WJC: IIHF Releases World Junior Rankings

[Zine]

I understand your example but it doesn't solve the problem. Every NHL team does have it's own minor league team. That doesn't mean yakupov and RNH are going to be sent automatically come world junior time. And that idea would just be pointless. They don't need to be sent down to be allowed to play in the WJC, they just need to be given the ok by nhl owners. Hopefully more owners will start to allow their players to leave like connely and Devante smithpelley last year, but i don't see that being very likely for guys like RNH, or yakupov or really anyone of that caliber and I can't say i blame them. I'm a habs fan, and I don't want to see effective players being taken out of our lineup in the middle of the season if we're trying to catch a playoff position. I also don't want to see them miss the opportunity to play for their team. I want everyone to be able to play their best, cause unless we beat the other country's best it would be a hollow victory. That is why again, the solution is simple. Schedule the tournament somewhere after the NHL playoffs..

Walk into Hockey Canada's office and tell them you want a June WJC. You'd be laughed out of the building.

Hockey Canada, TSN and most of the Canadian population would go ape**** if you remove the WJC from the holiday season. Christmas/New Years/WJC has become a cultural tradition.


There are far too many factors in play for the solution to be as simple as "hey, we can just reschedule the whole tournament!!!".

 

[Yakushev72]

1. OK

2. What the hell am I, a lobster fisherman from Nova Scotia supposed to do about the NHL's schedule. Obviously the NHL has the power to change whatever aspects of it's game that it wants to, but why would it do that? It's priority is to grow the game in the states and create profit. If they started the season on the first of september, they would be overlapping another month and a half with football. Going head to head with america's favourite sport... that's not how you grow the game in the US.

My option is simple and doesn't force massive already established seasons from premier sports leagues to be adjusted. The IIHF simply schedules it's little two week tournament in june. duhhhh.

3. I understand your example but it doesn't solve the problem. Every NHL team does have it's own minor league team. That doesn't mean yakupov and RNH are going to be sent automatically come world junior time. And that idea would just be pointless. They don't need to be sent down to be allowed to play in the WJC, they just need to be given the ok by nhl owners. Hopefully more owners will start to allow their players to leave like connely and Devante smithpelley last year, but i don't see that being very likely for guys like RNH, or yakupov or really anyone of that caliber and I can't say i blame them. I'm a habs fan, and I don't want to see effective players being taken out of our lineup in the middle of the season if we're trying to catch a playoff position. I also don't want to see them miss the opportunity to play for their team. I want everyone to be able to play their best, cause unless we beat the other country's best it would be a hollow victory. That is why again, the solution is simple. Schedule the tournament somewhere after the NHL playoffs.

And 4. The big red machine, the soviets that were sooo great back then are just another example of exactly the kind of ******** i'm talking about. Were the soviets a good team, absolutely, they were great. We were better. But we only got limited chances to prove that because the olympics only allowed amateur players. The first time that great soviet's and canada's best clashed was in 1972. It was called the summit series, and we won. And after that we met them in 5 canada cups for which we won 4 of, as well as 2 world cup of hockey tourney's where we won one, and then 2 of the 4 olympics since 1998. How many of those only best on best tournaments to ever take place in international hockey have the russians won? just 1.


I understand the meaning of the OP and that it is not a rank of the best outputting of players by a country. That's why i'm pissed off at it. Because it should be. I don't want false information put out there. I don't want any other country to even think for a second that they are the best, and yes, i may be a little bit arrogant when it comes to this topic, but I want the world to know, and never forget that we are the best, and we always will be.

You can't count the Canada Cups and World Cups as legitimate tournaments, because they were owned, operated, and administratively controlled by the host country (the US was thrown a bone and allowed to host non-critical games on some occasions). In the middle of the 1984 Canada Cup, Alan Eagleson, sole owner and operator of the Canada/World Cup as President of the NHLPA, decreed that henceforth no European would be allowed to referee a Medal round game. If it had any legitimacy before, all legitimacy ended at that moment.

 

[Yakushev72]

The Rankings are a Joke because Canada's junior team is without a significant amount of players every year because they are talented enough to be playing in the NHL. We are literally too good for this tournament. The only time the world has ever seen a true top junior team was in 2005...and guess who, to no surprise, mopped the floor with everyone.

The mens rankings should be based only on Olympics because that is the only tournament where mens play best on best. The World championship rosters look nothing like the ones from the olympics so why are they used as a measuring stick for hockey supremacy? it's stupid, and solution is simple...you win the olympics and your the best..duuuhhh and canada has won the most, and most recent olympics.

In my opinion, despite the Russians early exit from the olympics, they are the second best hockey nation and only went out that early because they had to face canada.

The IIHF under 18's don't allow our best because our juniors are in the CHL. the ivan hlinka however does not allow us to put our best in and we've dominated it. although not all teams send their best in that either so we really have no measuring stick at that level. but the under 17's are comprised of the rest of the worlds best against individual provinces from canada, and still we are the best in that. could you imagine what would happen if we combined our country into one team like everyone else.

We are the best. End of story.

(1) The paradox of saying that Canada is "literally too good" for the WJC, but lost the last 3 tournaments because 4 or 5 players were missing, makes no sense at all. You are either too good, in which case a win shouldn't be dependent on having 4 or 5 players, or you are back in the pack with your equals, in which case having the 4 or 5 players is essential to having a chance to win a Gold Medal. You can't have it both ways.

(2) Even though I'm a Russian fan, it is often necessary to remind Canadian fans who understandly prefer to focus only on the 2010 Olympic matchup between Canada and Russia, that Russia lost to Slovakia before playing Canada, and nearly lost to the Czechs; while, at the same time, Canada nearly lost to Slovakia, lost to the US, and nearly lost to the US again in OT in the Gold Medal game. Other than the Russia game, Canada's performance was less than stellar in the 2010 Games, and nobody outside of Canada believes the ridiculous notion that Canada is dominating the sport.

 

[Yakushev72]

The "system" is every country plays with their best players and loses maybe one or two to the NHL, while canada has the talent to beat every body hands down year in and year out, but loses a ton each year. 2010. No john tavares, michael delzotto, matt duchene, evander kane, tyler myers, steven stamkos.

Same thing in 2011, same thing last year...same thing every year, and I know we still own the thing, but 3 years in a row our country's been heartbroken, and undeserving of it. We are the best and we are not being allowed to show that we are the best because of scheduling procedures and changing of OUR GAME by an organization that is run by europeans.

All the Canadians mentioned above have played on losing Canadian WC teams within the last 3 or 4 years. 80% of all Canadian NHL players are available to play in the WC each year, but the fact is that in recent years that isn't nearly enough to give Canada a shot at winning Gold. Canada needs 100% of its best to be competitive for a Gold Medal.

 

[24stanleycups*]

All the Canadians mentioned above have played on losing Canadian WC teams within the last 3 or 4 years. 80% of all Canadian NHL players are available to play in the WC each year, but the fact is that in recent years that isn't nearly enough to give Canada a shot at winning Gold. Canada needs 100% of its best to be competitive for a Gold Medal.

And if every country had 100% of it's talent every year at all levels the medal standings would be almost entirely red and white. Having c and d teams that can beat our c and d teams proves nothing. But you know what, i'm done with trying to talk sense into you people. You know we're the best, I know we're the best, and that's all that matters. I talked and talked and talked before the olympics as did the russians and we were the ones who backed it up. Now I get to enjoy that victory for another 2 years, and we will revist this again in sochi, and we will see once again who the true hockey power is.

 

[Sanderson]

And if every country had 100% of it's talent every year at all levels the medal standings would be almost entirely red and white. Having c and d teams that can beat our c and d teams proves nothing. But you know what, i'm done with trying to talk sense into you people. You know we're the best, I know we're the best, and that's all that matters. I talked and talked and talked before the olympics as did the russians and we were the ones who backed it up. Now I get to enjoy that victory for another 2 years, and we will revist this again in sochi, and we will see once again who the true hockey power is.

Seriously, "But you know what, i'm done with trying to talk sense into you people." comes off as being quite arrogant, especially when you don't offer anything of substance at all.

You say that the NHL cares about developing itself as best as possible, yet you don't allow the rest of the hockey world to do the same. Why should dozens of countries sit around doing nothing for one month more, just to cater to the five canadian fans who complain about the same thing every single year?

The IIHF has to look out for each and everyone of its members. If the NHL has other plans, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, just don't blame the IIHF for something that is up to one league alone. The NHL is fine with the situation, the IIHF is mostly fine with it as well. The World Championships have been pushed back again and again. There is only so much time you can push it to before it becomes ridiculous. People already complain about the NHL ending in early June, so how is it a good idea to move the WCH to an even later spot?
The world doesn't revolve around North America. Telling everyone that the IIHF is out to hurt Canada and Canada alone, which is utterly ridiculous, only to demand that you get it the way you want while everyone else gets hurt, makes no sense at all.

The world rankings should not be based on the Olympics. That wouldn't make any sense at all, as the world rankings are done to rank all the members of the IIHF. Seriously, why do people complain about this?
Every member nation participates in tournaments. These tournament lead to a ranking which sets the qualification for the Olympics. That's all. Yet the same five people complain and complain and complain as if the world depended on these rankings.

If you feel better if you just keep to the Olympics then that's fine, do that. No one is forcing you to watch more hockey. Just don't tell everyone that only the Olympics matter before going on endless rants on how this and that about the IIHF sucks, you only contradict yourself. If only the Olympics matter, then why do you continue to argue about something you say you don't care about?

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Putting aside this whole Canada vs. everybody else thing, does anyone know why exactly the IIHF has decided to base thise on results in only 2 seasons? It seems to me that that´s an incredibly short span of time to see any trends as one surprise performance (whether positive or negative) might influence the result greatly. Surely if the point was to measure how all the nations have progressed/regressed a longer period of time would make more sense.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Putting aside this whole Canada vs. everybody else thing, does anyone know why exactly the IIHF has decided to base thise on results in only 2 seasons? It seems to me that that´s an incredibly short span of time to see any trends as one surprise performance (whether positive or negative) might influence the result greatly. Surely if the point was to measure how all the nations have progressed/regressed a longer period of time would make more sense.

Because it's for research to see where teams will be in the future. Junior ranking alongside senior. If you go back more than 2 years most of the best players from those U20 teams will be in the senior roster by now.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Because it's for research to see where teams will be in the future. Junior ranking alongside senior. If you go back more than 2 years most of the best players from those U20 teams will be in the senior roster by now.

The problem with this is that those two years only include players from four birth years (91-94) and only a handful of these players will actually make it to the senior national team. The chances that such a small group of players will be the dominant group in the senior team seems pretty low, when you consider that the age of the players playing for the senior national teams ranges anywhere from 18 year olds (and even younger players for the lower division teams) all the way up to 40. Okay, 18 and 40 might be a bit of extreme cases, but still the age span of the senior NT players is so big that it just makes no sense to me to try to make predictions based on 4 age groups only. (even more so when all your data is only from 4 tournaments).

Over at IHF people have actually been making IIHF World Ranking style rankings for both U20 and U18 WC each year since 2002 for all the teams playing in IIHF competitions and looking over those rankings from 2002-2012 seems much more meaningful than IIHF´s 2 years.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Not many make the national team no but some still do. Using my GB as an example, last year the senior team had one 91 born player and two 90 born players. If you only go back 2 years there won't be many players who played both junior and senior in that span, so it makes the comparison between junior and senior ranking more accurate.

 

[espo*]

1.Canada's performance was less then stellar?...........we won gold!!

I just love this new slant on things some posters around here now have.........The new "overall body of work" thesis to get out of admitting Canada was just plain the best team and have the gold medals to prove it while their teams failed and don't have the golds which proves it.

Where are Russias golds the past 4 best on best olympics?

Oh, that's right, you don't have any.This despite the fact you guys are always going on about how good you are.

2.Even though I'm a Canadian fan, I find it is constantly necessary to remind Russian fans that they overrate their teams and it's abilites due to the FACT that well...................it wins next to zero of the best international competitions when all nations can send their best. Canada was less then stellar in a tournament of all the best players and which they won Gold in?


O.K then...................I guess we can agree then that if that is so then Russia was atrocious, and has been in all four of them.


Just one more reminder from me you guys just ain't that good.

Big red hype..........nothing more.

I wish you guys would just stop tooting your own horn when results prove you're nothing more then an also ran.

Fans have been letting you guys run on your reputation from the 70's and 80's for far too long.

Those halcyon days have been gone for a long time now. You're still living in the past.

Time to step into the year 2012.

(1) The paradox of saying that Canada is "literally too good" for the WJC, but lost the last 3 tournaments because 4 or 5 players were missing, makes no sense at all. You are either too good, in which case a win shouldn't be dependent on having 4 or 5 players, or you are back in the pack with your equals, in which case having the 4 or 5 players is essential to having a chance to win a Gold Medal. You can't have it both ways.

(2) Even though I'm a Russian fan, it is often necessary to remind Canadian fans who understandly prefer to focus only on the 2010 Olympic matchup between Canada and Russia, that Russia lost to Slovakia before playing Canada, and nearly lost to the Czechs; while, at the same time, Canada nearly lost to Slovakia, lost to the US, and nearly lost to the US again in OT in the Gold Medal game. Other than the Russia game, Canada's performance was less than stellar in the 2010 Games, and nobody outside of Canada believes the ridiculous notion that Canada is dominating the sport.

 

[1912]

Ridiculous how much bickering a small ranking can create. Time to grow out of the sandbox? Not all of you but some.

 

[espo*]

As i've said before, the rankings don't bother me, I know Canada is number one.


What Rene Fasell and the boys think just don't matter.

 

[1912]

As i've said before, the rankings don't bother me, I know Canada is number one.


What Rene Fasell and the boys think just don't matter.

They obviously do since you seem so upset.

 

[Yakushev72]

1.Canada's performance was less then stellar?...........we won gold!!

I just love this new slant on things some posters around here now have.........The new "overall body of work" thesis to get out of admitting Canada was just plain the best team and have the gold medals to prove it while their teams failed and don't have the golds which proves it.

Where are Russias golds the past 4 best on best olympics?

Oh, that's right, you don't have any.This despite the fact you guys are always going on about how good you are.

2.Even though I'm a Canadian fan, I find it is constantly necessary to remind Russian fans that they overrate their teams and it's abilites due to the FACT that well...................it wins next to zero of the best international competitions when all nations can send their best. Canada was less then stellar in a tournament of all the best players and which they won Gold in?


O.K then...................I guess we can agree then that if that is so then Russia was atrocious, and has been in all four of them.


Just one more reminder from me you guys just ain't that good.

Big red hype..........nothing more.

I wish you guys would just stop tooting your own horn when results prove you're nothing more then an also ran.

Fans have been letting you guys run on your reputation from the 70's and 80's for far too long.

Those halcyon days have been gone for a long time now. You're still living in the past.

Time to step into the year 2012.

I love how Canadians always try to portray their deluded fantasies of superiority by saying it is in response to other fans "always going on about how good they are." Find one F'ing word that I wrote about how good Russia is. My point was obviously way over your head, so I'll help you work to understand it. My point was that Russia lost to Slovakia before losing to Canada, and Canada came within a hair of losing to Slovakia. Canada lost to the U.S. once, and only sheer luck prevented them from losing a second time (Crosby swatting at a puck while on his back). What I said was that the only good game Canada played was against Russia - Canada struggled to score throughout the rest of the tournament. That's just a fact, whether you like it or not. (Don't bring up the Germany game - it was Germany).

Its like 24StanleyCups said "we talked and talked" before the 2010, "but we backed it up." As if he was an player! As if his chatting on the Internet should be equally credited along with the guys who scored goals on the ice. He made a contribution with his mouth!

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I do not know how any can be surprised in the slightest that Canada is not at the top of the list. Our jr's have not been particularly impressive as of late.

I have a feeling that this year's U20 team from Finland will outplay Canada. I'm very hopeful we do not lose at WJC for the 4th consecutive year.

 

[Zine]

As i've said before, the rankings don't bother me, I know Canada is number one.


What Rene Fasell and the boys think just don't matter.

People ignore things that don't matter.....they don't take the time to post on such subjects.

 

[espo*]

Deluded fantasies?.

Take one look around this board and you won't have to look very hard to see Russian fans overinflated views of their hockey.

I don't know where you've been lately but it couldn't have been around here.

And you say Canada played one good game?

Geez, and I actually thought you had something on the ball at one point.

Let's get this straight so you can maybe understand it..................WE WON GOLD, do you get that?

WE WON GOLD.

You simply cannot play ONE good game of hockey and win Gold in hockey at the olympics anymore, are you daft?

It's like you have zero comprehension of international hockey. You have to play good teams in the olympics and at international tournaments these days. Think it's easy to beat Slovakia? the U.S? ****, of all people you should know it's not easy..............you lost to Slovakia for gods sake!! If they can beat you then we can be sure you have to play a good game to beat them.

And you're telling me we played ONE good game?

are you serious?

I love how Canadians always try to portray their deluded fantasies of superiority by saying it is in response to other fans "always going on about how good they are." Find one word that I wrote about how good Russia is. My point was obviously way over your head, so I'll help you work to understand it. My point was that Russia lost to Slovakia before losing to Canada, and Canada came within a hair of losing to Slovakia. Canada lost to the U.S. once, and only sheer luck prevented them from losing a second time (Crosby swatting at a puck while on his back). What I said was that the only good game Canada played was against Russia - Canada struggled to score throughout the rest of the tournament. That's just a fact, whether you like it or not. (Don't bring up the Germany game - it was Germany).

Its like 24StanleyCups said "we talked and talked" before the 2010, "but we backed it up." As if he was an player! As if his chatting on the Internet should be equally credited along with the guys who scored goals on the ice. He made a contribution with his mouth!

 

[espo*]

Obviously I do take the time to post on subjects that don't really matter.

we're all different, you should be able to see that by how you guys think teams that win golds only play "one good game"

Weird attitude I know, but hey.................. it takes a lot of different people to make up this world.

People ignore things that don't matter.....they don't take the time to post on such subjects.

 

[espo*]

Fans from other countries making sarcastic remarks about Canadian hockey just because they disagree with the rankings bothers me, the rankings itself do not.

I guess you're wrong then eh?

Not surprised.

They obviously do since you seem so upset.

 

[1912]

Fans from other countries making sarcastic remarks about Canadian hockey just because they disagree with the rankings bothers me, the rankings itself do not.

I guess you're wrong then eh?

Not surprised.

I honestly don't care about you or your feelings towards the snide remarks.

I do however, notice when a person is upset, whether it be through a vocal conversation or through text. And you are upset. Maybee not with the rankings. But for someone who claims to allready know his country is the best, your reaction seems pretty strange.

If you don't care, be magnanimous.

Cheers.

 

[espo*]

If you honestly don't care about me or my feelings toward snide remarks why do you keep responding to me?

I can tell through vocal conversation or through text when what I say bothers someone.

If you don't care be magnanimous from here on in.




Cheers.

I honestly don't care about you or your feelings towards the snide remarks.

I do however, notice when a person is upset, whether it be through a vocal conversation or through text. And you are upset. Maybee not with the rankings. But for someone who claims to allready know his country is the best, your reaction seems pretty strange.

If you don't care, be magnanimous.

Cheers.

 

[24stanleycups*]

I love how Canadians always try to portray their deluded fantasies of superiority by saying it is in response to other fans "always going on about how good they are." Find one word that I wrote about how good Russia is. My point was obviously way over your head, so I'll help you work to understand it. My point was that Russia lost to Slovakia before losing to Canada, and Canada came within a hair of losing to Slovakia. Canada lost to the U.S. once, and only sheer luck prevented them from losing a second time (Crosby swatting at a puck while on his back). What I said was that the only good game Canada played was against Russia - Canada struggled to score throughout the rest of the tournament. That's just a fact, whether you like it or not. (Don't bring up the Germany game - it was Germany).

Its like 24StanleyCups said "we talked and talked" before the 2010, "but we backed it up." As if he was an player! As if his chatting on the Internet should be equally credited along with the guys who scored goals on the ice. He made a contribution with his mouth!

I didn't say or imply that my talking should be equally credited along with the guys who scored the goals on the ice. I talked and talked because of my confidence in my country, in my team, and they proved me right.

Your obviously still upset over the fact that we won gold and you were beaten badly by us in the quarter finals and your whining is pathetic. And if we played so badly..and still won gold what does that say about the rest of the world in comparison to us?

See you in sochi.

 

[1912]

If you honestly don't care about me or my feelings toward snide remarks why do you keep responding to me?

I can tell through vocal conversation or through text when what I say bothers someone.

If you don't care be magnanimous from here on in.




Cheers.

Ran out of words? No need to parrot back what i just wrote.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Deluded fantasies?.

Take one look around this board and you won't have to look very hard to see Russian fans overinflated views of their hockey.

I don't know where you've been lately but it couldn't have been around here.

And you say Canada played one good game?

Geez, and I actually thought you had something on the ball at one point.

Let's get this straight so you can maybe understand it..................WE WON GOLD, do you get that?

WE WON GOLD.

You simply cannot play ONE good game of hockey and win Gold in hockey at the olympics anymore, are you daft?

It's like you have zero comprehension of international hockey. You have to play good teams in the olympics and at international tournaments these days. Think it's easy to beat Slovakia? the U.S? ****, of all people you should know it's not easy..............you lost to Slovakia for gods sake!! If they can beat you then we can be sure you have to play a good game to beat them.

And you're telling me we played ONE good game?

are you serious?

You guys come across as ******* crazy sometimes.

Don't sweat it, hardly worth the aggravation, fans tend to over-value their own, that's our right as fans...

But talking about Delusional, you should get a load of the Russian Sports Press...not a hint of professionalism or objective opinion among the lot of them, just a whole lot of beating the war drum and the return of the Big Red Machine. According to a few of their experts I was reading, Canada just has an outsider's chance of getting a medal and Sweden, The Czechs will be their toughest competition, based on what they believe the core of our Olympic team is the recently completed WHC. One moron expert ex player commented that 12 players from the WC team will be in Sochi, some decent young players he said, but not much of a threat for Sochi.. But the Big Red Machine steamrolled traditional hockey powerhouses Norway (twice) Italy, Denmark, Latvia and one or two others and it's all hail the return of the Big Red Machine. It's so beyond delusional it's hysterical. The Russians may be in line for another beat down in Sochi, but it may not even come from us. It may be the Americans this time, who I consider to be a far better team than Russia. Better goaltending, better defense, more depth in the forward group, balanced attack... The Americans I believe are today the true number 1 ranked team in the world, followed by Canada, then Sweden and Russia 4th with the finns close behind them.