You would never have caught me saying that when they both played, or years after for that matter, but Sundin was the better player without much doubt.
He's not miles ahead or anything, it's actually pretty close. I don't think there's any shame is saying Sundin was the better player, though Alfie made up a lot of ground in the back half of his career. It's certainly a fair debate to have, but like having to rank any two stars, there will always be debate, and the things that set one apart are often small bits here and there. Sundin does have all of the NHL stats and international stats, even if he did start in the NHL earlier, it was due to him being 1st over all, not a fluke. Anyways, I don't want to get into a debate because I don't enjoy arguing a position against Alfie.
Here is a good discussion from our board:
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/why-alfredsson-sundin.1791127/
Every time I run long(er) term numbers; clear plateau's become visible making it fairly easy to see the tiers (like in the 10yr chart on page 1). Sundin, Alfredsson, Modano, Iginla, Hossa, St.Louis, Kariya... they're part of the same tier. None of them are up with Sakic, Jagr, Forsberg, Selanne, Thornton, etc. You can run the raw data or the adjusted, it'll come out the same. The only difference is health and opportunity.
At the end of the day, there's no reason to get worked up about rankings within a tier. It just depends on what your focus is: ability, durability, longevity, peak, consistency (1yr/3yr/5yr/7yr/10yr/12yr/15yr), goals, points, defensive play, physical play, playoffs, regular season, international play, etc. There are many different ways to measure who's better depending on your own preferences. As long as people are choosing within tiers and their arguments are supported by the evidence that they provide, they probably have a reasonable argument.
Recently, somebody posted a youtube link for Alfredsson highlights. It was spectacular because it showed why he was great. Picking off passes or stripping pucks in the neutral zone or at the blueline. Leading the rush up ice. Slowing down the play or going in on an odd man rush. His change of pace backing off defenders. Everything looks easy throughout the whole thing. We were lucky to have him.
Iggy:
4 top 10 point finishes (One 1st)
1 top 10 assist finish (10th)
4 top 10 goal finishes (Two 1st)
4 top 10 GWG finishes (One 1st)
Alfie:
3 top 10 point finishes
1 top 10 assist finish (8th)
3 top 10 goal finishes
1 top 10 GWG finishes (7th)
Iggy was a better scorer, Alfie was more complete player.
They're not winners, or at least "First second-placers", as is sometimes heard around here, with Alfie a winner on the international stage on a weaker team than Iggy's piggyback win. (Alfie is much better on the international stage, Iggy largely a passenger.)
Iginla didn't miss any games in those 4 seasons where he had top-10 point finishes. Alfredsson missed 22 games in those 3 seasons in the top-10 in points. Durability and ability aren't the same thing. Alfredsson was a better point producer, Iginla was more durable.
If 2 players play 2 seasons and then retire... which was better? Why? How are you defining better? What is your goal?
Player A
82-40-60-100, 1.22 (Hart, Art Ross, Lindsay)
80-20-30-50, 0.63
162-60-90-150, 0.93
Player B
70-35-50-85, 1.22
75-25-40-65, 0.87
145-60-90-150, 1.03
Below are some of the players mentioned in page 1 whose careers largely overlapped
sorted from best to worst season by PPG (Thornton, Alfredsson, Datsyuk, St. Louis, Kariya, Zetterberg, Iginla, Hossa, H.Sedin, D.Sedin, Elias, B.Richards, Naslund). The minimum GP is mostly 41, but Elias' best season was 38 GP. This gives us a look at ability and consistency over time.
| JT | DA | PD | MSL | PK | HZ | JI | MH | HS | DS | PE | BR | MN |
| 1.54 | 1.34 | 1.20 | 1.25 | 1.43 | 1.23 | 1.34 | 1.22 | 1.37 | 1.35 | 1.18 | 1.14 | 1.27 |
| 1.39 | 1.27 | 1.18 | 1.24 | 1.32 | 1.10 | 1.20 | 1.15 | 1.15 | 1.27 | 1.17 | 1.11 | 1.11 |
| 1.31 | 1.13 | 1.16 | 1.21 | 1.23 | 1.08 | 1.17 | 1.01 | 1.00 | 1.04 | 1.01 | 1.07 | 1.08 |
| 1.17 | 1.04 | 1.10 | 1.15 | 1.16 | 1.07 | 1.09 | 1.00 | 0.99 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 0.96 | 1.04 |
| 1.13 | 1.04 | 1.05 | 1.15 | 1.04 | 1.04 | 1.05 | 0.96 | 0.99 | 0.93 | 0.99 | 0.93 | 0.98 |
| 1.05 | 1.03 | 1.04 | 1.01 | 1.02 | 1.00 | 0.92 | 0.95 | 0.94 | 0.93 | 0.96 | 0.86 | 0.83 |
| 1.03 | 1.01 | 1.03 | 0.98 | 0.99 | 0.95 | 0.90 | 0.93 | 0.93 | 0.90 | 0.92 | 0.85 | 0.79 |
| 1.00 | 1.00 | 0.96 | 0.96 | 0.93 | 0.95 | 0.89 | 0.92 | 0.91 | 0.87 | 0.83 | 0.84 | 0.73 |
| 0.99 | 0.94 | 0.91 | 0.85 | 0.83 | 0.86 | 0.84 | 0.89 | 0.89 | 0.85 | 0.82 | 0.80 | 0.72 |
| 0.95 | 0.93 | 0.88 | 0.85 | 0.79 | 0.84 | 0.82 | 0.88 | 0.74 | 0.74 | 0.81 | 0.76 | 0.67 |
| 0.94 | 0.91 | 0.82 | 0.76 | 0.71 | 0.83 | 0.82 | 0.83 | 0.71 | 0.68 | 0.77 | 0.76 | 0.56 |
| 0.93 | 0.82 | 0.80 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.70 | 0.82 | 0.83 | 0.61 | 0.66 | 0.75 | 0.74 | 0.53 |
| 0.88 | 0.79 | 0.74 | 0.66 | 0.57 | 0.68 | 0.78 | 0.78 | 0.61 | 0.64 | 0.74 | 0.62 | 0.45 |
| 0.83 | 0.74 | 0.50 | 0.51 | X | 0.61 | 0.75 | 0.74 | 0.55 | 0.54 | 0.70 | 0.49 | 0.15 |
| 0.83 | 0.72 | X | 0.32 | X | 0.56 | 0.72 | 0.72 | 0.50 | 0.41 | 0.68 | 0.41 | X |
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If we are to understand what several posters think about value between Zadina and Tkachuk, they value scorers much more than complete players.
I'm not sure how this relates.
