Imposed parity?

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Jaded-Fan

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hockeytown9321 said:
Like I said, if you what you want is for every team to maybe have a 2-3 year window to win and then they're done for another 10 years, fine. Thats your opinion, and if you think thats best, then great. I look at all the great teams that took a long time to build and think that if they had to deal with a cap, they never would've had the chance to be great.

Sorry my man, but that time is long gone no matter what. With money being what it is in hockey today it is not so much patience and slow building as throwing money at stars. Detroit was built and maintained primarily through patience and great drafting? :lol . . . Give me a break.
 

hockeytown9321

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Jaded-Fan said:
Sorry my man, but that time is long gone no matter what. With money being what it is in hockey today it is not so much patience and slow building as throwing money at stars. Detroit was built and maintained primarily through patience and great drafting? :lol . . . Give me a break.

Well, look at thier Cup winning rosters. Who were those teams built around. The fact is, of Detroit's 3 cups, the only big name free agents they had were Hull and Robitaille, both of whom took less money to come here.
 

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hockeytown9321 said:
Well, look at thier Cup winning rosters. Who were those teams built around. The fact is, of Detroit's 3 cups, the only big name free agents they had were Hull and Robitaille, both of whom took less money to come here.

Detroit's winning cup rosters have very little in common with great teams of the past.

Take a look at the rosters for Montreal of the 70's, the Islanders, the Oilers and even the Penguins and then compare them with the Detroit rosters and check out the differences. You can do the same with Jersey and Colorado while your at it.

Jaded is right, anyway you look at it those days are long gone....
 

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hockeytown9321 said:
Well, look at thier Cup winning rosters. Who were those teams built around. The fact is, of Detroit's 3 cups, the only big name free agents they had were Hull and Robitaille, both of whom took less money to come here.

No kidding. The Red Wings had what was perhaps the single best draft in history in 1989, scooping Sillinger, Boughner, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Dallas Drake and Konstantinov in one year. In the next three years, they got LaPointe, Primeau, Kozlov, Osgood, and McCarty.

Anybody who manages to get a dozen players like that in four years is going to turn out great. in fact that is the common denominator - not money - in every great team. They have a three or four year period where they draft enough talent to create a quality core.

You can't buy enough assets to win as long as players are restricted until age 31.

Tom
 

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hockeytown9321 said:
Well, look at thier Cup winning rosters. Who were those teams built around. The fact is, of Detroit's 3 cups, the only big name free agents they had were Hull and Robitaille, both of whom took less money to come here.

Spoken like a true member of the Anti-Cap Crusade.

Stop focusing on free agents so much. The reasons why the Wings have been able to stay so successful over the last decade is a combination of those free agents and the fact that they can give the players they trade for and/or developed MUCH more money than most of the teams in the league.
 

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Stich said:
Spoken like a true member of the Anti-Cap Crusade.

Stop focusing on free agents so much. The reasons why the Wings have been able to stay so successful over the last decade is a combination of those free agents and the fact that they can give the players they trade for and/or developed MUCH more money than most of the teams in the league.


exactly......I dont see him mentioning Shanahan...Hasek...Murphy.....etc

Thats not to say they didnt do a great job drafting/developing.....you must do well there.....but in these cases they did indeed buy assests to help push them over the top
 

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Jaded-Fan said:
Sorry my man, but that time is long gone no matter what. With money being what it is in hockey today it is not so much patience and slow building as throwing money at stars. Detroit was built and maintained primarily through patience and great drafting? :lol . . . Give me a break.

Has a team ever had a draft as good as Detroit's in 1989? Sillinger, Boughner, Lidstrom, Federov, Drake, and Konstantinov.... three outstanding players and three decent ones.

Detroit was a dominant team because they drafted Yzerman, Primeau, the guys in 89, McCarty, Lapointe and Kozlov.

How do you think that Detroit went from a weak team to a championship one?
 

John Flyers Fan

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quat said:
How exactly does competition equal mediocrity? It's lost on people here because it's a) incorrect b) unproven by your choice of examples and c) stupid.

This is so dumb it's remarkable. By this definition any series of games played by two teams that ends up being close in score would be mediocre... like say the 72 series between Canada and Russia. Healthy competition seems to be something to be avioded ? Yeah, right.

Take a look at the current NFL. Instead of having say 2-3 great teams, 4-5 real good teams, 4-5 good teams, 10 average teams, 4-5 bad teams and 2-3 horrible teams, the NFL currently has

2 real good teams
1 good team
9-10 average teams
17 bad teams
 

hockeytown9321

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Stich said:
Spoken like a true member of the Anti-Cap Crusade.

Stop focusing on free agents so much. The reasons why the Wings have been able to stay so successful over the last decade is a combination of those free agents and the fact that they can give the players they trade for and/or developed MUCH more money than most of the teams in the league.

Right, their high payroll stems from the act they they resigned the goodplayers they either drafted or traded for. A cap would have prevented them from doing that. I don't happen to think that'd be fair.
 

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BlackRedGold said:
Has a team ever had a draft as good as Detroit's in 1989? Sillinger, Boughner, Lidstrom, Federov, Drake, and Konstantinov.... three outstanding players and three decent ones.

Really? 3 servicable ones - at best - but not one of the three contributed the Wings and not one brought anything useful back.

BlackRedGold said:
How do you think that Detroit went from a weak team to a championship one?

Detroit's back to back championship teams were absolutely a product of good management, drafting and what not but the 4 years after that were spent at the top of the standings without the cup, the 3rd cup win and the time since is a by product of deep pockets. As pointed out, not every money move is through free agency but it should still be seen for what it is.

Detroit does deserve credit for some of what they did in terms of team building but that credit can only go so far.
 

hockeytown9321

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Mothra said:
exactly......I dont see him mentioning Shanahan...Hasek...Murphy.....etc

Thats not to say they didnt do a great job drafting/developing.....you must do well there.....but in these cases they did indeed buy assests to help push them over the top


OK, lets look at Shanahan, Hasek and Murphy.

Detroit gave up Primeau for Shanahan. Primeau is now arguably the best power forward in the league.

They gave up a 1st round pick and their 6th all time leaidng playoff scorer for Hasek, and if Hasek wouldn't have been traded by Buffalo, he would have retired with Buffalo getting nothing.

Toronto was desperate to get rid of Murphy. The Red Wings didn't even have to pay him the year they got him. Anybody could have come along and made a better offer for him than Detroit did. They chose not to, and Detroit benefitted.
 

Guest

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The key to the Detroit example isn't so much who they acquired as high priced acquisitions, it's that they have been able to hold together their team core, for the most part, with an increasing payroll. If you look at the Detroit teams that won the first two Cups, they weren't nearly as bloated in salary as their teams that followed. That goes along with winning a Cup, yet alone two, the players are proven winners and demand to be paid like so. This is all coming from a fan who despises the Red Wings.

The Red Wings would have been in a rebuild mode a couple of years ago had their been a cap or something else to regulate salaries in the league. That's the difference, they wouldn't still be a contender nor would they have been adding players to contend. The team would have been dismanted like many say will occur with the Ottawa Senators in a few years time. The difference is that Detroit had the money to keep the team together, not all franchises do.
 

hockeytown9321

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GoCoyotes said:
The key to the Detroit example isn't so much who they acquired as high priced acquisitions, it's that they have been able to hold together their team core, for the most part, with an increasing payroll. If you look at the Detroit teams that won the first two Cups, they weren't nearly as bloated in salary as their teams that followed. That goes along with winning a Cup, yet alone two, the players are proven winners and demand to be paid like so. This is all coming from a fan who despises the Red Wings.

The Red Wings would have been in a rebuild mode a couple of years ago had their been a cap or something else to regulate salaries in the league. That's the difference, they wouldn't still be a contender nor would they have been adding players to contend. The team would have been dismanted like many say will occur with the Ottawa Senators in a few years time. The difference is that Detroit had the money to keep the team together, not all franchises do.


And I acknowledge that not all franchises have the money to do that. But I also don't feel like the Red Wings or anybody else who can keep their team together should be brought down to the level of the worst. Its like I said earlier, instead of bringing all of the poorer teams up to the highest level, they want ot bring the best down to the lowest.

I think the biggest problem the NHL has is lack of revenue. And I don't think that problem is solved by a cap.
 

Mothra

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hockeytown9321 said:
OK, lets look at Shanahan, Hasek and Murphy.

Detroit gave up Primeau for Shanahan. Primeau is now arguably the best power forward in the league.

They gave up a 1st round pick and their 6th all time leaidng playoff scorer for Hasek, and if Hasek wouldn't have been traded by Buffalo, he would have retired with Buffalo getting nothing.

again you are focusing on how they picked up those guys......not the fact that they had the dough to actually pay them

and if someone is going to argue tha Primeau is the best power forward in the game today.....they will lose
 

Jag68Sid87

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You keep talking about how no NFL team can sustain success, yet the New England Patriots are as successful as any Detroit Red Wings team has been in the recent past. Different systems, same level of success (if you want to argue about semantics, then the Pats have won 2 out of 3 Super Bowls, while the Red Wings are the last repeat Stanley Cup champions).

You also talk about how the Patriots or any other successful NFL team could not hold a candle to the great NFL teams of the 60s, 70s and 80s. Well, guess what? Neither could the Red Wings if pit against the Canadiens of the 60s or 70s, or the Islanders or Oilers of the 80s.

What you're talking about isn't a salary cap/free market system issue. Rather, it's a sign o' the times issue. None of the great teams of previous eras had as many teams to compete against. Today, NFL teams compete against 31 other clubs, the NHLers 29. So, what you're basically saying is that your Red Wings deserve to maintain a loaded roster, and you'd rather see teams fall by the wayside--instead of sharing the financial committments evenly, so as to allow the very best management teams to build strong teams.

Today, if Holland screws up with a signing, he just picks somebody else up to right his wrong. Not all teams can afford to do that, and when a Kevin Lowe makes a mistake (er, Jiri Dopita comes to mind), he can't correct himself. How is that fare, from a competition perspective? It isn't.

It seems to me the only people that don't want to see a salary cap are Red Wings, Maple Leafs, Flyers and Rangers fans. Coincidence?

That isn't thinking outside the box, that's for sure.
 

triggrman

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hockeytown9321 said:
I think the biggest problem the NHL has is lack of revenue. And I don't think that problem is solved by a cap.

No the biggest problem in hockey is owners that are not fiscally responsible. If all owners ran their teams like a business and not a PS2 game, the NHL wouldn't need a cap.
 

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Jag68Vlady27 said:
You keep talking about how no NFL team can sustain success, yet the New England Patriots are as successful as any Detroit Red Wings team has been in the recent past. Different systems, same level of success (if you want to argue about semantics, then the Pats have won 2 out of 3 Super Bowls, while the Red Wings are the last repeat Stanley Cup champions).

You also talk about how the Patriots or any other successful NFL team could not hold a candle to the great NFL teams of the 60s, 70s and 80s. Well, guess what? Neither could the Red Wings if pit against the Canadiens of the 60s or 70s, or the Islanders or Oilers of the 80s.

I'll disagree with you there, the Red Wings back-to-back Cup winning teams could certainly compete with the great NHL teams of the 70's, 80's and 90's.
 

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triggrman said:
No the biggest problem in hockey is owners that are not fiscally responsible. If all owners ran their teams like a business and not a PS2 game, the NHL wouldn't need a cap.

I disagree there, because there are huge differences in the amout of revenues that each team brings in.

The Flyers could very easily have a $55 million payroll and be quite profitable, where a team like the Preds or Canes have trouble making a profit with a $30 million payroll.
 

Jag68Sid87

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triggrman said:
No the biggest problem in hockey is owners that are not fiscally responsible. If all owners ran their teams like a business and not a PS2 game, the NHL wouldn't need a cap.

But that is a highly utopic thought that has as much chance of happening as George W. Bush winning a local spelling bee.

Look, there are a LOT of stupid owners in the NHL, just like there are morons in MLB, the NBA and other sports. But not all idiotic owners, not all "bad" owners and not all slime-bucket owners make all the bad financial committments in hockey.

Example: George Gillet is NOT a bad owner. One could argue he's already one of the best in his very short stint as Canadiens owner. However, it's under his ownership that the Jose Theodore contract was signed. Now, was Theodore's contract a "bad" contract for the NHL? I don't think there's any question about that. Now, was it a "bad" contract for the Montreal Canadiens? That's where it gets trickier. Would the team have been better off letting their marquee player rot as an un-signed player? Perhaps. However, Theodore has achieved God-like status in Montreal, so he basically had the organization over a barrel.

This is but one example of how an organization can get cornered into giving in to players when the timing is perfect for the player. THIS is what needs to change.

When there's perssure to win, owners/GMs make hasty decisions at times, which have major implications around the league. I'm not saying they are wrong for making the hasty/bad business decision, but I do emphatize. Most teams are in a no-win position as it stands with the current CBA: If you're fiscally responsible, your fans will b*tch and you may see a dropoff in attendance (your MAIN source of revenue). If you're not fiscally responsible, the media (and some fans) call you out as ignorant baffoons, and it will also cause a chain reaction of events that will harm other teams (and may come back to bite you back in the a*s down the road with other players).

This is why the system must change, and a new system must be implemented that ties revenues to salaries...or Bettman's infamous "cost certainty".
 

Jag68Sid87

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John Flyers Fan said:
I'll disagree with you there, the Red Wings back-to-back Cup winning teams could certainly compete with the great NHL teams of the 70's, 80's and 90's.

You have the right to disagree. But, you'd be wrong. :D
Come on, the Red Wings of the late 90s can't hold a candle to the great Habs teams, the great Oilers teams or the great Islanders teams.

I find it really difficult to believe that one of the main points of argument for a modest luxury tax, but no cost certainty system, is because of the fact we'll never see another dynasty in the NHL.

If the BEST the NHL could do going forward was the same team winning the Cup 2 out of 3 years, but that all other clubs would be profitable and reasonably competitive, wouldn't THAT supersede the need for team greatness???

As far as the Detroit Lions are concerned, they've stunk for years but that is mainly due to the fact they've had horrendous management and player evaluation. Compare that to the Montreal Expos (may they RIP), who were the consummate small-market operation but became extinct because fans got fed up with the looting of talent. The NHL may not be at that level yet, but we're not THAT far off, either.

Any system where the rich can simply get richer if they so choose is not a good system--not when you have 30 franchises operating and revenue-generating problems.
 

Guest

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I don't think you can say that the owners are not fiscally responsible, because all the have to look out for is their own bottom line, while it might be smart to make moves with the health of the league in consideration, if one owner is a saint and the others are all sinners then you lose out with your good deeds.

This is where the league has failed the owners by not providing a standard for which teams compete. There are so many rules for the draft, roster size/limits, and what you can do on the ice, but up until now there haven't been many guidelines as to how much a team could spend or had to spend. I think it's just as fair to question why so many teams can get by fielding such poor hockey teams and not making the financial effort to improve themselves. If a team can't spend a certain amount of money on it's team, it's probably not in a viable enough market to sustain the team for what is required.

Now the league is paying catch up to make up for the damage that has been continually done by ownership in the league. The players and PA have only taken advantage of the system in place, which has been somewhat chaotic in structure.

Funny thing is that 10 years ago the league and owners were claiming the same thing as now, but the league is worse to show for it not being corrected then. That is why the league and owners have such a hard line stance, they can't afford to lose this battle again for another 10 years unless they want to lose their businesses.

Much like the players association, the league has more teams that can lose from the way things have been than teams who benefit to keep the status quo. That is the very same reason that you'll see the average NHL's salaried players make sure that something get's done from their side when it goes too far. The majority cannot be held down for long, but they can be subdued until they realize what is going on.
 

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Back on topic...

It's very easy to assume that the league let the rules slip on obstruction because the owners as a whole put up a fight because the majority of the teams don't have the skill to play against the more skilled teams. Whenever they would tighten up the rules, this would be exposed, and the owners would stop it before it continued.

Now if you were to balance the talent around the league with the NHL's current brand of Cost Certainty, it may create a new competitive balance by taking away from the most skilled teams and giving that surplus to the least skilled teams. In the process, the league can also crackdown on obstruction once again without interference from the owners, because all the teams would essentially be equal once the rosters balance out due to the CBA changes. Letting the players play to the best of their capabilities in turn will help improve the overall product of the league, and you will see more teams competitive based on rosters, but there would be variables in coaching and drafting that could give some teams an advantage rather than the payroll considerations that are factored in now.

It's growing pains. The NHL wants to reset the clock, and they have to do so carefully as to not drive the fans away. The best way to do it is to make sure it improves the game, and that means they have to get all the rules set and tested in the AHL so they have something to progress on.

It might mean that the Detroit's, Colorado's, Toronto's, and New York's of the league have to take major hits to get the league in balance, but they were a big part of what through the league off balance as well.
 

Winger98

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GoCoyotes said:
they have been able to hold together their team core

Sorry for the heavy editing, but that right there is the only thing I want to see come from this CBA: as many teams as possible having the ability to hold together their core. I don't personally think that can be done with a strict cap system, but I wouldn't complain if I'm wrong. I do know that I tend to follow one team in each of the four major sports (Wings, tigers, Bears, Celtics) and I tend to feel closer to the teams who have been the most stable (Tigers, Wings) while more distanced from teams with seemingly constant turnover (Bears, Celtics). While I tend to still follow those teams with higher turnover of players, I also find that I don't follow them as closely as when I knew most of the names on the back of the jersey.

To get back on topic a bit, I don't think the league purposefully set out to use obstruction as a means to reduce the league to parity. Regardless of a cap or not, wins will continue to be increasingly difficult to come by and defense will continue to be the best way to win a game against any opponent. If you can get away with an extra grab or tug and make it all the easier for yourself, then you're going to do it. It's not going to matter how much talant your team has, or how much money your organization has spent. You do what wins you games and incorporating obstruction into your gameplan does that.

And if the talant is spread more evenly, then what will set teams apart is their system and that system will most likely be defensive in nature. And with everyone mentioning the big market successful teams, look at their style of play. Detroit has largely been a defensively dominant team. So has Dallas. So has NJ. Without looking it up, I'm willing to bet even that offensive juggernaut Colorado more than held their own defensively in their cup years. These were all teams with quite a bit of talant, but none of them played like the '84 Oilers.

If we want a cleaner league, it's not going to start with anyone's wallets. It's going to start at the NHL's head offices and go through the refs.
 

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hockeytown9321 said:
Right, their high payroll stems from the act they they resigned the goodplayers they either drafted or traded for. A cap would have prevented them from doing that. I don't happen to think that'd be fair.

What you don't get is that payroll limitations already prevent ~75% from doing exactly that. How is it fair that the Wings and a few other teams are capable of retaining all their players while the rest of the league cannot? It is MUCH more fair for all teams to have the same payroll limitations.
 

Tom_Benjamin

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GoCoyotes said:
The Red Wings would have been in a rebuild mode a couple of years ago had their been a cap or something else to regulate salaries in the league. That's the difference, they wouldn't still be a contender nor would they have been adding players to contend. The team would have been dismanted like many say will occur with the Ottawa Senators in a few years time. The difference is that Detroit had the money to keep the team together, not all franchises do.

I agree with this, but I don't think this is a bad thing. Detroit has been in a tough spot the past few years. They are still good, particularly in the regular season when most of the games are against inferior teams and they have such a geographical advantage.

They still generate the big regular season revenues. It has been easy for them to think they still have a chance - and the fans certainly believe - but I think their chances of winning four series in a row have now dropped to near zero. Nashville gave them all they could handle and Calgary beat them like a drum. The Flames are faster and Detroit can't handle them physically. Their puck possession game fell apart.

Absent change in the CBA, they have to fall on hard times. They don't have enough good young players. They aren't good enough to make money in the playoffs. They have two problems:

1) Every year they have to add talent to stay in the same place because every year their best players are one more year past their prime. If they do nothing the group gets worse.

2) They stopped producing players when they go into the free agent business big time. Teams only have so many jobs. The typical team has forty or fifty players under contract. Two teams plus a few still in Junior and an extra goalie in the ECHL. Nobody has many job vacancies. Turnover in the entire NHL is only about 8%. There is no job growth. Hire five players and you have to cut five players.

Since Detroit has hired a lot of veteran players from outside the organization, the guys they have dropped are young players from within the organization. Some of these guys might have turned out better had their opportunities not been blocked. A Detroit doesn't find many late round gems because late rounders don't get much of a chance in an organization that solves problems by throwing money at it.

Detroit and Dallas both made the mistake the Rangers made after winning the 1994 Stanley Cup. The Rangers did not take apart their core for several years after it was obvious that they should. They kept replacing one expensive veteran with another. You can't get better that way. You are on a treadmill that eventually carries the team to oblivion.

The Devils and the Avalanche have not gone into the free agent market big time. They only extend a few of their own players beyond free agency age. They do not hire veterans that take away jobs and opportunity for young players. They have dumped more talent than anybody in the league because they don't dump young players. That's the model every team should follow. Ottawa certainly will. They've already started, losing Bonk and Lalime.

The best hockey decision for Detroit would have been to stop spending three or four years ago. I think they have been driven by the best business decision. Dallas and St. Louis are at the same crossroads. They can spend money to stay in the same place or they can look at their roster and say "Our best players are past their prime. Unless we give much bigger roles to our young players we are going to get worse and we are already in a dogfight for a playoff spot."

Under the old CBA, the smaller market teams were forced to make the hard decisions but those decisions almost always turn out to be right. The larger markets (or the ones with owners willing to lose money) have the option to go the wrong way. They may stay up there as a quasi-contender for a time, but they pay in the longer term.

The Ranger wallet has been their Achilles Heel. If they - or any other team - wants to spend when they should be cutting payroll, let them fill their boots. It doesn't hurt anyone except themselves.

I think a smart fan can understands why a team decides to cut. You spend two or three years in the wilderness and then you come back. There are 30 teams. You might have to do that many times if you don't produce enough players.

The alternative is worse. If you have money, you get on the treadmill for a few years and then you are the Rangers. They've spent like drunken sailors for ten years, they've missed the playoffs for seven straight years and they still have to spend two or three years in the wilderness before they can come back.

Unless they change the CBA.

Tom
 
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