Speculation: If Jagr had been a "natural center"

[JQR]

With all the buzz surrounding Crosby and Malkin sharing a line and just how effective it has been in this series, I couldn't help but wonder how much different the lines would have been if Jagr had been labeled as a "natural center."

Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know much of anything about the Penguins during the time that Jagr and Lemieux played together outside of the fact that they did, in fact, play together. And they were and absolute force to be reckoned with. So that's why I'm opening this up to guys that definitely know more about those days than I.

So here's a hypothetical: let's pretend that Jagr's playstyle fit into the role of a natural center more so than a wing. In his prime he was an amazing playmaker (in fact, he is still formidable even into his 40s), so I guess it would really just come down to his positioning on the ice, his ability to win draws, and a more pronounced 2-way role (the latter being, in my opinion, the greatest distinction between the roles of center and wing).

I wonder what those years in Pittsburgh would have looked like if those that be tried to construct a team around two world class centers. If they had tried to construct two amazing lines as opposed to a phenomenal first line and a formidable second line.

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[smetana]

Lemieux, Francis, Jagr down the middle.

Ray Shero would have busted a nut having those guys for his "3C Model".

 

[Gurglesons]

Lemieux, Francis, Jagr down the middle.

Ray Shero would have busted a nut having those guys for his "3C Model".

You assume they would've let Cullen or Trottier take the 3rd line and turned one of Francis or Jagr into a winger.

 

[billybudd]

With all the buzz surrounding Crosby and Malkin sharing a line and just how effective it has been in this series, I couldn't help but wonder how much different the lines would have been if Jagr had been labeled as a "natural center."

Now, I'm not going to pretend that I know much of anything about the Penguins during the time that Jagr and Lemieux played together outside of the fact that they did, in fact, play together. And they were and absolute force to be reckoned with. So that's why I'm opening this up to guys that definitely know more about those days than I.

So here's a hypothetical: let's pretend that Jagr's playstyle fit into the role of a natural center more so than a wing. In his prime he was an amazing playmaker (in fact, he is still formidable even into his 40s), so I guess it would really just come down to his positioning on the ice, his ability to win draws, and a more pronounced 2-way role (the latter being, in my opinion, the greatest distinction between the roles of center and wing).

I wonder what those years in Pittsburgh would have looked like if those that be tried to construct a team around two world class centers. If they had tried to construct two amazing lines as opposed to a phenomenal first line and a formidable second line.

Mario would have played left wing, though that doesn't mean they'd have been on the same line. Fun fact--for much of Mario's career, he was center in name only. Took the draw, moved over to left wing.

In addition, during those years the Penguins were constructed around two world class centers. Francis didn't ride coat tails to the hockey hall of fame.

How do I explain what Francis did...it's difficult because there's no direct comparable. I'd say Derek Stepan, but the comparison's inadequate. Stepan doesn't have Francis' slapshot, vision, hockey smarts, size or ability to redirect pucks...probably not his defense, either. Just his muffin of a wrist shot and mediocre mobility.

Edit: Mikko Koivu, maybe? But he's stronger on the puck. There's gotta be a similar player to Francis that I'm overlooking.

 

[Jesper]

Kris Beech??

 

[Gurglesons]

Mario would have played left wing, though that doesn't mean they'd have been on the same line. Fun fact--for much of Mario's career, he was center in name only. Took the draw, moved over to left wing.

In addition, during those years the Penguins were constructed around two world class centers. Francis didn't ride coat tails to the hockey hall of fame.

How do I explain what Francis did...it's difficult because there's no direct comparable. I'd say Derek Stepan, but the comparison's inadequate. Stepan doesn't have Francis' slapshot, vision, hockey smarts, size or ability to redirect pucks...probably not his defense, either. Just his muffin of a wrist shot and mediocre mobility.

Edit: Mikko Koivu, maybe? But he's stronger on the puck. There's gotta be a similar player to Francis that I'm overlooking.

Kopitar?

 

[Blago]

Jagr did play center for the 20 game stretch in 92-93 when Lemeuix was out with cancer. The 1st game the Pens had Mullen at center between Stevens and Tocchet but that didn't work. So for the next 2 months the pens top 2 lines were Stevens-Francis-Mullen and McEachern-Jagr-Tocchet

 

[billybudd]

Kopitar?

I thought of him, but he's probably a little too fancy to be a stylistic match to Francis.

Kris Beech??

Haha, nice.

 

[smetana]

You assume they would've let Cullen or Trottier take the 3rd line and turned one of Francis or Jagr into a winger.

Yeah, my comment was mostly tongue in cheek. Keep in mind those teams were three-line teams. Running a true fourth line didn't come into vogue until later on (it was the devils who made that chic, IIRC). But one of the three would certainly move to the wing, and it wouldn't have been Ronnie. Mario to LW (which he was accustomed to at times--as said above) or Jags. So, you'd end up with the same result, essentially. Oh, BTW, Cullen and Francis never played together at that time. Not till '94.

Jagr did play center for the 20 game stretch in 92-93 when Lemeuix was out with cancer. The 1st game the Pens had Mullen at center between Stevens and Tocchet but that didn't work. So for the next 2 months the pens top 2 lines were Stevens-Francis-Mullen and McEachern-Jagr-Tocchet

Jagr played a pretty decent amount at center in his younger days. He played there a crap-ton in '94-'95 w/o Lemieux.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Mario would have played left wing, though that doesn't mean they'd have been on the same line. Fun fact--for much of Mario's career, he was center in name only. Took the draw, moved over to left wing.

In addition, during those years the Penguins were constructed around two world class centers. Francis didn't ride coat tails to the hockey hall of fame.

How do I explain what Francis did...it's difficult because there's no direct comparable. I'd say Derek Stepan, but the comparison's inadequate. Stepan doesn't have Francis' slapshot, vision, hockey smarts, size or ability to redirect pucks...probably not his defense, either. Just his muffin of a wrist shot and mediocre mobility.

Edit: Mikko Koivu, maybe? But he's stronger on the puck. There's gotta be a similar player to Francis that I'm overlooking.

Very much so.

Francis was/is criminally underrated then and now. And while we're at it, Cullen wasn't a slouch either at the time he was traded. He basically carried the top 6 while Lemieux was out with back problems. It's easy to overlook his production in comparison to Le Magnifique's, but before the injuries derailed a once-promising career, Cullen was producing at around a point a game for large swaths of time.

 

[Pens1566]

You assume they would've let Cullen or Trottier take the 3rd line and turned one of Francis or Jagr into a winger.

Cullen was moved out in the deal that brought Francis in. Never here at the same time.

 

[Gurglesons]

Cullen was moved out in the deal that brought Francis in. Never here at the same time.

Yeah, I was pretty small at the time. Forget details like that. Still, Jagr was on the team..

 

[billybudd]

How do I explain what Francis did...it's difficult because there's no direct comparable. I'd say Derek Stepan, but the comparison's inadequate. Stepan doesn't have Francis' slapshot, vision, hockey smarts, size or ability to redirect pucks...probably not his defense, either. Just his muffin of a wrist shot and mediocre mobility.

Edit: Mikko Koivu, maybe? But he's stronger on the puck. There's gotta be a similar player to Francis that I'm overlooking.

Put the Francis question to the History of Hockey forum and they came up with Patrice Bergeron, which should have been obvious (trading size for mobility and making him a little less effective overall, the comparison makes sense). Don't know how I didn't think of him.

They also threw out Toews and Datsyuk. The latter, I don't agree with at all, however.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Mario would have played left wing, though that doesn't mean they'd have been on the same line. Fun fact--for much of Mario's career, he was center in name only. Took the draw, moved over to left wing.

In addition, during those years the Penguins were constructed around two world class centers. Francis didn't ride coat tails to the hockey hall of fame.

How do I explain what Francis did...it's difficult because there's no direct comparable. I'd say Derek Stepan, but the comparison's inadequate. Stepan doesn't have Francis' slapshot, vision, hockey smarts, size or ability to redirect pucks...probably not his defense, either. Just his muffin of a wrist shot and mediocre mobility.

Edit: Mikko Koivu, maybe? But he's stronger on the puck. There's gotta be a similar player to Francis that I'm overlooking.

The guy you're looking for is, Yzerman.

 

[psu711]

The guy you're looking for is, Yzerman.

Or Pat LaFontaine, but neither of these guys are really current comparisons.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Or Pat LaFontaine, but neither of these guys are really current comparisons.

Perhas, though I think Yzerman's two-way play was closer to Francis' without sacrificing production.

But just seeing LaFontaine mentioned again makes me incredibly sad at how badly the NHL (and hockey culture) handled concussions.

 

[psu711]

to the OP, the more I watch Geno at wing, and the more we talk about the responsibilities of the C position... the more I think Geno plays like a 68'esk type wing.

On a team with no depth, he could be a L1 center. His "free skating" style probably fits better at wing without the defensive responsibilities of a center.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I've always been a supporter of the Sid-Geno combination when there's a need. I really don't see the problem with overloading the top line, and then splitting it up once opponents start keying in on that line, or if you're facing a defensively deeper opponent. So in that, I agree with psu.

But even today, Malkin's defensively way better than Jagr was in the 90's as both a wing and a center.

 

[gopens66]

As already mentioned, the team was designed around two world-class centers. Actually, it was three world-class centers. Trottier may have been at the end of his career, but he was a perfect third-line center for Pittsburgh and welcomed his role with the team.

I agree with the statement that Ron Francis is the most underrated player, maybe ever.

I am not sure if I have ever seen a smarter player than Francis.

Also, I may be reading it wrongly, but is the OP suggesting that Lemieux and Jagr played mostly together on the same line, or just that they were on the same team, and what if they were both centers?

I'm just asking because they didn't play regularly on the same line until '96 I believe.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is why my favorite Pens team of all time is the 1991-1992 squad. What an embarrasment of riches. Trottier, Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Stevens, Tocchet, Murphy, Barrasso, Mullen, and then 20 some odd other warm bodies.

 

[JQR]

Also, I may be reading it wrongly, but is the OP suggesting that Lemieux and Jagr played mostly together on the same line, or just that they were on the same team, and what if they were both centers?

I'm just asking because they didn't play regularly on the same line until '96 I believe.

Mainly that their line(s) were some of the most productive we have seen, and I was wondering how things would have been different had Jagr been a center (how reluctant would the coaching staff be to move Jagr from a 2nd line center to a 1st line winger, how the team composition would have been different with a more defensive Jagr in a 2C position, etc). Purely speculation. This thread is great though, the posts have been a pleasure to read. Gives me some jumping-off points on topics to read more about.

 

[psu711]

This is why my favorite Pens team of all time is the 1991-1992 squad. What an embarrasment of riches. Trottier, Lemieux, Francis, Jagr, Stevens, Tocchet, Murphy, Barrasso, Mullen, and then 20 some odd other warm bodies.

Im glad you didnt mention that Goof Bob Errey..

Murphy and francis were 2 of my all time fav Pens.

Embarrassment of riches FO SHO

Even a young Shawn McEachern!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Jagr has always been highly resistant to coaching, which has bitten him in the ass over the years. Most notably during the last Olympics there was a lot of talk here in Prague about how Jagr's insistance at playing top minutes and cherry picking cost them a shot at a medal. One of the great things about the 90's teams is that the talent was spread, and that the top talent was almost constantly on the ice (since as was pointed out, nobody really rolled 4 lines back then).

 

[HandshakeLine]

Im glad you didnt mention that Goof Bob Errey..

Murphy and francis were 2 of my all time fav Pens.

Embarrassment of riches FO SHO

Even a young Shawn McEachern!

Eh, I like Errey, even as a commentator. I would like him a lot more if someone would dose him before he went on air, though. Think of the comedic potential! "Holy SMOKES Steigy! A fish rode a bicycle through a Pterodactyl's eyeball! TWO HEADED MONSTERS STABBED MY PICKLE! AND THEY'RE ALL DRINKING THE WATER!"

"...Thanks for that Bob. Now here's Jay Caulfield with his Etch-a-Sketch."

But as a player, I think he was underrated. He was a servicable, defensively sound winger who could pot a few on his own and knew how to play with superior talent, much like the oft-maligned Dupuis. That's a rare thing on any squad. He was fine anywhere in the top 9 and didn't complain once new acquisitions bumped him down to the 3rd line.

 

[Bishop7979]

I still think that one of my favorite lines to watch play was the Nedved, Francis, Jagr line from 95/96, but that 92/93 team with four 100+ pt scorers and jagr getting like 96 was insane not to mention didn't murphy get almost 90 that year too?