News Article: Inside Ken Holland's challenge of rebuilding the Red Wings on the fly

[Mount Suribachi]

Really good article on The Athletic from Craig Custance who spent some time with Holland. Custance seems really in tune with the fans way of thinking and challenges Holland on it

https://theathletic.com/68049/2017/...lenge-of-rebuilding-the-red-wings-on-the-fly/

Holland and I have debated the issue. A couple times. Not because I necessarily believe a complete tank job is the best path for the Detroit Red Wings, but at least it’s a strategy with concrete examples of successful implementation. Teams need elite centers and defensemen to win championships and that’s the only real path I know to get them. It’s hard to find a successful example in today’s NHL of what Holland is instead trying to undertake: Remain competitive while also trying to bring in elite, young talent.

“I want the fans to see a playoff game in Little Caesars Arena this year,” Holland said. “We're trying to have meaningful games.”

All while rebuilding. It's a tall task.

“If I’m wrong,” Holland said, “your plan is going to work.”

What he’s suggesting is if he can’t build a winner his way, the team ends up in the lottery anyways. But it may be worse. The Red Wings could end up in hockey purgatory where they'd have a lot of company.

On the same website there's another great article from a former NHL exec on how he would go about it

https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

Use free agency to eventually land a franchise player: In my opinion, this is a sucker’s bet that many rebuilding teams fall into, particularly teams with a history of being the alpha males of the NHL, like the Red Wings have been. Virtually every team in the NHL thinks they are special in some way, shape or form (ok, maybe not Winnipeg). This is even more pronounced when you have actually been special. Organizational hubris gets woven into your DNA, and only gets worse when you start filling the front office and coaching ranks with former players from your golden era.

Everyone drinks the Kool-Aid, and there is often no voice in the room to offer a counter-balancing opinion. The real danger here is that you lose perspective of where you actually are in your competitive cycle and then compound this by making poor free agent and/or contract decisions to reinforce your perception of being a destination franchise.

Click to read more...

 

[Reddwit]

So many good points in the article/on the website.

That last point about everyone in the organization "drinking the kool-aid" mirrors what I said yesterday about us hearing more and more about how so many of these young guys have some sort of character or attitude flaw (Jarnkrok, Mantha, AA, and Mrazek by my count). I don't think its any coincidence that the guys allegedly causing problems are also guys who aren't old enough to think of the Wings as a powerhouse nor have they been insulated by the organization at a time when the Wings were a powerhouse. I mean, its been Chicago and Pittsburgh's world for 7 or 8 years now. Unless you grew up in Metro Detroit or grew up as a Wings fan, there's really no reason to think any of the youngsters coming up think of Detroit as a team that always makes the right moves. That ship sailed half a decade ago.

 

[Bench]

The Athletic, not the Atlantic. Very different publications, ha. Although on first glance I read it the same way and went, wait, what?

On topic, it's nice to see these articles gaining traction in the media at large. Of course our Detroit beat writers will continue their tepid critiques, but these will eventually given enough attention put pressure on our organization.

 

[Z40]

I'm glad somebody in the media has the fortitude to call out Ken Holland. These quotes demonstrate how he has absolutely lost touch. He had a good 20-year run. It's time to step aside and let someone who better understands the current landscape take over.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

So many good points in the article/on the website.

That last point about everyone in the organization "drinking the kool-aid" mirrors what I said yesterday about us hearing more and more about how so many of these young guys have some sort of character or attitude flaw (Jarnkrok, Mantha, AA, and Mrazek by my count). I don't think its any coincidence that the guys allegedly causing problems are also guys who aren't old enough to think of the Wings as a powerhouse nor have they been insulated by the organization at a time when the Wings were a powerhouse. I mean, its been Chicago and Pittsburgh's world for 7 or 8 years now. Unless you grew up in Metro Detroit or grew up as a Wings fan, there's really no reason to think any of the youngsters coming up think of Detroit as a team that always makes the right moves. That ship sailed half a decade ago.

Someone (may have been you) pointed this out in another thread - the Cleary's and Abdelkader's of this world are the "great locker room guys" that Wings management love, the younger, more talented, more productive guys are the ones catching all the flak in the media from Wings brass.

It does worry me though how many former players are in the organisation now. Maltby (scout), Chelios (coach), Cleary (coach to be), Draper (asst GM), Fischer (player development), Howe (scout) - I'm sure there's more. I always worry this is a case of "jobs for the boys" rather than hiring the best people available. Not to mention I can't help but look at Edmonton and shudder. Or Bobby Clarke as GM in Philly ("what's up with you Lindros you wus? Concussion? Doncha know I played with diabetes! Now get back out there!")

The Athletic, not the Atlantic. Very different publications, ha. Although on first glance I read it the same way and went, wait, what?

Thanks, great spot.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I'm totally blown away to see what I perceive to be well-reasoned, eloquent criticisms, and by respected names, too. I had just accepted that the media wouldn't do that for Detroit. I wonder how this sort of divergent take resonates with Khan, HSJ, and friends. At the very least, they wouldn't have dared to write this kind of a piece.

 

[Reddwit]

Someone (may have been you) pointed this out in another thread - the Cleary's and Abdelkader's of this world are the "great locker room guys" that Wings management love, the younger, more talented, more productive guys are the ones catching all the flak in the media from Wings brass.

It does worry me though how many former players are in the organisation now. Maltby (scout), Chelios (coach), Cleary (coach to be), Draper (asst GM), Fischer (player development), Howe (scout) - I'm sure there's more. I always worry this is a case of "jobs for the boys" rather than hiring the best people available. Not to mention I can't help but look at Edmonton and shudder. Or Bobby Clarke as GM in Philly ("what's up with you Lindros you wus? Concussion? Doncha know I played with diabetes! Now get back out there!")

Yeah, its worrisome, as the article pointed out. Didn't Toronto do the same thing a while back? And Colorado isn't exactly experiencing great results themselves.

Its no wonder Holland loves his Michigan boys. If you grew up in Michigan, you basically grew up viewing the Red Wings as a model franchise. To a certain extent, even as critical as I am of the organization now, I still have something of a superiority complex when it comes to the Wings, so I can understand the logic.

 

[Frk It]

So many good points in the article/on the website.

That last point about everyone in the organization "drinking the kool-aid" mirrors what I said yesterday about us hearing more and more about how so many of these young guys have some sort of character or attitude flaw (Jarnkrok, Mantha, AA, and Mrazek by my count). I don't think its any coincidence that the guys allegedly causing problems are also guys who aren't old enough to think of the Wings as a powerhouse nor have they been insulated by the organization at a time when the Wings were a powerhouse. I mean, its been Chicago and Pittsburgh's world for 7 or 8 years now. Unless you grew up in Metro Detroit or grew up as a Wings fan, there's really no reason to think any of the youngsters coming up think of Detroit as a team that always makes the right moves. That ship sailed half a decade ago.

I've also speculated for awhile that there is not enough accountability in the front office, and we could benefit from an outside voice. Really why I also hope Holland's successor is an external candidate, although that's seeming unlikely.

I'd like to go for a younger progressive guy, like Kyle Dubas. I think he would come in with his own ideas and methods.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

I'm totally blown away to see what I perceive to be well-reasoned, eloquent criticisms, and by respected names, too. I had just accepted that the media wouldn't do that for Detroit. I wonder how this sort of divergent take resonates with Khan, HSJ, and friends. At the very least, they wouldn't have dared to write this kind of a piece.

Khan and HSJ are little more than unofficial mouthpieces for the Org, HSJ especially. Khan is really good for line-up news and stuff like that, and he does drop little tidbits in here and there of how the org is thinking behind the scenes, but they are tame media.

Custance is doing something completely different - offering intelligent criticism. Not the toxic, moronic, hatchet job BS that the media in Toronto and NY offer. I doubt he'll ever be offering day to updates on line-ups in practise, that's what Khan's twitter account is for.

 

[golffuul]

Just as a heads up. This guy is covering Detroit sports for the Athletic, from now on. He used to work at ESPN, but was let go in the wake of their financial debacle that saw all of their hockey folks, aside from basically Buccigross and Melrose, let go.

Will be nice to have a different, more national, voice covering the Red Wings. I agree that HSJ and Khan are pretty much just going to regurgitate whatever folks in the organization want their fans to hear.

Love what Custance has said, so far. Hopefully future stuff won't be behind a pay wall or anything, like it was at ESPN.com.

 

[RedWingzz]

Let's just say Holland's plan doesn't work (which I truly believe there is no way whatsoever we are a playoff team next year). Let's say Holland goes for a playoff spot, but we end up in the bottom 5 in the standings again, any chance he is gone next offseason? I am really ready to have a bit of an overhaul here. We've been mediocre since 2009. We're almost going on 10 years of being an average at best team.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Just as a heads up. This guy is covering Detroit sports for the Athletic, from now on. He used to work at ESPN, but was let go in the wake of their financial debacle that saw all of their hockey folks, aside from basically Buccigross and Melrose, let go.

Will be nice to have a different, more national, voice covering the Red Wings. I agree that HSJ and Khan are pretty much just going to regurgitate whatever folks in the organization want their fans to hear.

Love what Custance has said, so far. Hopefully future stuff won't be behind a pay wall or anything, like it was at ESPN.com.

Didn't he leave of his on accord? I don't think he was let go.

And it looks like the Athletic is a subscription service so paywall it is.

 

[golffuul]

Didn't he leave of his on accord? I don't think he was let go.

And it looks like the Athletic is a subscription service so paywall it is.

Yeah...Custance left after his good friends, Pierre LeBrun and Scott Burnside were let go.


So far, it doesn't seem to be subscription. They are asking for money to offset potential ads, but haven't seen a paywall yet.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Yeah...Custance left after his good friends, Pierre LeBrun and Scott Burnside were let go.


So far, it doesn't seem to be subscription. They are asking for money to offset potential ads, but haven't seen a paywall yet.

https://theathletic.com/40690/2017/02/27/letter-from-the-editor-why-the-athletic-has-a-paywall/

 

[chances14]

yea the atlethic does have a paywall. it seems some articles can viewed for free and others you have to pay

 

[Flowah]

What is this "on the fly" nonsense?

What meaning does "on the fly" even have if we missed the playoffs? There's no more on the fly. There's just us being bad.

Much to the frustration of a passionate and vocal section of Red Wings fans, he’s very consciously decided not to tear the whole thing down and undertake the kind of total rebuild that ultimately led to Stanley Cup success in Pittsburgh, Los Angeles and Chicago, the kind of tear down that has set up Connor McDavid’s Edmonton Oilers and Auston Matthews’ Toronto Maple Leafs for a similar run in the coming years. That undertaking isn’t happening, in part, because there's been a culture passed down from Steve Yzerman to Nicklas Lidstrom to Henrik Zetterberg that Holland has no desire to end. It's a winning culture that can't be drafted in the lottery but that can be lost while stripping a program down to get there.

lol. This "winning culture" nonsense has to stop. Winning culture follows winning. What kind of idiotic winning culture can we claim to maintain when we don't even make the playoffs because the team isn't good enough? Is Pittsburgh or Chicago's winning culture any less formidable because they tanked for their current core? Do they not have that culture? People sure seem to think they do and I wholeheartedly agree.

These reasons are all awful.

If the Red Wings are going to overspend and give term, the better move is to do it with its younger players. Holland wants his players to earn their contracts, which is completely reasonable. It keeps the carrot in front of them. It also makes them more expensive when their second or third deals expire close to UFA.

The only way to have a competitive team in this league is to get great contracts to make room for stars/UFA pickups where you need to pony up. The best way to do that is to take a chance. Give term to a kid who you think will outgrow it. If you don't you're gonna end up giving every player what they deserve or more. Which means you won't have any money to be competitive. Period.

And Holland apparently is totally against that.

 

[izlez]

Man, I just agree with Holland so much.

Holland and I have debated the issue. A couple times. Not because I necessarily believe a complete tank job is the best path for the Detroit Red Wings, but at least it’s a strategy with concrete examples of successful implementation. Teams need elite centers and defensemen to win championships and that’s the only real path I know to get them. It’s hard to find a successful example in today’s NHL of what Holland is instead trying to undertake: Remain competitive while also trying to bring in elite, young talent.

See: San Jose Sharks and Nashville Predators.
Both teams were bubblish teams for years and years and then made it to the stanley cup. Sure, they had some slightly better assets here and there. But it's not like Ryan Johansen MADE their team or a Ryan Johansen level player is impossible to find.
And then of course look at all the teams that have tanked for years and years and still are at the bottom of the standings.

“If I’m wrong,” Holland said, “your plan is going to work.”

Exactly.

All fans and sports media try to be the smartest guy in the room. Complain about losing young and inexpensive guys while not worrying about actual talent.

Holland's problem isn't that he is favoring Ericsson or Howard over Sproul or Mrazek so that he can save cap space. It's that he hasn't found any players better than Ericsson or Howard in 10 years

 

[BinCookin]

https://theathletic.com/40690/2017/02/27/letter-from-the-editor-why-the-athletic-has-a-paywall/

its hard to disagree with their business model.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Really good article on The Athletic from Craig Custance who spent some time with Holland. Custance seems really in tune with the fans way of thinking and challenges Holland on it

https://theathletic.com/68049/2017/...lenge-of-rebuilding-the-red-wings-on-the-fly/




On the same website there's another great article from a former NHL exec on how he would go about it

https://theathletic.com/67998/2017/...l-executive-would-approach-red-wings-rebuild/

These articles were so god damn satisfying to read and echo everything I've been saying for like five seasons.

 

[Reddwit]

I've also speculated for awhile that there is not enough accountability in the front office, and we could benefit from an outside voice. Really why I also hope Holland's successor is an external candidate, although that's seeming unlikely.

I'd like to go for a younger progressive guy, like Kyle Dubas. I think he would come in with his own ideas and methods.

I'm as wary of guys like Dubas as I am guys like Kenny. The former may be progressive, and the latter conservative, but they both seem married to a certain way of thinking. My ideal guy is someone who has been around the block, but would appreciate having a guy like Dubas in his ear.

 

[MVPete96]

Man, I just agree with Holland so much.

See: San Jose Sharks and Nashville Predators.
Both teams were bubblish teams for years and years and then made it to the stanley cup. Sure, they had some slightly better assets here and there. But it's not like Ryan Johansen MADE their team or a Ryan Johansen level player is impossible to find.
And then of course look at all the teams that have tanked for years and years and still are at the bottom of the standings.

Exactly.

All fans and sports media try to be the smartest guy in the room. Complain about losing young and inexpensive guys while not worrying about actual talent.

Holland's problem isn't that he is favoring Ericsson or Howard over Sproul or Mrazek so that he can save cap space. It's that he hasn't found any players better than Ericsson or Howard in 10 years

Did either the Sharks or Preds win the cup? The Wings need elite talent and the only way to get that is by bottoming out, plain and simple.

 

[Frk It]

I'm as wary of guys like Dubas as I am guys like Kenny. The former may be progressive, and the latter conservative, but they both seem married to a certain way of thinking. My ideal guy is someone who has been around the block, but would appreciate having a guy like Dubas in his ear.

What certain way of thinking is that?

 

[golffuul]

https://theathletic.com/40690/2017/02/27/letter-from-the-editor-why-the-athletic-has-a-paywall/

Yeah...sorry...missed that it said, "Free Preview". SMH

 

[Reddwit]

What certain way of thinking is that?

Stats, stats, stats. Dubas' business is stats. Its the reason he's relevant. I don't want to be the first team to give this guy the reigns to an NHL roster. We have yet to see stats carry the day in the NHL like we do in the MLB. I'd much rather go with a guy who appreciates stats than a guy who owes his paycheck to them. Its as dangerous as Holland's commitment to veteran talent or Burke's commitment to "truculence." I think anyone who owes their livelihood or success to one preferred outlook for the entirety of their career is a scary choice.

 

[Beltv]

Stats, stats, stats. Dubas' business is stats. Its the reason he's relevant. I don't want to be the first team to give this guy the reigns to an NHL roster. We have yet to see stats carry the day in the NHL like we do in the MLB. I'd much rather go with a guy who appreciates stats than a guy who owes his paycheck to them. Its as dangerous as Holland's commitment to veteran talent or Burke's commitment to "truculence." I think anyone who owes their livelihood or success to one preferred outlook for the entirety of their career is a scary choice.

Arizona gave the reigns to a stat guy didn't they? Might be too early to tell but...so far not much improvement.