Olympics: If the NHL players don't go in 2018, what happens to players in the KHL and etc?

[roto]

Good points! First, the Sochi games were truly boring, with almost no offense at all. Everyone played a trap and collapsed back into their defensive zone. It just turned out that Canada did it a little bit better than the opposition in their games. Second, winning a one-game tournament like the Olympics doesn't prove anything about which is the best hockey nation. By that logic, if the 1972 series was 1 game instead of 8, the Soviets would have been crowned the undisputed King of world hockey based on their lopsided 7-3 victory over Canada. Third, I wouldn't expect that Russia would win the 2018 Games with Euros only because Russia is still in a situation where all of its best players continue to leave to play in the NHL. Lastly, in my opinion, looking at the spectrum of world hockey, it seems that Finland might have the best claim on No. 1 in world hockey, especially on a per capita basis.

Yes. One mini tournament every four years is almost a lottery. WHC may not have best players, but sample size is bigger and sample rate higher. It still doesn't tell what's the best hockey nation, but it tells how players from different leagues can compete with each other. Some conclusions can made. NHL stars aren't any gods and many of them don't look any better than players playing in Europe.

It's a bit bold to say that Finland is no. 1 even if rated by success per capita, but something can be said. Finland doesn't have stars (except few goalies), they have some good players and a lot of quality players playing also in Europe, who are good enough to fill a team and compete with any national team.

The players may not be stars, but coaching is good, players are disciplined two-way players and they generally play well together. It guarantees consistently quite good results - usually not gold but still something better than what it looks on paper. Even though Finland is considered to have no offensive stars and being defensive, they still made most goals in Sochi (41% more than Canada with all their stars). Actually Canada was ultra-defensive too.

 

[Hitmanator]

So if Russia wins the Gold in 2018 with a roster full of KHL players, it would almost be like watching their recent Gold Medals won at the World Hockey Championships in 2008, 2009, and 2011. Those teams never won a best on best tournament, so I think the same logic could apply in 2018.

No one would care that some players didn't play olympics, everyone would only remember the history and the winner

 

[quartus]

No one would care that some players didn't play olympics, everyone would only remember the history and the winner

Exactly!

It's the same with the WHC. In a hundred years people are going to see that Russia was the world champion 2008,-09 and -11 and no one is going to be aware of how many NHL-players were there or not. Only the gold is going to count.

 

[JackSlater]

One game elimination tournaments don't prove much. One game played by ~ 23 players from two different countries, even if they are the absolute best players, cannot come close to telling us a whole lot. There is more to a hockey nation than the results of a tournament held every four years. There is more than even the strength of the full national team. Tournaments are not the search for the best (even something like an NHL playoff does not do this) but just the search for a winner.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

One game elimination tournaments don't prove much. One game played by ~ 23 players from two different countries, even if they are the absolute best players, cannot come close to telling us a whole lot. There is more to a hockey nation than the results of a tournament held every four years. There is more than even the strength of the full national team. Tournaments are not the search for the best (even something like an NHL playoff does not do this) but just the search for a winner.

Respect your opinion but cmon jack, this is the premier best on best Hockey tournament in the world and Canada has just won the last two and on both surfaces at home and in hostile territory.

That puts the stamp on number one for the time being with a fairly iron grip.It would for any country of fans here at this site.

That is pretty much the ball game. All fans look to their very best as proof they have the best program and they look to the very best players as their biggest bragging point. That does not mean 18 year olds or spengler cups or C grade car company tournaments.

It means the best you have to offer and that is the senior men.Not that we don't have the golds in womens to prove it either

Do you honestly think fans from any of the other countries would not currently think they are number one and say so if they had accomplished at the olympics what Canada just has at the senior mens level?

of course they would, that is why the olympics is such a big deal and was such a big deal around here, it is the elite of the elite and let's face facts, Canada has proven to be number one for the time being.

You know jack, it is not a sin to say Canada currently is the top Hockey nation in the world,especially when some poster who is off base for biased reasons wants to try to make it look not so when results say they are full of it(their reasoning for saying so of course would change if the country they cheer for had won the last two in the same fashion).

If they have earned that title it is not bragging to say so . Fans from other countries would have no problem saying they are number one in this or any other sport if their athletes proved it.They do it all the time, it is normal for fans in sports when they have the results to back them in their pocket.

You would think we are killing babies by admitting results.


But what he attempts to do there, minimizing and skewing the framework of the olympic results to achieve an agenda(and we all know what it is) well, some people can't help themselves and need to call out that stuff.

Like me.

Again, love your posts and always enjoy reading them but I think you missed the point there somewhat, you failed to see the intention of that post I replied to.

 

[quartus]

Do you honestly think fans from any of the other countries would not currently think they are number one and say so if they had accomplished at the olympics what Canada just has at the senior mens level?

At least Swedish fans didn't think they were the number one in hockey after winning the olympics. It just meant winning the olympics, which was huge.

I agree that Canada winning twice proves a lot though, so don't get me wrong.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

At least Swedish fans didn't think they were the number one in hockey after winning the olympics. It just meant winning the olympics, which was huge.

I agree that Canada winning twice proves a lot though, so don't get me wrong.

Some of them did, especially after winning the worlds that same year.

I remember some posters here saying as much after that double gold.

And who could blame them really?

I remember czech fans doing the same thing after the same double in 98. I remember a reporter even asked Jiri Dopita in an interview after the worlds win or the olympic one, can't recall which one and they asked something along the lines of what is the reason behind the Czechs recent great success and his answer was "it's simple, we're the best!!"

And you could not really say he or they were wrong at the time either.

This is sports, this is how we judge status.

And you are right, winning twice does indeed prove a lot. But it is not just winning twice that proves a lot, it is how it has been done twice. They have done it at home and away in the lions den in Russia far away from home, they have done it on their own familiar small ice and on the ice they did now grow up on, the ice that so many fans say they could not win on or even medal on!!

What country has done that? none. Can you imagine us debating Russias place as the best if they had accomplished this very same feat?

of course not, certainly there would be no doubts about who is number one in their mind. Can you imagine a Canadian fan making a claim that Russias accomplishments did not mean all that much and that it did not mean they were currently number 1? loads of people would be all over that and for good reason.

let's be honest here.

 

[FlutteringSaucer]

Why do Canadians have a need for these tournament to "prove" something? Everyone knows that Canada is the biggest hockey nation.

Get rid of the insecurity and that not winning the WC would "prove" that Canada isn't the biggest hockey nation and you guys could probably enjoy even the WC games a bit more...

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Why do Canadians have a need for these tournament to "prove" something? Everyone knows that Canada is the biggest hockey nation.

Get rid of the insecurity and that not winning the WC would "prove" that Canada isn't the biggest hockey nation and you guys could probably enjoy even the WC games a bit more...

If certain posters would not try to cheapen or diminish victories that are and always have been accepted as the defining results of how we rank the status of the top teams then I do not think they would feel as much need to do so.

You might look at the posts of the type i replied to initially to see why it happens.

Even using the word "biggest" in your post rather then "best" is the kind of stuff that shows that despite results that cannot be denied you and many others cannot bring yourself to admit anything.

That is why it happens I suppose.

There seems to be a lot of insecurity going around or posters on your guys side such as that one saying back to back olympic golds mean nothing would not happen.

 

[Snowsii]

Even using the word "biggest" in your post rather then "best" is the kind of stuff that shows that despite results that cannot be denied you and many others cannot bring yourself to admit anything.

Isn't Canada the biggest hockey country ? (Registered players etc)
If i remember right, it is. So calling Canada biggest hockey country is right, though it is also best, when looking at few last years.

 

[Canuck21t]

Isn't Canada the biggest hockey country ? (Registered players etc)
If i remember right, it is. So calling Canada biggest hockey country is right, though it is also best, when looking at few last years.

[mod] Yes Canada is the biggest hockey country, but that's not what Canadians want to hear. Let's not go around in circle people, Canadians want to hear that Canada is the best. I think we're the best because we won the biggest prize multiple times. It's not that we're better human beings or anything, we're the best because we have better resources. It's that simple. To the people who don't think Canada is the best I think you're just in denial.

 

[Canuck21t]

Exactly!

It's the same with the WHC. In a hundred years people are going to see that Russia was the world champion 2008,-09 and -11 and no one is going to be aware of how many NHL-players were there or not. Only the gold is going to count.

Even if one year the WHC gets all the best players in the world due to lockouts, people will always consider the WHC less than the Olympic tournament. You can pretend all you want, but every country would rather win the Olympic gold than a WHC. Just like actors would rather win an Oscar over a People's Choice award.

 

[JackSlater]

Respect your opinion but cmon jack, this is the premier best on best Hockey tournament in the world and Canada has just won the last two and on both surfaces at home and in hostile territory.

That puts the stamp on number one for the time being with a fairly iron grip.It would for any country of fans here at this site.

That is pretty much the ball game. All fans look to their very best as proof they have the best program and they look to the very best players as their biggest bragging point. That does not mean 18 year olds or spengler cups or C grade car company tournaments.

It means the best you have to offer and that is the senior men.Not that we don't have the golds in womens to prove it either

Do you honestly think fans from any of the other countries would not currently think they are number one and say so if they had accomplished at the olympics what Canada just has at the senior mens level?

of course they would, that is why the olympics is such a big deal and was such a big deal around here, it is the elite of the elite and let's face facts, Canada has proven to be number one for the time being.

You know jack, it is not a sin to say Canada currently is the top Hockey nation in the world,especially when some poster who is off base for biased reasons wants to try to make it look not so when results say they are full of it(their reasoning for saying so of course would change if the country they cheer for had won the last two in the same fashion).

If they have earned that title it is not bragging to say so . Fans from other countries would have no problem saying they are number one in this or any other sport if their athletes proved it.They do it all the time, it is normal for fans in sports when they have the results to back them in their pocket.

You would think we are killing babies by admitting results.

But what he attempts to do there, minimizing and skewing the framework of the olympic results to achieve an agenda(and we all know what it is) well, some people can't help themselves and need to call out that stuff.

Like me.

Again, love your posts and always enjoy reading them but I think you missed the point there somewhat, you failed to see the intention of that post I replied to.

I understand your point, and long term results probably have more meaning, but a one game elimination tournament in which a team might play 7 games is not a meaningful sample size. I have no problem saying that Canada is the best hockey nation. It's obvious to any remotely objective person. The reason is because of the players Canada has, not a few games in February 2014 or 2010. If Canada lost in 2010 and 2014, it wouldn't really change my opinion at all. Anything can happen in a single game elimination situation. Canada is the top hockey country because Canada produces far more elite players than any other country, not getting most of the bounces in the last two Olympic tournaments.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I understand your point, and long term results probably have more meaning, but a one game elimination tournament in which a team might play 7 games is not a meaningful sample size. I have no problem saying that Canada is the best hockey nation. It's obvious to any remotely objective person. The reason is because of the players Canada has, not a few games in February 2014 or 2010. If Canada lost in 2010 and 2014, it wouldn't really change my opinion at all. Anything can happen in a single game elimination situation. Canada is the top hockey country because Canada produces far more elite players than any other country, not getting most of the bounces in the last two Olympic tournaments.

well, that sure is a lot of "bounces" wouldn't you say?.

Really,It takes more then bounces.

Anyway, I get where you are coming from.

I just hate when some posters try to change the yardstick on what constitutes achievement and placement order when it is the exact thing they would use in their favor if the team they cheered for had achieved the very same thing.

And good heavens, can you imagine them using anything else as proof Canada is not number one and overrated if Canada managed anything less then gold the last two olympics? That would be their whole selling point. And i would not argue with them, how could I?

But when we do win them, all of a sudden to some it does not mean all that much, it proves nothing. That is what some try to pawn off on us and think can be taken seriously.

I can't help call that for what it is, bunk.

 

[TollefsenFan]

To answer the question YES the KHL, SHL, NLA etc would send their best players. The NHL dosent decide what other Leagues should or should not do.

In the future i Believe that the biggest KHL Clubs will Challenge the NHL. Dynamo, CSKA and SKA will all have great arenas (SKA ice palace, Legends arena and VTB arena)and big sponsors (Companies, Rich People etc) The rest of the KHL will never be even Close to the NHL. So the KHL as a League wont have much Power in international hockey. Only the NHL and IIHF.

 

[FiLe]

I just hate when some posters try to change the yardstick on what constitutes achievement and placement order when it is the exact thing they would use in their favor if the team they cheered for had achieved the very same thing.

Everyone does it. If Canada had not won in Sochi, this place would be full of Canadians citing the very same reasons, (overall results, player production, etc) to argue why they are the "true" number ones.

Most of the world agrees, so it's no real source of drama. But I wouldn't be surprised if you, too, were a little more eager to agree with JackSlater.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Everyone does it. If Canada had not won in Sochi, this place would be full of Canadians citing the very same reasons, (overall results, player production, etc) to argue why they are the "true" number ones.

Most of the world agrees, so it's no real source of drama. But I wouldn't be surprised if you, too, were a little more eager to agree with JackSlater.

My point was this, when you have won back to back olympics and done it in every way demanded of you then do not try to insult our intelligence by saying it proves nothing.

That point still stands.

 

[FiLe]

My point was this, when you have won back to back olympics and done it in every way demanded of you then do not try to insult our intelligence by saying it proves nothing.

It proves that Canada can win a big ice olympic tournament on the other side of the world.

It does not, however, prove that Canada is #1 hockey country on this Earth. That is proved by other things entirely. All the gold they haul in is not a reason to claim this. It is the consequence.


Your point is that you want a legitimate reason to thump your chest. You don't need one though, so go crazy.

 

[JackSlater]

It does not, however, prove that Canada is #1 hockey country on this Earth. That is proved by other things entirely. All the gold they haul in is not a reason to claim this. It is the consequence.

You elegantly made my point. You aren't good because you win - you win because you are good.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

It proves that Canada can win a big ice olympic tournament on the other side of the world.

It does not, however, prove that Canada is #1 hockey country on this Earth. That is proved by other things entirely. All the gold they haul in is not a reason to claim this. It is the consequence.


Your point is that you want a legitimate reason to thump your chest. You don't need one though, so go crazy.

No, my point was to say the original post that I replied to used reasoning that would never be used if the team he cheered for had done what Canada has done. Which is true.

If i wanted to pump my chest I would not have had to respond to that in order to do so. I could have just made a thread doing so.

But that is not what I did, I pointed out the hypocrisy of the post.

That was my point.

 

[JackSlater]

No, my point was to say the original post that I replied to used reasoning that would never be used if the team he cheered for had done what Canada has done. Which is true.

If i wanted to pump my chest I would not have had to respond to that in order to do so. I could have just made a thread doing so.

But that is not what I did, I pointed out the hypocrisy of the post.

That was my point.

There is no question that there is a ton of hypocrisy in these matters. If any other country had won three of the past four Olympics (four of last five best on best tournaments) pretty much every person would hang their hat on that accomplishment. The bar does get changed by some posters because of sour grapes. Canada won in 2002 because of being in North America and Belarus upsetting Sweden, Canada won in 2004 because Europeans don't care and it was in Canada, Canada won in 2010 because it was home ice plus it barely counts since they went to overtime and looked weak early in the tournament, Canada won in 2014 but didn't win every game by massive amounts. This goes on forever, but Canadian fans would do it too if Canada had lost all of those tournaments. Simply an annoying aspect of human interaction.

To tie this into the main topic of the thread, be ready for the gold medal equivalency that will take place even if the NHL does not participate in 2018. It will be "still an Olympic gold medal" and plenty of posters will ridiculously give it the same value as any other Olympic gold... once their team wins it. That is the nature of fandom. If Canada wins a 2018 gold medal without NHLers, the level of boasting (we won even without hundreds of our best players, it was a Z team etc.) will be incredible.

 

[FiLe]

No, my point was to say the original post that I replied to used reasoning that would never be used if the team he cheered for had done what Canada has done. Which is true.

There is the issue - you say "would be" rather than "is". You're arguing against an argument you built yourself.

You do appear to cite some throwaway comments about people representing other countries claiming they're "the best" after a big win, but those are more or less spur-of-the-moment emotional yelps which should hardly be accounted into objective evidence. When the hubbub dies down and things go back to normal, most people are very much willing to admit that they've only been "the best" in a rather short timeframe.

Except the Canadians. Despite them being considered the best overall, they don't really settle for the silent admission of the fact. No, there are likes who want to hear the world say it in their faces, repeatedly. Doubly so when they lose. When people behave like this, you can't really blame those who see 'em as little insecure.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Whatever man.

Contending that doing what Canada has done the last 2 olympics does not mean anything is a far cry from any silent admission of facts.

But you believe what you want.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

There is no question that there is a ton of hypocrisy in these matters. If any other country had won three of the past four Olympics (four of last five best on best tournaments) pretty much every person would hang their hat on that accomplishment. The bar does get changed by some posters because of sour grapes. Canada won in 2002 because of being in North America and Belarus upsetting Sweden, Canada won in 2004 because Europeans don't care and it was in Canada, Canada won in 2010 because it was home ice plus it barely counts since they went to overtime and looked weak early in the tournament, Canada won in 2014 but didn't win every game by massive amounts. This goes on forever, but Canadian fans would do it too if Canada had lost all of those tournaments. Simply an annoying aspect of human interaction.

To tie this into the main topic of the thread, be ready for the gold medal equivalency that will take place even if the NHL does not participate in 2018. It will be "still an Olympic gold medal" and plenty of posters will ridiculously give it the same value as any other Olympic gold... once their team wins it. That is the nature of fandom. If Canada wins a 2018 gold medal without NHLers, the level of boasting (we won even without hundreds of our best players, it was a Z team etc.) will be incredible.

yeah, you are spot on here.

 

[Yakushev72]

I am not sure I'm understanding all the self-pity and lashing out at the unwashed masses of the World over the No.1 ranking. Other threads devoted to ranking hockey nations have given Canada full credit for having won in Sochi. I am not aware of one single poster who failed to rank Canada No. 1. I ranked Canada No. 1, followed by Sweden and Finland tied for No. 2, followed by the United States and Russia tied for No. 4. I think that's a fair assessment, based on performance in those tournaments that should rightfully factor into the national ranking (OG, WC, WJC).

I agree with JackSlater that a one-game tournament victory is not as impressive as winning a series of games, mainly because anything can happen in a one-game series that could cause the better team to lose a single game. While I believe that everyone will agree that Canada painted a defensive masterpiece in Sochi, they were far from being sufficiently dazzling on offense to merit being described as "dominant," which some posters seem to cry out for. Maybe its fair to say that, based on the scale of resources that Canada pours into hockey in comparison to other nations that you have a right to the expectation of dominance, but only if based on actual on-ice performance.