significant back then where the position was still being figured out. Goalie coaches weren't as common and techniques weren't as refined.

B) The old rules allowed Brodeur to dominate. Now with the trapezoid, all our best puck handling goalies are neutralized by corner dump-ins. Brodeur was never really the same after the Trapezoid.

C) Teams with the best rosters often had the best goalie without a cap.

Roy in Colorado.
Hasek in Detroit.
Belfour in Dallas.

Those were great teams from top to bottom. How many of those complete rosters at the ages those players were are plausible with a Salary cap?

But more recently, I wonder. Obviously there's a gap between Carey Price and, for instance a below average starter like MAF. But it doesn't seem to really matter because the gap is small enough that a MAF can get a bit hot for two series and a price can get slightly cold, and that's all you need to tip the scales. Whereas before better goalies were simply better, I feel now, better goalies are simply more consistent which I don't think is the same thing. An average goalie in 1986 couldn't regularly make the saves Roy could. These days, I think many guys buried in the AHL can make the saves the best goalies can.

Consistency? Sure, it's useful if you can't outscore your problems. But if you can, then all you really need is a win in 16 out of 28 playoff games. The sample size is just too small for "consistency" to matter.

Take all of the above, and that's how we see something like 2015 Tampa Bay reducing Hart / Lindsey / Vezina Price to a .896 goalie. I don't think Price was necessarily as bad in that series as the stat say. But that goes to show that points A, B, and C all contributed to his struggles in that series.

Here's a list of Vezina finalists VS SC finalists over the last decade:

Year|Vezina 1st|Vezina 2nd|Vezina 3rd|SC Winner|SC Runner-up.
2006|Kipprusoff|Brodeur|Lundqvist|Ward|Roloson
2007|Brodeur|Luongo|Kipprusoff|Giguere|Emery
2008|Brodeur|Nabakov|Lundqvist|Osgood|Fleury
2009|Thomas|Mason|Backstrom|Fleury|Osgood
2010|Miller|Bryzgalov|Brodeur|Niemi|Leighton
2011| Thomas |Rinne| Luongo | Thomas | Luongo
2012|Lundqvist| Quick |Rinne| Quick |Brodeur
2013|Bobrovsky|Lundqvist|Niemi|Crawford|Rask
2014|Rask|Varlamov|Bishop|Quick|Lundqvist
2015|Price|Rinne|Dubnyk|Crawford|Bishop
2016|Holtby|Bishop|Quick|Murray|Jones

And it doesn't seem this year's results will be much different.

Click to read more...

 

[bigtim1988]

Yea I think it might be.

Nowadays, it seems as if being a good goaltender is based more on good positioning/ smart decision making, coupled with good team defense, and not so much on skill.

Teams with solid team defense can make a below average starter look above average.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

An elite goalie is not a guarantee to win, but teams will have a hard time making it to the Cup final, let alone the conference final without very good goaltending.

Looking at this year as an example, goaltending was the difference in ANA/NSH. NSH and PITs both got amazing goaltending in the playoffs. Anderson had some stinkers for Ottawa, but in a majority of their wins he was lights out and he legit stole some very important games in every series. Ottawa almost stole the series against Pittsburgh on the strength of Anderson's final two games.

Look at MTL in 15-16 with Condon in net vs them with Price in net. That might be the best example of what elite goaltending can do for a team.

Even looking at your chart, I'm willing to guess that a majority of the teams from the last 5 or so years that made the cup final did so with a goalie putting up at the very least above average 920 type numbers.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

No. Just no.

The best goalie in the world won't win the cup by himself but he keeps dragging Montreal into the playoffs.

 

[Maukkis]

Murray and his 13 games of NHL experience prior to last year's cup run suggest that you don't necessarily need a Vezina candidate to win. On the other hand, the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[TaLoN]

Absolutely yes. Better off with an above avg Goaltender and spend the big bucks on the prime skaters... preferably great centers and defensemen.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

You can't win with Calgary's goaltending

Do you need an elite goaltender? No. Does it help to have one? Absolutely?

Montreal has the best goaltender in the world, they have never won because they lack balance. They have never put an elite offensive player with Price and Subban/Weber.

Rangers had the king, but no legit #1C or D.

The key is balance. I think Price makes Montreal good enough that they can win if they pick up a guy like Duchene.

 

[Mickey Marner]

First, "Brodeur was never really the same after the Trapezoid" is false.

Second, spending 7, 8, 9 million on a goalie is a poor allocation of funds.

 

[Hisch13r]

First, "Brodeur was never really the same after the Trapezoid" is false.

Second, spending 7, 8, 9 million on a goalie is a poor allocation of funds.

It is pretty funny he said that considering he won half of his Vezina's post trapezoid

 

[Its a Trap]

What nonsense. Brodeur's best season was after the lockout and rule changes.

Do you need an elite goaltender? No. Does it give you a crazy edge in the playoffs? Absolutely, he can win a series on his own if need be.

 

[LeafFever]

Yes. The consensus top 3-5 goalies have a combined 0 Stanley cups.
The current move seems to be getting a solid 1B or backup to be a starter (Talbot, Andersen, Jones, ETC).
You do not need a top goalie to win a cup.

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

Yes. The consensus top 3-5 goalies have a combined 0 Stanley cups.
The current move seems to be getting a solid 1B or backup to be a starter (Talbot, Andersen, Jones, ETC).
You do not need a top goalie to win a cup.

None of the goalies listed have won the cup...

Price would win the cup if he had a decent team in front of him. He carries that team!

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

From a Habs fans perspective, it certainly is. With our self proclaimed god in nets, the habs struggle in every other aspect of hockey. Carey Price is without a doubt a top5 goalie in the league (I think higher but would prefer this thread not to turn into a debate about where goalies rank) but with how the management feels about having quality scoring and PMD... This team will never make it anywhere.

The goalie position is on an island on their own. They need help to dominate yet they can't do anything to help the rest of the team if the forwards aren't scoring. I am frightened at the possibility of Price being signed for an AAV of 9M or more.

 

[unknown33]

Good thing it took hundreth something years to figure out the goalie position and it conveniently aligns with the lockout.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Goaltending is of average importance. You can win a few rounds if you're held together with .915+ and get a hot streak. It's more important that your whole team approaches each game through systems play and keeps high-danger chances to a minimum.

 

[jw2]

Looking at the list... there's not one of those goalies that wasn't one of the best two goalies during the cup run.

 

[Regal]

It's definitely less important than in the past, for both the reasons you bring up: the difference between the best/average/worst goalies and the cap forcing you to choose where to best allocate your funds.

I disagree that consistency is the only difference between goalies, though I do think the gap has closed in terms of ability. I also think to some degree goalies who are less consistent, but have better high end ability may be more impactful in the playoffs than more consistent goalies who are less capable of stealing games, with the reverse true in the regular season. In the playoffs you only need to win 4 of 7 games, which isn't a great winning percentage. But if your goalie can steal two, give you a chance in four more, and blow 1, it might be better than a guy who gives you a chance in all 7.

Also, it seems like some people take this to mean that goaltending itself isn't important, and those seem to be missing the point. Goaltending is still important. You're not going to go far in the playoffs without it for the most part, even today. But having the best goalie is less of a guarantee you're going to get the best goaltending than it has been in the past, and the question is how important it is to have a top goalie, and where to allocate cap

 

[Hackett]

You build cup contending core with a premiere centre and typically a high end dman followed by a COMPETENT goalie.

If you have the best goalie in the world, its not enough to win. Patrick Roy was great but his 93 habs also were stong down the middle with guys like Muller and carbonneau, while having a couple top pairing guys on defense in Desjardins and Schneider.

Brodeur had guys like arnott and Gomez at center while having top end dmen like Stevens and neidermayer.

Hasek had Mike peca in his prime who was not a bad centre but he was missing that high end dman and maybe peca doesn't even qualify as a good enough front line center.

Price had the high end dman in subban, but didn't have enough at center to win ie) plekanec, desharnais.

 

[BayStreetBully]

It's not overrated when the best goalie in the world is Roy or Hasek. It is overrated today because the best goalie in the world isn't that great historically.

 

[Roomtemperature]

Goaltending has become like running backs in the NFL. You can easy find ones that are good enough if the team around it is great

 

[Seanaconda]

Maf is not a below average starter

 

[Seanaconda]

However it's dumb to spend a fortune on a goalie

 

[Seanaconda]

None of the goalies listed have won the cup...

Price would win the cup if he had a decent team in front of him. He carries that team!

Well let's see if he moves in two years or whenever he's a ufa. If he doesn't take a ridiculous price tag he can probably get on a decent team

 

[Maplebeasts]

I'd say so. I'd say there is less of a difference between the best goalie on Earth and a middle of the pack starter than the best skater on Earth and a middle of the pack skater in the same position. You just need a competent goalie to win.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Problem is that the best goalies in the world get 7M in cap hits and it takes a toll on the rest of the team's payroll.