Is Gardiner a forward?

[X66]

This might not be the popular answer, but Gardiner and Rielly need to play shackle free hockey. They just need to skate up, join the rush, try to do end to end rushes etc. It doesn't matter if mistakes are made, that is how these players are at their best, and controlling the game with the puck on their stick.

I remember when Liles got traded during the HBO winter classic series, and he hugged Rielly and kept telling him to stay cocky or play cocky.

They need to be playing to their strengths.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This might not be the popular answer, but Gardiner and Rielly need to play shackle free hockey. They just need to skate up, join the rush, try to do end to end rushes etc. It doesn't matter if mistakes are made, that is how these players are at their best, and controlling the game with the puck on their stick.

I remember when Liles got traded during the HBO winter classic series, and he hugged Rielly and kept telling him to stay cocky or play cocky.

They need to be playing to their strengths.

Yeah I agree. You need to look at the end result, not the amount of mistakes like so many do. Rielly and Gardiner both have that ability to dictate the game, they may screw up more while doing so but the positive things that bring outweigh the negatives.

I have to wonder sometime how much of our defensive woes could be avoided if we didn't put our D-men out there for long shifts in their own zone all the time, they are given plenty more opportunities to screw up compared to D-men from most other teams. Not to mention that they constantly have a fatigue factor working against them.

 

[RLF]

Franson's +/- was not made worse by Gardiner. It was made better. That was my point. Franson was horrible last year, especially when he didn't have Jake sheltering him.

You're pointing to Franson's stats and blaming Jake for how bad they were, but you're ignoring that Franson got torched when they were split up.

Because of that, the crux of your argument falls apart.

Jake has been awful this year. No question. But he's not playing anything close to what he's shown every other season.

He's having a bad year. It will turn.

Jake sheltering Franson.lol
You talk about Jakes career stats and this is one bad season. Have you ever looked at Franson's stats besides last season? If you have, then give him the same credit as Jake, but you won't. It will still be that Franson is sheltered and Jake is great. Franson's career stats, including advanced are better than Jakes.

Franson is playing top pair this season, his toughest minutes ever and is doing well. If that was Jake, you would be claiming he has hit his potential, but since it's Franson, Phaneuf is making him look good.

The thing is, I won't ignore Cody's downfalls and don't claim he is a real top pairing D. He is ideally a second pairing with slow footspeed, but good size and reach which helps minimize it a bit. You ignore Jakes downside, you ignore that his partners struggle with him. You ignore the fact that all Jakes partners, not just Franson, have had horrible +/- when paired with Jake and somehow flip it to "Franson's +/- would have been worse without Jake". You ignore all Franson's stats except last season, but want everyone to ignore this season for Jake.

You blame all of Jakes partners for his problems and give all Cody's partners praise for his success. Jake has been soft and inconsistent his whole career so far, just like Franson has been slow his whole career.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Jake sheltering Franson.lol
You talk about Jakes career stats and this is one bad season. Have you ever looked at Franson's stats besides last season? If you have, then give him the same credit as Jake, but you won't. It will still be that Franson is sheltered and Jake is great. Franson's career stats, including advanced are better than Jakes.

Franson is playing top pair this season, his toughest minutes ever and is doing well. If that was Jake, you would be claiming he has hit his potential, but since it's Franson, Phaneuf is making him look good.

The thing is, I won't ignore Cody's downfalls and don't claim he is a real top pairing D. He is ideally a second pairing with slow footspeed, but good size and reach which helps minimize it a bit. You ignore Jakes downside, you ignore that his partners struggle with him. You ignore the fact that all Jakes partners, not just Franson, have had horrible +/- when paired with Jake and somehow flip it to "Franson's +/- would have been worse without Jake". You ignore all Franson's stats except last season, but want everyone to ignore this season for Jake.

You blame all of Jakes partners for his problems and give all Cody's partners praise for his success. Jake has been soft and inconsistent his whole career so far, just like Franson has been slow his whole career.

After watching Franson play for several seasons, I just don't believe that he's actually this good. To me, he's clearly playing over his head.

Regarding their career stats:

In 2011-12, Gardiner slightly outproduced Franson. They were basically even, but Jake was in his rookie year, and ended up playing more games and getting more points.

In 2013, Gardiner was out for most of the season with a concussion. Franson had his previous best season. In the Playoffs, they were probably our top 2 defensemen production-wise.

In 2013-14, Gardiner was clearly better. Similar point production, but way better in the defensive zone.

This is the first year that both of them have played, and Franson has clearly outplayed Gardiner. The 1st of 3 seasons. It's also not even half over. A lot can change in 45 games.

So, now that I've analyzed their career numbers, I still feel strongly that Gardiner is the better of the two. What I don't see is any indication that Franson is better, outside of what he's done this season.

Hopefully Franson keeps up his play, and Gardiner raises his game. That would make for a better defense corps.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Gardiner is missing 3 key components to play hockey at a high level.

1. A brain
2. Courage
3. Drive

This is all one needs to know about this player.

 

[happyaccident]

Gardiner is missing 3 key components to play hockey at a high level.

1. A brain
2. Courage
3. Drive

This is all one needs to know about this player.

Sounds oddly like the Wizard of Oz.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Sounds oddly like the Wizard of Oz.

I see your point, if Jake was on the road to Oz, would he ask the Wizard for a brain or some courage?

 

[Erdinger]

.

I have to wonder sometime how much of our defensive woes could be avoided if we didn't put our D-men out there for long shifts in their own zone all the time, they are given plenty more opportunities to screw up compared to D-men from most other teams. Not to mention that they constantly have a fatigue factor working against them.

Is the length of their shifts on the coaches or the result of lazy ass forwards inability/unwillingness to fight for possession in their own end? A lot of those crazy 30-40 second scrambles in the Leafs end result in exhausted D-men having to ice the puck which just keeps them on the ice even longer. No fan of Gardiner but the Leafs forwards are the downfall of this team.

 

[Durkin67]

Is the length of their shifts on the coaches or the result of lazy ass forwards inability/unwillingness to fight for possession in their own end? A lot of those crazy 30-40 second scrambles in the Leafs end result in exhausted D-men having to ice the puck which just keeps them on the ice even longer. No fan of Gardiner but the Leafs forwards are the downfall of this team.

Bingo... that's exactly the problem. Nobody plays a supporting role or falls back to where a short support pass is an option. The D are out manned in their own end, and when (if) the puck is retrieved, the options are limited as is time to execute a zone exit. They either throw an errant pizza up the middle due to the opposition's forecheck, or bobble it trying to pivot and skate it out without getting bowled over. All the while, the forwards hang up around the blueline and in the neutral zone waiting for a stretch pass so they can be the hero, instead of playing like part of a team.

Wanna see Dion cut down on mistakes? Lets see some help from the forwards. Who knows, it might even make Jake less of a liability...

 

[mulefarm]

Gardiner is missing 3 key components to play hockey at a high level.

1. A brain
2. Courage
3. Drive

This is all one needs to know about this player.

Usually the people that say(post) the most, know the least!
And people that say (post) the least, know the most.

 

[King85Kong]

Gardiner is a defenseman that is here to stay. Guy has shown he can impact a game, and clearly he has the skills to do so. Just has to work on his consistence. It will come. Not the first player to have those issues at 24.

 

[Rufio65*]

Gardiner is a defenseman that is here to stay. Guy has shown he can impact a game, and clearly he has the skills to do so. Just has to work on his consistence. It will come. Not the first player to have those issues at 24.

He will get 1 more opportunity with another team. After that he will be in the AHL or KHL by age 27-28. It's obvious that he's not an NHL dman, and it was obvious before Nonis gave him that rediculous contract.

This might go down as the worst contract in the entire NHL.

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

No d-man should be a "rover", it causes chaos to your system and defensive zone coverage. You don't see LA use Doughty this way or Chi use Keith this way. How can we expect our other 4 skaters to anticipate what Jake will do in order to cover properly for him? Sorry, this is just a bad idea.imo

Um chicago won a cup with byfuglien aka Rover. Just becasue it isnt the norm doesnt mean it cant work.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He will get 1 more opportunity with another team. After that he will be in the AHL or KHL by age 27-28. It's obvious that he's not an NHL dman, and it was obvious before Nonis gave him that rediculous contract.

This might go down as the worst contract in the entire NHL.

There's a reason why Anaheim let him go, when the Lupul - Gardiner deal was consummated. I wondered how we got these 2 players so cheaply for a player(Beauchemin) that was playing mediocrely for us.

We know Burke asked for Schultz but Murray insisted on Gardiner. Clue one.

I recall his draft year he was labelled as a talent with questionable hockey IQ. One would have hoped he could develop the instincts for this game in time.

But 6 years after being drafted, nothing has changed. The likelihood of him ever playing smart hockey is very slim.

 

[Gallagbi]

Um chicago won a cup with byfuglien aka Rover. Just becasue it isnt the norm doesnt mean it cant work.

Buff was a forward for them

 

[RLF]

Um chicago won a cup with byfuglien aka Rover. Just becasue it isnt the norm doesnt mean it cant work.

And Byfgulein is crucified for it and was traded. Was he also not mostly playing as a forward during the cup run IIRC?(didn't see above post)

There is also a reason it is not the "norm". It doesn't work. Out of 30 teams, 180 d-men, there are two so-called "rover" examples. Byfuglein, which I agree is a rover...and considered a defensive liability, lazy etc. He has been put as a forward more than once because he "roams" too much and it costs the team.

Keith the other, which I would disagree that Keith is a rover, he is a very smart hockey player that pushes the pace and is seldom caught in a position that he cannot recover from.
Name a rover that doesn't hurt his team defensively? Do people really think the Leafs have a strong enough defensive team to allow a poor decision d-man to "roam" where he wants? The offer of proof it works is a team like Chicago? When the Leafs get Toews, Sharp, Seabrook, Hjarmalsson, Hossa, Saad etc or Jake becomes as good as Kieth...then maybe, just maybe, it could be brought up for discussion.

So, what we should do is let Gardiner roam because Byfuglein does, even though Byfuglein is a disaster at it? The only thing letting Jake roam will do is allow the fanbase to awe at how well he can skate.

 

[King85Kong]

He will get 1 more opportunity with another team. After that he will be in the AHL or KHL by age 27-28. It's obvious that he's not an NHL dman, and it was obvious before Nonis gave him that rediculous contract.

This might go down as the worst contract in the entire NHL.

You're free to think that. I would put money down on that not happening though. To the second part, Clarkson has that honour by a landslide.

 

[Nithoniniel]

He will get 1 more opportunity with another team. After that he will be in the AHL or KHL by age 27-28. It's obvious that he's not an NHL dman, and it was obvious before Nonis gave him that rediculous contract.

This might go down as the worst contract in the entire NHL.

This post is an example of what I meant above.

It was obvious that Gardiner was not an NHL D-man before this off-season? Kind of weird that he actually had an impact that was above average for an NHL D-man up to that point. Great possession numbers, decent production, our overall best goal differential in comparison to ice time, good defensive numbers.

This half-season has been troubling, but there's pretty much nothing that supports an opinion that Gardiner was not at least an average NHL D-man up to that point.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

There's a reason why Anaheim let him go, when the Lupul - Gardiner deal was consummated. I wondered how we got these 2 players so cheaply for a player(Beauchemin) that was playing mediocrely for us.

We know Burke asked for Schultz but Murray insisted on Gardiner. Clue one.

I recall his draft year he was labelled as a talent with questionable hockey IQ. One would have hoped he could develop the instincts for this game in time.

But 6 years after being drafted, nothing has changed. The likelihood of him ever playing smart hockey is very slim.

Lupul had only played 49 of about 130 games for Anaheim in the most recent two seasons. He was also signed to a substantial salary.

He was a salary dump in exchange for Beauchemin. Gardiner was the centerpiece for the Leafs, and Anaheim would not give him up unless we took one of their biggest problems in Lupul.

Anaheim viewed Gardiner as greater value than just Beauchemin.

The fact that we stole Lupul speaks to Burke being either a genius, lucky, or a combo of both.

 

[mulefarm]

There's a reason why Anaheim let him go, when the Lupul - Gardiner deal was consummated. I wondered how we got these 2 players so cheaply for a player(Beauchemin) that was playing mediocrely for us.

We know Burke asked for Schultz but Murray insisted on Gardiner. Clue one.

I recall his draft year he was labelled as a talent with questionable hockey IQ. One would have hoped he could develop the instincts for this game in time.

But 6 years after being drafted, nothing has changed. The likelihood of him ever playing smart hockey is very slim.

Looked up some scouting reports on Gardiner and couldn't find anything that labeled him with a questionable hockey IQ. Seems you like to make your opinions about Jake into fact. Nothing wrong with having your opinion, but don't pretend things were stated to validate your opinion.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Looked up some scouting reports on Gardiner and couldn't find anything that labeled him with a questionable hockey IQ. Seems you like to make your opinions about Jake into fact. Nothing wrong with having your opinion, but don't pretend things were stated to validate your opinion.

Bob Mckenzie! He talks to scouts doesnt he? There's your clue. Do the research.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Looked up some scouting reports on Gardiner and couldn't find anything that labeled him with a questionable hockey IQ. Seems you like to make your opinions about Jake into fact. Nothing wrong with having your opinion, but don't pretend things were stated to validate your opinion.

I'll do the work for you since you questioned my integrity.

Here it is. He also said this a couple of times on TSN DRIVE with Naylor this year. You will have to do your work on that one.

If you talk to amateur scouts, they rave about Gardiner's speed but raise questions about his hockey sense or ability to read plays.

http://www2.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie/?id=353114

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

I'll do the work for you since you questioned my integrity.

Here it is. He also said this a couple of times on TSN DRIVE with Naylor this year. You will have to do your work on that one.


http://www2.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie/?id=353114

That article was from 4 years ago and some of those criticism of Jake still holds true today;


"Jake does a tremendous job of breaking the puck out of his own end and seeing open ice and open men and getting himself or the puck to the right spot," Eaves said. "He reads that extremely well. When he gets to the offensive blueline with the puck, that's maybe where the scouts are talking about reading the play and he's not as strong at that as he is coming out of his own end."

How true!...Once he enters the offensive zone he doesn't know what to do with the puck!..He's almost never a threat to score or set somebody up...He basically circles the net and hopes for a wrap-around most of the time.

For a so-called offensive D-man he isn't very offensive (in a good way!) He's got 9 points in 34 games this season and only 2 lousy goals.

 

[bunjay]

Near the end of the game against Tampa he made such a great rush through the neutral zone trap to set up an almost-tap-in to tie it. Just skated through four guys and the perfect defensive formation started collapsing toward him.

He skates better than most of our forwards, but the thing that makes rushes like that possible for him is being on defense. That rush doesn't happen if you're a winger and you get picked up immediately. Coming up from behind with your forwards already backing up the defense is one of best ways a great defensemen with great skating can drive offense directly.

Gardiner can do that. Reilly can probably do that but hasn't shown it yet. No other defenseman we have can do it.

 

[leafsrock67]

This happens all the time. Leafs fans tend to make big deals out of small deals. I agree he is playing awful, but he has shown flashes of greatness (March and April 2014, playoffs against boston). For a while last year, Franson was also playing similar to hoe Gardiner is playing now, and no one wanted him on the team. We have to give Gardiner some time to develop. He is still very young and has only played 34 games this season. Carlyle also isn't a good coach for him.