If Gretzky started playing in todays NHL

[CarlWinslow]

Gretzky's competition at the time was weak, as many of the world's best players were stuck behind the iron curtain, and the science of conditioning has come a long way. Many of the teams were populated with players that would be AHL level or worse in today's league. Goaltending equipment and average skill level of goalies during Gretzky's prime was laughable compared to today.

That said, Gretzky was deserving of his star status though, it's not his fault that he was 30 years ahead of his time. If he came into the league today, I think his peak would be around a 50 goal, 100 assist season, but he'd consistently be in the 120's to 130's point range and finish his career somewhere around 500 goals, 1000 assists.

Really? The Soviet's main trio was the KLM line at the time. They all got shots in the NHL and Larionov had by far the best career which was still mediocre. The impact of Euros would have been minimal and talent pool in the 80s was better than it is today.

Gretzky himself and his equipment would be as evolved as goalies and their's negating that as well.

You are flat out wrong.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I like the 2nd part of your post alot. And even the first paragraph has much truth to it. I just don't think it would have mattered in Gretzky's case. He led the World Jrs in scoring when he went there. He led the 81, 84, 87, and 91 Canada Cups in scoring, even against the best from behind the Iron Curtain and even with their year-round training and conditioning. Maybe he wouldn't have won some of those scoring races by 75 or 79 points if the top Soviet players were here in the NHL. But EVERY tournament he played in (until the 98 Olympics a year before retirement) he led the tourney in scoring, even on teams where Canada wasn't good enough to win the gold. I can't help but think that those 70+ point margins may have dropped a little, but its not like any of the top Soviets would have taken his Art Ross trophies.

Its much easier to have 1 good game or a couple good games in a shortened tournament and upset things a bit than it is to outscore someone like Gretzky over a full season, who was the most consistant producer of points ever. But even that didn't happen - no matter if it was 8 games or 80, he always seemed to come out on top.

Really? The Soviet's main trio was the KLM line at the time. They all got shots in the NHL and Larionov had by far the best career which was still mediocre. The impact of Euros would have been minimal and talent pool in the 80s was better than it is today.

Gretzky himself and his equipment would be as evolved as goalies and their's negating that as well.

You are flat out wrong.

as i understand it, the iron curtain/quality of competition isn't really about one or a few guys (e.g., makarov) challenging gretzky for the art ross. it's about the best players playing in the USSR and czechoslovakia replacing the worst players in the NHL (e.g., in comes prime kasatonov and fetisov, out go two #6-7 defenders you've never heard of). undoubtedly, this would have had some effect on the overall competitiveness of the league, because the average NHL player is better in a league with iron curtain players than without. the question is the degree of this effect.

would this have been enough to change the levels that gretzky scored at? and, more importantly, were there enough NHL-calibre players behind the iron curtain to significantly alter the overall competitiveness of the NHL? hard to say. if nothing else though, it would have made gretzky work (even) harder to earn his points.

 

[Trottier]

Which brings me to my next question... what's wrong with comparing players across eras? How does it make one insecure? It's a lot of fun and immensely interesting for a lot of us, clearly.

Absolutely nothing wrong with it, and I stated as much in the first part of my last post. And it is "fun", as it often makes for a lot of unintentional humorous reading for others of us.



As you well know, there is a vast difference between an opinion based upon meaningful observation and interpretation of data (such as you present here often)...and only based on a shallow bed of lazy cliches and ignorance.

With regard to the former, one does not have to agree with the point of view to respect it fully. One sees throught the latter quite easily.

(And easier to get away with it elsewhere on HF.)

 

[CarlWinslow]

as i understand it, the iron curtain/quality of competition isn't really about one or a few guys (e.g., makarov) challenging gretzky for the art ross. it's about the best players playing in the USSR and czechoslovakia replacing the worst players in the NHL (e.g., in comes prime kasatonov and fetisov, out go two #6-7 defenders you've never heard of). undoubtedly, this would have had some effect on the overall competitiveness of the league, because the average NHL player is better in a league with iron curtain players than without. the question is the degree of this effect.

would this have been enough to change the levels that gretzky scored at? and, more importantly, were there enough NHL-calibre players behind the iron curtain to significantly alter the overall competitiveness of the NHL? hard to say. if nothing else though, it would have made gretzky work (even) harder to earn his points.

That's the point. There were not enough players behind the iron curtain who would have good enough to make any significant difference in his point totals. A handful of Euros is not going to change the league especially when their best players make minimal impact.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Absolutely nothing wrong with it, and I stated as much in the first part of my last post. And it is fun, as it often makes for a a lot of unintentional humorous reading for others of us.

If that's a not-so-subtle way of suggesting that what we do here isn't valuable, then feel free to skip those threads.

 

[TANK200]

If that's a not-so-subtle way of suggesting that what we do here isn't valuable, then feel free to skip those threads.

I think he recognizes that what we do here is, in fact, extremely valuable. Some of the discussion in this section may one day save lives.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I think he recognizes that what we do here is, in fact, extremely valuable. Some of the discussion in this section may one day save lives.

Exactly. And once we get federal funding, no one can stop us!

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

That's the point. There were not enough players behind the iron curtain who would have good enough to make any significant difference in his point totals. A handful of Euros is not going to change the league especially when their best players make minimal impact.

is this a fact, or (extrapolating from your previous post) is this an observation based on what makarov, fetisov, et al. did in north america after their primes?

i'm open to reasonable arguments on either side.

 

[CarlWinslow]

is this a fact, or (extrapolating from your previous post) is this an observation based on what makarov, fetisov, et al. did in north america after their primes?

i'm open to reasonable arguments on either side.

It's an observation. There is no fact when discussing a hypothetical situation. I'm just surmising that a handful of middle of the road type of players would not do any damage to Gretzky's numbers. Had those guys come over and taken the league by storm, I would be more inclined to think that they might impact his stats.

 

[edog37]

LOL, people couldn't believe Gretzky did the things he did back then, either. But he did them.

I swear, 20 years from now, some kids are going to be saying that Ovechkin's style of shooting anywhere from the ice "definitely wouldn't work in today's game, why didn't they just block his shots?"

doesn't matter since teams have started to figure out his outside-in move....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's an observation. There is no fact when discussing a hypothetical situation. I'm just surmising that a handful of middle of the road type of players would not do any damage to Gretzky's numbers. Had those guys come over and taken the league by storm, I would be more inclined to think that they might impact his stats.

by "is this is a fact?", i was asking if you had evidence or an argument to back up your observation

 

[pirate94]

todays NHL is probably geared more towards Gretzky's game.
same player in todays NHL with the same drive and skill would do wonders.

 

[livewell68]

todays NHL is probably geared more towards Gretzky's game.
same player in todays NHL with the same drive and skill would do wonders.

Maybe so but I think we can all agree that we can never ever know for sure what he might have done.

What we do know is that he holds 61 records and that cannot be taken away from him .It does not though take away from what players from any other era, including the late 90's and beyond have accomplished.

 

[Confound]

I'll say 165-170 would be a reasonable season for WG.

 

[Confound]

todays NHL is probably geared more towards Gretzky's game.
same player in todays NHL with the same drive and skill would do wonders.

Agreed, was just thinking the same thing, back then it was more defense, Gretzky would rip apart this new NHL.

 

[pirate94]

I'll say 165-170 would be a reasonable season for WG.

Sounds reasonable to me without actually seeing it happen and having to guess on it.

 

[livewell68]

Agreed, was just thinking the same thing, back then it was more defense, Gretzky would rip apart this new NHL.

Gretzky might have ripped apart any era of the NHL but the 1980's was not more defense. It was less defense and that is a fact based on scoring rates, based on goaltending and the increased use of the Neutral Zone Trap.

 

[pirate94]

the thing i find that would help him so much would be removing that red line, it's just things like that are just difference makers for a pure offensive talent like him

 

[pirate94]

Agreed, was just thinking the same thing, back then it was more defense, Gretzky would rip apart this new NHL.

Having that red line made it easier defensively.

 

[JoeMalone]

15g-25a a season.
Career numbers around 50g-75a-125pts.

The guy is 50 years old with a bad back and hasn't been in game shape for about twelve years. I don't think he'd have more than 3 seasons in him.


Unless I misunderstand the question....

 

[pirate94]

15g-25a a season.
Career numbers around 50g-75a-125pts.

The guy is 50 years old with a bad back and hasn't been in game shape for about twelve years. I don't think he'd have more than 3 seasons in him.


Unless I misunderstand the question....

how i interpereted it would be if Gretzky was a rookie this season.........

 

[seventieslord]

15g-25a a season.
Career numbers around 50g-75a-125pts.

The guy is 50 years old with a bad back and hasn't been in game shape for about twelve years. I don't think he'd have more than 3 seasons in him.


Unless I misunderstand the question....

It's been done.

 

[Trottier]

If that's a not-so-subtle way of suggesting that what we do here isn't valuable, then feel free to skip those threads.

Impossible to do so.

For a thread can (and often does) contain both highly insightful, informed content AND comical blather.

One puts up with the latter in order to get to the former.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Several Stanley Cups.

Just like before.

The stat (priority) that matters most to him, no doubt.

He was an impact player of epic porportion who LED Cup winners.

He'd be same circa 2011, unlike any other current player.

The game and civilization has not evolved nearly as much as the "Born Yesterday" crew would love for us to believe. In fact, it's changed very little. (Sorry, Generation Nu NHL - your era is not that important, unique or superior than any other prior. Deal with it. )

Gretzky's great vision would have him, depending on the situation of his team and coach at the 40-60 goal range and 80-110 assist range in today's NHL. Maybe more assists and less goals but it would really depend on the team and coach he was with.

But I'm truly wondering what game you are watching to say that the game has changed very little since 79 when Wayne first came into the league.

I know the puck is the same and each team has 5 skaters and a goalie but the game has changed quite a bit and to deny that just makes you look like you don't actually watch the game today and can compare the differences.

Wayne would still do very well in toady's game and heck might even excel in it close to the level that he did in the 80's or he might not do that well and only star.

To say that the game has changed very little is showing either complete ignorance or a lack of actually viewing IMO and I don't say this with any harm intended it just points out how ridiculous that statement is in the context of the OP's question.

 

[Boxscore]

The game has changed a ton since 79 when Gretzky broke into the league. But what we need to realize is, the thing that made Gretzky uber special was his unique mind for the game and vision. Even in the 80s, Gretzky was never the best skater, shooter, bodycheker, etc. It was his superior hockey sense that made him dominant compared to his peers. IMO, it is doing Gretzky a huge disservice to say he still wouldn't dominate the current era.