Importance of having a team in proper division.

[namttebih]

So my daughter made the BB rep team this year. This is her first year on this team, who is made up of about 60% returning players. 5/6 players joining the team are coming up from DS/select level hockey. Last year they had a 2-18-3 record.

In 5 preseason games so far, they have been outscored 42-1. There have been very few scoring chances for and litteraly 0 sustained pressure.

The only game that has been close so far has been against a team which was still in the tryout stage, sitting their best 5 skaters and #1 goalie - which ended in a 3-1 loss. This team has decided to drop down to the B division.

There is the option for our team to also drop down to B, but it has been received negatively by the coach and association.

There are a number of parents on the team who are pushing for it - with me at the forefront of it. I really didn't want to cause any conflict for my daughter, but she has been supportive and encouraging in my pursuit of it. She also played on a similarly outskilled high-school team last year who were picked apart every game, so she would at the very least like to be on a team who can be competitive on a nightly basis.

Is this worth the fight? How much skill development can be achieved when getting thoroughly outplayed on a nightly basis? I realize that this is rep hockey, but they still have to be having some fun throughout the season. I really don't want to be "that guy" and risk alienating her, but I feel that this would be the best move for her and her team.

Thoughts?

Click to read more...

 

[Yukon Joe]

So at the outset you need to defer to your daughter. Sounds like you are.

But absolutely it's worth the fight. You will not develop skills if you never touch the puck. You will not develop skills if you're constantly hemmed in your own zone. And of course it's just no fun to get shelled 42-1 - that'll destroy and joy for playing hockey and cause kids to quit.

 

[Squiffy]

How are they trying to field a BB team with a third of the players coming from DS coming off 2-18-2? (or 2-18-3? judging by location we're talking OWHA Southern league, 22 game schedule, my daughter plays it too). Like that's not feasible. U11? They might close the gap some and see a bit of success in the back half, I've seen that happen, but if we are talking like U15 there's no hope IMO, other teams are too far out in front.

That's not fun there though, absolutely I would be behind you pushing to drop a level. My son went through a 1 win season, it is not fun for them, and regardless of being "rep hockey", it's gotta be fun. If 2/3’s is from a not great BB team last year, B sounds like the right level. Minor or major team?

 

[namttebih]

So at the outset you need to defer to your daughter. Sounds like you are.

But absolutely it's worth the fight. You will not develop skills if you never touch the puck. You will not develop skills if you're constantly hemmed in your own zone. And of course it's just no fun to get shelled 42-1 - that'll destroy and joy for playing hockey and cause kids to quit.

Yes, she's totally on board with the drop down. The regular season hasn't even started yet and she's already not excited to go to the games. This coming from a girl who played LL, DS and high school last year as well as coaching a ball hockey team in the spring. She obviously loves the game.

Last night they lost 2-1 against another winless team, with our goalie standing on her head. She scored her first goal at this level and was in tears on the way home because most of the girls were celebrating how well they played.

 

[namttebih]

How are they trying to field a BB team with a third of the players coming from DS coming off 2-18-2? (or 2-18-3? judging by location we're talking OWHA Southern league, 22 game schedule, my daughter plays it too). Like that's not feasible. U11? They might close the gap some and see a bit of success in the back half, I've seen that happen, but if we are talking like U15 there's no hope IMO, other teams are too far out in front.

That's not fun there though, absolutely I would be behind you pushing to drop a level. My son went through a 1 win season, it is not fun for them, and regardless of being "rep hockey", it's gotta be fun. If 2/3’s is from a not great BB team last year, B sounds like the right level. Minor or major team?

Probably 2-18-2. I was just going off of another parent's comments.

It's worse than it sounds. It's U18. The girls that are coming up from DS were all U15 last year. So they're playing against girls 2 years older, 2 tiers higher than they played last year.

They have officially made their decision to stay in BB. I had asked for a parent vote but they decided to go by a team vote in the change room while the coach spouted propaganda. "Do you want to play 3 15 minute periods or go back to 10-10-12?"
"Who wants to show them that we belong and prove them wrong?"
That is literally how they phrased it.
All of the parents I've spoken to agree with me. Unfortunately all but 1 have backed it up with a conversation with the league or team manager.

It's going to be a long season.

 

[Squiffy]

It's worse than it sounds. It's U18. The girls that are coming up from DS were all U15 last year. So they're playing against girls 2 years older, 2 tiers higher than they played last year.

Ya, boy that is a big gap. DS to B moving from U15 to U18 is a huge enough leap. Some 17 year old in rep hockey for the last 7 years that has settled in at BB on a good team is a darned good hockey player.

Is most of the team 2008 then? Like, at least a long term commitment to grow the team over three seasons kinda thing? As long as this year may be, that’s a “plausible” path forward if they plan to stick together.



Edit: Congrats to your daughter popping a goal. If the season is going to be a gong show maybe she can at least stand out and maybe see some offers from a better team next year.

 

[Yukon Joe]

They have officially made their decision to stay in BB. I had asked for a parent vote but they decided to go by a team vote in the change room while the coach spouted propaganda. "Do you want to play 3 15 minute periods or go back to 10-10-12?"
"Who wants to show them that we belong and prove them wrong?"
That is literally how they phrased it.

That's just shitty. Of course kids can be swayed by an emotional appeal from a coach.

I'm surprised that's the coach's position - when it's come up in the past my kids coaches have always been in favour of moving down. Maybe just the coach's ego that they want to be a BB coach, rather than a B?

 

[namttebih]

That's just shitty. Of course kids can be swayed by an emotional appeal from a coach.

I'm surprised that's the coach's position - when it's come up in the past my kids coaches have always been in favour of moving down. Maybe just the coach's ego that they want to be a BB coach, rather than a B?

The thought has crossed my mind. She has a daughter on the team though. I would hope that ego would not get in the way of what's right for her own kid.

I've requested the board's reasoning for supporting this decision. I know that they have been bound and determined to have 3 teams in the top 3 tiers at every level. Something that has started in the last couple of years. This is something that has to be started at a young age and gradually implemented though. We're a mid range center population wise and currently don't have the talent pool for it at every age group.

 

[namttebih]

Ya, boy that is a big gap. DS to B moving from U15 to U18 is a huge enough leap. Some 17 year old in rep hockey for the last 7 years that has settled in at BB on a good team is a darned good hockey player.

Is most of the team 2008 then? Like, at least a long term commitment to grow the team over three seasons kinda thing? As long as this year may be, that’s a “plausible” path forward if they plan to stick together.



Edit: Congrats to your daughter popping a goal. If the season is going to be a gong show maybe she can at least stand out and maybe see some offers from a better team next year.

Thanks man! It was a beauty too. Proud papa.

Definitely a valid point for them hoping to develop the girls with 3 years as a team. I really hope that this is why they are so adamant about it. The major issue with that is, if they have a disaster of a season and don't have any fun because of it. I could see some of them not wanting to repeat it. At this age it's already hard to keep kids playing with part time jobs, senior grades of high school and boy/girlfriends.

 

[Squiffy]

Thanks man! It was a beauty too. Proud papa.

Definitely a valid point for them hoping to develop the girls with 3 years as a team. I really hope that this is why they are so adamant about it. The major issue with that is, if they have a disaster of a season and don't have any fun because of it. I could see some of them not wanting to repeat it. At this age it's already hard to keep kids playing with part time jobs, senior grades of high school and boy/girlfriends.

Ya, my sons team didn’t survive the 1 win season. Most of them went down a level, rest found new teams, old team folded. But maybe different circumstances, that team expected to be ok, not to be a feeder team to better teams. If your daughters team is eyes wide open let’s stick together three years and see how far we can take ourselves, maybe a bit different dynamic there.

Still, to me I’d rather see how they did at B for a year and if they’re bent on BB make the jump back next year if it went well. Hope it goes better then expected for you, let us know..

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Wow. If you can drop down, it sounds like you should. I skimmed but didn't catch the ages involved? I think I had a kid that went like 2-28 in PeeWee one season, and all they ever did was joke amongst themselves about their team that year forever after. I can't see how it builds any really positive outcome. You don't have to win championships or whatever. But at least have somewhat competitive games if at all possible?

This can definitely be a major parent issue, however. Especially if there are a few parents involved who are kind of looped in to the association and don't want their kids to be tiered lower. At the same time, associations are on the hook to register teams in levels so schedules can be made and icetimes booked and all that fun stuff. It should USUALLY be known by the people involved how things are shaping up... but at a certain point it kind of becomes "too late" to do anything about it? Now... almost October... is getting kind of late... ?

 

[Squiffy]

Late, yes. OWHA hasn’t quite finalized yet, schedule isn’t out, the final jockeying is afoot. I think it’s final in the next week or so.

Is there already a U18 B team below them? And if so, how are they?

You can make a bit of an argument about how do you establish a BB team if you don’t have one, and gotta start somewhere, from an association perspective, maybe that’s the case? I’m kinda guessing there isn’t from kids jumping DS to BB while going U15 to U18 at the same time. And I’ll still finish with it sucks to know you’re going to lose, I hope there’s a plan.

On a side note real happy to stumble on a girls hockey thread, despite the unfortunate concerns of OP’s kid being the nature of it. Has come a long way in the last decade or two, really happy my daughter has the chance to play these days in a real, competitive hockey loop that has financial backing and grassroots support. You couldn’t have imagined it for say my sister when we were kids, you played ringette or nothing.

 

[namttebih]

Wow. If you can drop down, it sounds like you should. I skimmed but didn't catch the ages involved? I think I had a kid that went like 2-28 in PeeWee one season, and all they ever did was joke amongst themselves about their team that year forever after. I can't see how it builds any really positive outcome. You don't have to win championships or whatever. But at least have somewhat competitive games if at all possible?

This can definitely be a major parent issue, however. Especially if there are a few parents involved who are kind of looped in to the association and don't want their kids to be tiered lower. At the same time, associations are on the hook to register teams in levels so schedules can be made and icetimes booked and all that fun stuff. It should USUALLY be known by the people involved how things are shaping up... but at a certain point it kind of becomes "too late" to do anything about it? Now... almost October... is getting kind of late... ?

They're U18 girls. Our team manager is also the President of the org and has a kid on the team - so very involved. I've coached my daughter from U9 right up until this year and have had some disputes with her in a convener role. Maybe the request would have been more successful if someone else would have taken the reigns on this one, but parents are more inclined to silently support unless asked to do so.

 

[namttebih]

Late, yes. OWHA hasn’t quite finalized yet, schedule isn’t out, the final jockeying is afoot. I think it’s final in the next week or so.

Is there already a U18 B team below them? And if so, how are they?

You can make a bit of an argument about how do you establish a BB team if you don’t have one, and gotta start somewhere, from an association perspective, maybe that’s the case? I’m kinda guessing there isn’t from kids jumping DS to BB while going U15 to U18 at the same time. And I’ll still finish with it sucks to know you’re going to lose, I hope there’s a plan.

On a side note real happy to stumble on a girls hockey thread, despite the unfortunate concerns of OP’s kid being the nature of it. Has come a long way in the last decade or two, really happy my daughter has the chance to play these days in a real, competitive hockey loop that has financial backing and grassroots support. You couldn’t have imagined it for say my sister when we were kids, you played ringette or nothing.

No, there isn't a B team below. They are determined to have 3 teams at the highest level at every age group - despite the resulting consequences.

The girls already have that mindset. The group that is coming up from DS is a very competitive one. This is the reason that they were hand picked to try out for this team. They are shocked by the mentality of the returning players. They were celebrating the 2-1 loss in the change room against the team which will surely finish second last to them this year.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Late, yes. OWHA hasn’t quite finalized yet, schedule isn’t out, the final jockeying is afoot. I think it’s final in the next week or so.

Is there already a U18 B team below them? And if so, how are they?

So obviously each area does things a little bit differently. I know in Edmonton that once the AA / AAA teams are set there's no movement. But back at "house" hockey, Hockey Edmonton deliberately sets a bunch of games right to start the season, even before teams have even really gelled - specifically with the idea of trying to evaluate the teams, and whether they should move up or down a division. And the OP here explicitly said that moving down was a possibility.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So my daughter made the BB rep team this year. This is her first year on this team, who is made up of about 60% returning players. 5/6 players joining the team are coming up from DS/select level hockey. Last year they had a 2-18-3 record.

In 5 preseason games so far, they have been outscored 42-1. There have been very few scoring chances for and litteraly 0 sustained pressure.

The only game that has been close so far has been against a team which was still in the tryout stage, sitting their best 5 skaters and #1 goalie - which ended in a 3-1 loss. This team has decided to drop down to the B division.

There is the option for our team to also drop down to B, but it has been received negatively by the coach and association.

There are a number of parents on the team who are pushing for it - with me at the forefront of it. I really didn't want to cause any conflict for my daughter, but she has been supportive and encouraging in my pursuit of it. She also played on a similarly outskilled high-school team last year who were picked apart every game, so she would at the very least like to be on a team who can be competitive on a nightly basis.

Is this worth the fight? How much skill development can be achieved when getting thoroughly outplayed on a nightly basis? I realize that this is rep hockey, but they still have to be having some fun throughout the season. I really don't want to be "that guy" and risk alienating her, but I feel that this would be the best move for her and her team.

Thoughts?

This happened to my daughter’s team last year.

She had a really good team and was excited… she worked hard to make this team etc

Than after we committed, several players from the associations AA team left, and they were replaced by the best players on my daughter’s team.

The replacements for my daughter’s team came from a division below them.

So basically many of their best kids were replaced by much less talented players.

Some of these kids couldn’t even make proper passes and were just above house league level.

As you can imagine it was a shitshow.

My wife and some of the parents made a big push to get the team moved to a lower division but of course nope…

They basically lost every game but one and kids were crying at tournaments and wanted to quit.

Their coach got so mad he walked out on a few practices and even told one kid’s mom he was “going to end up with a hooker in Ohio”.

It was one long ass drag of a season that I couldn’t wait to end.

Keep pushing to get your team moved down or you will end up having a season like us and hating every second of it.

 

[Squiffy]

This happened to my daughter’s team last year.

She had a really good team and was excited… she worked hard to make this team etc

Than after we committed, several players from the associations AA team left, and they were replaced by the best players on my daughter’s team.

The replacements for my daughter’s team came from a division below them.

So basically many of their best kids were replaced by much less talented players.

Some of these kids couldn’t even make proper passes and were just above house league level.

As you can imagine it was a shitshow.

My wife and some of the parents made a big push to get the team moved to a lower division but of course nope…

They basically lost every game but one and kids were crying at tournaments and wanted to quit.

Their coach got so mad he walked out on a few practices and even told one kid’s mom he was “going to end up with a hooker in Ohio”.

It was one long ass drag of a season that I couldn’t wait to end.

Keep pushing to get your team moved down or you will end up having a season like us and hating every second of it.

How was the association tiered if you don’t mind my asking? Best players left to AA, presumably that means your daughters team was A, but what was below that that they drew from? Some version of house league select? Or just a lower rep level?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How was the association tiered if you don’t mind my asking? Best players left to AA, presumably that means your daughters team was A, but what was below that that they drew from? Some version of house league select? Or just a lower rep level?

It was six tiers for travel:

AA
BY 2011
A Gold
A Black
Mixed 4
Mixed 5
—-
House upper
House lower

She was A Gold. They didn’t want to mess with their 2011 BY team as that Is now their AA this year.

So they pulled from the Gold.

They didn’t want to mess with A Black either, so for my daughter’s team they backfilled with Mixed 4.

Mixed 4 and 5 were basically glorified house travel teams that the association suckered parents into paying for.

It was all a huge mess and the association is run by a bunch of good old boys.

I could write pages of what a disaster they are, but won’t ramble.

My daughter left the association this past spring and made an independent AA team that is not affiliated with PAHL.

She’s enjoying hockey again and that’s all I care about.

 

[Squiffy]

Well that’s just ridiculous right? What is the point of tiering as an association if you aren’t going to let it flow organically? Disservice to everyone involved.

Glad to hear it’s gotten better for her.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Well that’s just ridiculous right? What is the point of tiering as an association if you aren’t going to let it flow organically? Disservice to everyone involved.

Glad to hear it’s gotten better for her.

In their defense they had some players poached in a shady way.

It was really shady stuff as the 2010 BY coach went off to a AAA team with his son and made some back room handshake with that org.

Then 2 weeks after tryouts and commitments were signed with all of the AA kids, the 2010 BY coach swooped in and took a half dozen of his former players over to that AAA org.

So the AA team got hammered and lost a ton of talent just like that.

But my daughter’s former org as you said didn’t organically backfill her team and parents were pissed, us included.

Then they f***ed up again by refusing to drop to a lower league.

Just a god awful shitty season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

They have officially made their decision to stay in BB. I had asked for a parent vote but they decided to go by a team vote in the change room while the coach spouted propaganda. "Do you want to play 3 15 minute periods or go back to 10-10-12?"
"Who wants to show them that we belong and prove them wrong?"
That is literally how they phrased it.
All of the parents I've spoken to agree with me. Unfortunately all but 1 have backed it up with a conversation with the league or team manager.

It's going to be a long season.

Sorry, but that’s inappropriate. As the parent you are paying the freight for this, you are making the official decisions on behalf of your kid… you are the responsible party. The determination of league structure is a decision between the board and the parents, not between the coach and the kids.

Not gonna lie, I’d pull my kid from a program if I saw a coach pull bullshit like this with the backing of the board, in reaction to a valid parental concern. The fact that this happened speaks to what you can expect from the organization going forward (i.e. nothing in your best interest).

I’m continually amazed at the irresponsible, delusional attitudes on display by the adult leadership in youth sports.

 

[patnyrnyg]

My nephew is a year younger than my daughter and also plays. However, he lives on a different side of the city and plays in a different league. My daughter's league has a pre-season and then will re-align so teams play in the appropriate division. My nephew's team is playing 2 leagues and doesn't seem like either of them do the same. Just seems like the organization tells the league which division they want for each team and the schedule is made. My daughter's team went 1-4 in preseason and in the 4 losses it was clear they were overmatched. Lost 1 game by 4 goals and the other 3 by 8 or more. They have been moved down a division and rightfully so. Saturday, my nephew's team lost 9-1 and that was the CLOSEST game the other team had played thus far. In an earlier game, they got blown out so bad they stopped putting the goals up on the board. They stopped putting them up at 8-0 and just played running time. My brother looked around his league websites and seems like most games in his division are blowouts. A realign would likely help,

 

[patnyrnyg]

They're U18 girls. Our team manager is also the President of the org and has a kid on the team - so very involved. I've coached my daughter from U9 right up until this year and have had some disputes with her in a convener role. Maybe the request would have been more successful if someone else would have taken the reigns on this one, but parents are more inclined to silently support unless asked to do so.

I think at that age, it has to be up to the players.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not gonna lie, I’d pull my kid from a program if I saw a coach pull bullshit like this with the backing of the board, in reaction to a valid parental concern. The fact that this happened speaks to what you can expect from the organization going forward (i.e. nothing in your best interest).

But that's it - that's your only recourse - pull the kid.

I was (an am) frustrated with one issue of one kid's program (nothing worth going into in a public forum), but at the end of the day my only option would be to pull my kid. From a program he loves. The only alternative would be a non-sanctioned league where you have even less control and influence as a parent, and costs even more money (whether it's worth the cost or not is a debate for another day).

So in my case we just shut out mouths and go along.

If it was truly such a bad issue I'd be willing to pull my kid - I imagine if it was an issue of player safety or something. But if it's just an issue over whether to be re-tiered or not I'd say my piece then probably shut up.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think at that age, it has to be up to the players.

If the players are paying for it and handling all the logistics, sure. At that point, it’s their own time and their own money at stake.

Otherwise, it’s the parents’ time and money at stake. The parents are literally customers purchasing a service from the coaches. Giving them no voice in the decision is completely inappropriate and arguably disrespectful.

The pressures @Yukon Joe describes one post above are very real and seem to crush parents underfoot in this dynamic. I don’t know when low-level rec hockey coaches got this kind of social power, to tell people that their kids get to call the shots, but when the bills are in the five-figures annually it’s time to put that stuff out to pasture.