If there were a coaches wing in the HHOF...

[Crosbyfan]

Well there is kind of a coaches wing in the HHOF. It is the builders wing. But obviously it is not exclusive to just coaching so I guess you could say I have a couple coaches who I think should be in there.

Fred Shero - You may not even like the Flyers, and for that I can appreciate. But the man did transform a style of play that proved to be effective.

Mike Keenan - The game has passed him by no doubt but he's had as good - if not a better - of a coaching resume as Pat Quinn. Iron Mike wasn't always popular with everyone but eventually you have to give credit to a guy who won two Canada Cups (one vs. the '87 Russians), one Stanley Cup, and reached the final three other times each time his team playing either a prime Gretzky or Lemieux.

And on another note..............since I brought up the builders wing, when will Cherry get in there? I am not sure what more the guy has to do for the game to be honest. His face has been a symbol for the NHL and Canadian hockey for 30 years and this doesn't include when he was coaching the Bruins. We all know politics plays a part in the HHOF but honestly, Bill Wirtz and Harold Ballard but not Cherry? Wow.

You make it sound like crippling the Hawks and Leafs is a bad thing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Far From Convinced

Johnson I meant to include in my original list.

Brooks and Kilrea were oversights, but I should have mentioned them too.

The line between an AHL or junior star and an NHL star is not the same as the line between an excellent coach at the NHL level and any other level. The coach at the other level could be just as good. The lower-level player rarely is.

Far from convinced.From junior to the NHL or even pro hockey is a huge step. Biggest obstacle is communicating with adults as opposed to teenagers. Some like Claude Julien, lose adult teams by reverting to junior tactics and strategies.

Conversely there are coaches who find their niche below the NHL level - Red Berenson being a prime example at the university level, Brian Kilrea at the junior level, etc.

Not sure if it is a question of being just as good. Sense that it is a matter of finding their niche.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Far from convinced.From junior to the NHL or even pro hockey is a huge step. Biggest obstacle is communicating with adults as opposed to teenagers. Some like Claude Julien, lose adult teams by reverting to junior tactics and strategies.

Conversely there are coaches who find their niche below the NHL level - Red Berenson being a prime example at the university level, Brian Kilrea at the junior level, etc.

Not sure if it is a question of being just as good. Sense that it is a matter of finding their niche.

Ned Harkness can fit in here as well. He's one of the best college coaches of all time (and one could make an argument for the best ever), but had a largely forgettable NHL tenure.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Mismatch

Ned Harkness can fit in here as well. He's one of the best college coaches of all time (and one could make an argument for the best ever), but had a largely forgettable NHL tenure.

Probably the classic example of a mismatch between coach and team.

Veteran team - Howe, Delvecchio, Mahovlich with a university coach who barely knew the NHL.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Keenan certainly isn't the best coach in hostory, and his 95-09 career isn't close to his 84-94 career, but I think he deserves induction.

He's 4th all-time career wins. Won at absolutely every level he coached at.

Whether or not teams were better or worse after he coached, the following can't be disputed:

The 4 years he coached the Flyers are their best 4 year stretch of hockey in 35 years.

The 4 years he coached the Blackhawks are their best 4 year stretch of hockey in 40+ years.

In one season he coached the Rangers to their only Cup of the last 70 years.

 

[MS]

Keenan certainly isn't the best coach in hostory, and his 95-09 career isn't close to his 84-94 career, but I think he deserves induction.

He's 4th all-time career wins. Won at absolutely every level he coached at.

Whether or not teams were better or worse after he coached, the following can't be disputed:

The 4 years he coached the Flyers are their best 4 year stretch of hockey in 35 years.

The 4 years he coached the Blackhawks are their best 4 year stretch of hockey in 40+ years.

In one season he coached the Rangers to their only Cup of the last 70 years.

Keenan struggled post-1994, for sure.

However, his resume before that is probably the best of anyone other than Bowman post-1967.

He won at every single level you could win at. Won a championship in Canadian junior. Won a championship in Canadian university. Won an AHL Calder Cup. Won the Stanley Cup. Won 2 Canada Cups in international play.

All in a 15-year stretch.

Keenan from 1979-1994 was ridiculous. Everywhere he went, teams won. And dominated.

He was also a guy who really changed the way the game was played. More than any other coach, he was the guy who brought short shifts into the NHL - watch a game in 1980 and guys are out there for 2 minutes, and in 1990 it's totally different. That was Keenan. Rode one goalie in an era where everyone else was playing 2.

In the 1980s, his level of preparation, professionalism, and attention to detail was a step ahead of the rest of the dinosaurs coaching pro hockey. He demanded a level of effort and preparation from his coaches that others simply weren't. By the late 1990s, everyone was operating at that level, and his faults as a person began to catch up with him.

But he took coaching in this league to another level.

Personally, I think he belongs in the HHOF, coaches wing or not. Certainly more than Roger Neilson does.

__________

Cherry does belong in the builder's wing, as well. Even though I don't particularly like him.

His views on the sport have shaped the way a whole generation of fans look at the game. And the way players play the game. He's been one of the most influential voices in the sport for more than 30 years.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Counterpoint

Keenan struggled post-1994, for sure.

However, his resume before that is probably the best of anyone other than Bowman post-1967.

He won at every single level you could win at. Won a championship in Canadian junior. Won a championship in Canadian university. Won an AHL Calder Cup. Won the Stanley Cup. Won 2 Canada Cups in international play.

All in a 15-year stretch.

Keenan from 1979-1994 was ridiculous. Everywhere he went, teams won. And dominated.

He was also a guy who really changed the way the game was played. More than any other coach, he was the guy who brought short shifts into the NHL - watch a game in 1980 and guys are out there for 2 minutes, and in 1990 it's totally different. That was Keenan. Rode one goalie in an era where everyone else was playing 2.

In the 1980s, his level of preparation, professionalism, and attention to detail was a step ahead of the rest of the dinosaurs coaching pro hockey. He demanded a level of effort and preparation from his coaches that others simply weren't. By the late 1990s, everyone was operating at that level, and his faults as a person began to catch up with him.

But he took coaching in this league to another level.

Personally, I think he belongs in the HHOF, coaches wing or not. Certainly more than Roger Neilson does.

__________

Cherry does belong in the builder's wing, as well. Even though I don't particularly like him.

His views on the sport have shaped the way a whole generation of fans look at the game. And the way players play the game. He's been one of the most influential voices in the sport for more than 30 years.

Let's look at Mike Keenan's record with a critical eye.

University of Toronto. Had the benefit of coaching at a school with a post grad program that was a magnet for OHA/OHL grads.

Peterborough - piggybacked Roger Neilson and Gary Green.

Team Canada 1987 and 1991. You mention preparation and attention to detail while overlooking that in 1987 and 1991 Canada skated to uninspiring first game ties against Czechoslovakia(1987) and Finland(1991). Also in 1987 finals vs Soviets game 1, down by three, game 3 down by three after 8 minutes.Hardly evidence of preparation or attention to detail.Players stepped-up.

1994 New York Rangers. Messier steps up and leads, salvaging the cup after the Rangers had gone flat.

For the most part Mike Keenan's career reflects underachieving.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Let's look at Mike Keenan's record with a critical eye.

University of Toronto. Had the benefit of coaching at a school with a post grad program that was a magnet for OHA/OHL grads.

Peterborough - piggybacked Roger Neilson and Gary Green.

Team Canada 1987 and 1991. You mention preparation and attention to detail while overlooking that in 1987 and 1991 Canada skated to uninspiring first game ties against Czechoslovakia(1987) and Finland(1991). Also in 1987 finals vs Soviets game 1, down by three, game 3 down by three after 8 minutes.Hardly evidence of preparation or attention to detail.Players stepped-up.

1994 New York Rangers. Messier steps up and leads, salvaging the cup after the Rangers had gone flat.

For the most part Mike Keenan's career reflects underachieving.

Loooooooool "THEY LOST GAME 1 HE'S A BAD COACH"'

This is insipid drivel, and shows a complete lack of understanding of hockey on your part.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Let's look at Mike Keenan's record with a critical eye.

University of Toronto. Had the benefit of coaching at a school with a post grad program that was a magnet for OHA/OHL grads.

Peterborough - piggybacked Roger Neilson and Gary Green.

Team Canada 1987 and 1991. You mention preparation and attention to detail while overlooking that in 1987 and 1991 Canada skated to uninspiring first game ties against Czechoslovakia(1987) and Finland(1991). Also in 1987 finals vs Soviets game 1, down by three, game 3 down by three after 8 minutes.Hardly evidence of preparation or attention to detail.Players stepped-up.

1994 New York Rangers. Messier steps up and leads, salvaging the cup after the Rangers had gone flat.

For the most part Mike Keenan's career reflects underachieving.

Contempt for Keenan brought ’87 Canada Cup team together

By Scott Morrison, CBC.ca, January 26th, 2010

Before the glory, a common bond

While everything turned out well, it was a challenge for Keenan and the players to come together as a team. After a marathon training camp, Canada opened the tournament with an ordinary effort and 4-4 tie with Czechoslovakia. Keenan sent a message after that game, imposing a curfew on the team. The players, who were looking to meet up with family for the first time in weeks, were not amused.

Keenan kept pushing and pushing, getting them madder and madder as the tournament evolved, to the point that there was almost a revolt. Gretzky, Lemieux and Raymond Bourque, representing their teammates, finally had a meeting with the coach, who knew at that point 23 players had finally become a team and just in time for the playoff round in the tournament.

Those sorts of tournaments, like the Olympics, are a different beast for a coach. You don’t have a full season to develop as a team. The window is very small and when you bring players together from a variety of teams, with some lingering raw emotions from NHL play, it is a huge challenge for the players and the coaches.

Keenan kept stressing to the players that while it seemed there was lots of time to come together and improve, time was precious and moving fast. He realized he needed a common element for the players to rally around, to bring them to together, to get them focused – and that common element was their contempt for the coach and how hard he was working them.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Let's look at Mike Keenan's record with a critical eye.

University of Toronto. Had the benefit of coaching at a school with a post grad program that was a magnet for OHA/OHL grads.

Peterborough - piggybacked Roger Neilson and Gary Green.

Team Canada 1987 and 1991. You mention preparation and attention to detail while overlooking that in 1987 and 1991 Canada skated to uninspiring first game ties against Czechoslovakia(1987) and Finland(1991). Also in 1987 finals vs Soviets game 1, down by three, game 3 down by three after 8 minutes.Hardly evidence of preparation or attention to detail.Players stepped-up.

1994 New York Rangers. Messier steps up and leads, salvaging the cup after the Rangers had gone flat.

For the most part Mike Keenan's career reflects underachieving.

It's interesting that Keenan's biggest triumph may also be the most damning piece of the puzzle. By most accounts, the Rangers were unravelling in the playoffs that year. It reached a point where Messier pretty much told Keenan to "screw off and let me take care of this", and Messier delivered. I also recall an anecdote where Kevin Lowe asked Brian Leetch why he wasn't out on the ice. Leetch informed Lowe that Keenan had benched him. Lowe just shook his head and ordered Leetch back onto the ice. The inmates were running the asylum in the end. Fortunately for the Rangers, they had brought in the right inmates to do so.