If Canada had the most talented teams back then...

[Inner Gear]

Anatoli Firsov, Soviet forward:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5048737491475784759

...Valerka [Valeri Nikitin, Soviet defender] once made me lose my patience, and I seriously hurt him with stick...it's forbidden...I still very upset about it... We have no right to do such things, [hockey] is our profession, our bread...it's our duty to not injury others...

 

[Fredrik_71]

Pretty lame thread. Playing hockey is tuff. Canadiens play hockey with an edge, not necessarily unfair. Of course there are some guys that went to far (e.g. Bobby Clarke). Nowadays every nation is prepared for it and its not a big deal anymore. If the canadiens were really intent on wreking havoc they would have added a goon or two to the rooster. Thanks god it hasn't happened, yet.

/Cheers

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Pretty lame thread. Playing hockey is tuff. Canadiens play hockey with an edge, not necessarily unfair. Of course there are some guys that went to far (e.g. Bobby Clarke). Nowadays every nation is prepared for it and its not a big deal anymore. If the canadiens were really intent on wreking havoc they would have added a goon or two to the rooster. Thanks god it hasn't happened, yet.

/Cheers

If they were intent on wrecking havoc, they would have been able to do it without a goon. Guys like Bobby Clarke could start a riot.

 

[Zine]

Pretty lame thread. Playing hockey is tuff. Canadiens play hockey with an edge, not necessarily unfair. Of course there are some guys that went to far (e.g. Bobby Clarke). Nowadays every nation is prepared for it and its not a big deal anymore. If the canadiens were really intent on wreking havoc they would have added a goon or two to the rooster. Thanks god it hasn't happened, yet.

/Cheers

Thing is, even without goons, you can't win in today's game playing the old 1970s Canada style....you'd be sitting in the box the whole game. This is primarily why Canada has put so much more emphasis on finesse the past decade or so.

Tough physical hockey is great. However, what those old Soviet teams had to put up with in those Canada Cups was outrageous......shots to the head, elbows, charges, punches, slashes, cross-checks; and of course when the Soviets responded they were the ones sent to the box.

 

[Inner Gear]

If the canadiens were really intent on wreking havoc they would have added a goon or two to the rooster. Thanks god it hasn't happened, yet.

It's because Canadians changed a little their minds after 1979 Challenge Cup:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/1979ChallengeCup/1979NotEnoughAnymore.html
Serge Savard, the Canadiens' defense great who did his utmost to make it look respectable throughout the series, may have said it all when he declared, "we've been developing goons in the last 10 years instead of hockey players." It certainly showed in the Challenge Cup series.

http://www.1972summitseries.com/1979ChallengeCup/1979Predictions.html
Vancouver's Harry Neale was willing to give the Russians a little more credit than most of his colleagues. "It will be a desperate struggle. The players must apply themselves. The guys have to stay out of the penalty box because there is just no reasonable way you can intimidate them (the Soviets).

To be honest, in 1987 Canada Cup they found other way to stay out of the penalty box

 

[Big Phil]

Typical example of how Canada uses it's physical play to beat another team. The 2005 WJC Gold Medal game. Crosby, Phaneuf and Richards (?) all threw hard clean hits at Ovechkin. He couldn't hack it and left the game. Canada was far more talented than the Soviets but also had that physical edge that literally made them dominate games that year in a laughable fashion. They beat Russians that game 6-1 with all goals coming in the first two periods. They let up, or else it'd have been 9-1. Since hitting is a part of hockey, no team can do that better than Canada

 

[Big Phil]

Thing is, even without goons, you can't win in today's game playing the old 1970s Canada style....you'd be sitting in the box the whole game. This is primarily why Canada has put so much more emphasis on finesse the past decade or so.

Tough physical hockey is great. However, what those old Soviet teams had to put up with in those Canada Cups was outrageous......shots to the head, elbows, charges, punches, slashes, cross-checks; and of course when the Soviets responded they were the ones sent to the box.

Team Canada had 31 penalties to the Soviets 4 in Game #6 of the Summit Series. What is this example you are seeing of the Russians getting sent to the box on a consistent basis?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Do PGA golfers and NFL players have the same ethics while competing in their sports simply because they are Americans?

First consider that a large portion of PGA golfers aren't American...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

This, by the way, constitutes a general warning. Xenophobic comments designed only to incite are not tolerated here. I understand that this is a passionate issue, but make your points, but make them as an adult would make them. Thanks.

 

[ziggo66]

the last bench clearing brawl between the Soviets and Canada was started by the Soviets in 1987 world juniors.....do you remember? Canada was leading 7-1 and was about to win the Gold medal....Soviet player Kicked a Canadian player and started the brawl....Both teams were Disqualified.....but then the Soviets didnt really lose much as Canada was cheated out of the Gold medal.... so tell me when the last time the Canadians played like they were in the WWE?....let me know the date and tournament because I can't remember of any as you say!

Just to give an example from the World Championships 1997:


Canad lost that game, but rebounded and beat the Russians 2-1 with three guys suspended two days later. Canada went on to the finals against Sweden and won gold.
That's great stuff IMO, that brawl made a team out of the Canadian players.

 

[MXD]

The most violent sport matchup ever was probably an Hungary vs. USSR water-polo game in the 56 Olympics, so I don't think they should have any lessons to give to anybody.

 

[Fredrik_71]

Just to give an example from the World Championships 1997:

Wow. That actually wasn't representativ of Canadien hockey, IMO. Cowards ganging up on single players, phuiiii. That **** wouldn't fly today. ****ing cowards!!

/Cheers

 

[Zine]

Team Canada had 31 penalties to the Soviets 4 in Game #6 of the Summit Series. What is this example you are seeing of the Russians getting sent to the box on a consistent basis?

I'm talking about Canada Cups.

Typical example of how Canada uses it's physical play to beat another team. The 2005 WJC Gold Medal game. Crosby, Phaneuf and Richards (?) all threw hard clean hits at Ovechkin. He couldn't hack it and left the game. Canada was far more talented than the Soviets but also had that physical edge that literally made them dominate games that year in a laughable fashion. They beat Russians that game 6-1 with all goals coming in the first two periods. They let up, or else it'd have been 9-1. Since hitting is a part of hockey, no team can do that better than Canada

2005 WJC Canada is not what we're talking about though. To remain effective, Canada has really been forced to clean up its game in recent years......it wasn't representative of the dirty cheap-shot intimidation style Canada employed in the 1970s/80s that this thread is about.

 

[YMB29]

Ethics?????........Soviet athletes in the olympics had more dope in thier bodies than all of Columbia....not to mention the dishonest soviet judges......Ethics...give me a break

Any proof of that or are you just babbling?

 

[greatgazoo]

"what those old Soviet teams had to put up with in those Canada Cups was outrageous......shots to the head, elbows, charges, punches, slashes, cross-checks;"

OH, so in other words they had to play NHL-style hockey.

Boo-whoo. You're crying me a river.

 

[finchster]

Let’s be honest both our teams employed tactics that were dirty to win Russians aren’t the saints of international hockey. I can’t sit there and claim Canada always won in a clean way but guess what? Russians cut corners did everything they could every time to win and so did everyone else, plain and simple. I hate these “Russian myths†that Russians are different from everyone else, cleaner, ethics blah blah blah. If you drop the rhetoric from your analysis maybe you would have something important to say.

The real reason Russian cheap shots were different from Canadian cheap shots is because their forms of hockey developed independent of each other, and as such different styles of play were created. When different styles clashed that’s what happened tough dirty play ON BOTH SIDES. Canadians haven’t gotten ‘cleaner’ hockey has been harmonized through the internationalization of the sport. Not isolated pockets of hockey during the 60’s-70’s-80’s.

 

[Phil Parent]

The most violent sport matchup ever was probably an Hungary vs. USSR water-polo game in the 56 Olympics, so I don't think they should have any lessons to give to anybody.

You could see blood in the water.

 

[Trottier]

It's not just brand of hockey. It's ethics. For Canadians it's normal to win at any cost using any methods. For Soviets it's not.

Phil Esposito said in Russian film about SummitSeries'72 (as I remember): "One thing will scare me till end of my days...please translate it right, okay? If it had helped us to win, I would have murdered some Soviet player."

Which is one reason to love Phil Esposito.

Thirty-five years and two generations later and the intimidation apparently still has the desired effect...on those easily intimidated.

Ethics? Bobby Clarke says "hi".

Not one player from those Canadian teams, nor any fan of them, need EVER apologize for the determination and style of play those great - and winning - teams deployed. EVER. Hockey can be played on figure skates, it can be played in a back alley...or a combination of both. If one doesn't like the style, not up to the challenge, get off the ice and go home. (As the Russians nearly did in Philly in '76.)

 

[Inner Gear]

So in other words they had to play NHL-style hockey.

For Soviets, it wasn't hockey game at all. And, judging by words of Serge Savard after 1979 Challenge Cup, he agreed.

What is the philosophy of hockey? It is: Speed, dexterity and finess, plus hits for manhood, plus fights as legal way to let off steam or to punish dirty players.

We can create game with much more relaxed rules. But, such game is not ice hockey, it's "hockey without rules", or "rugby on ice"...highly traumatic, simple and boring game. Imagine - what's the point for training your skating skill, if you can legally broke leg of someone who's skating better than you?

Look at NHL. Current rules is much more natural for Soviets than for old school Canadians. How many chances has Flyers'76 against CSKA'76 - under current NHL rules?

IMHO, history proved one thing: it's Soviets who played real ice hockey.

 

[Zine]

Which is one reason to love Phil Esposito.

Thirty-five years and two generations later and the intimidation apparently still has the desired effect...on those easily intimidated.

Ethics? Bobby Clarke says "hi".

Not one player from those Canadian teams, nor any fan of them, need EVER apologize for the determination and style of play those great - and winning - teams deployed. EVER. Hockey can be played on figure skates, it can be played in a back alley...or a combination of both. If one doesn't like the style, not up to the challenge, get off the ice and go home. (As the Russians nearly did in Philly in '76.)

Not up to the challenge?

Afterward, Gillies said, "Nothing seems to bother them. They don't show any pain when you hit them, and that gets frustrating."
http://www.russianhockey.us/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005773

"I don't know what it is about the Soviets that brings out the macho in NHL players, but the Challenge Cup saw a continuation of the Canadian players' ugly performances. The final game was a virtual pletphora of spears (Gerry Cheevers) to uncounted charges (on an obvious icing, Bill Barber stalked his man 60 feet and nailed him) to downright assaults (Lanny McDonald slugged an opponent already down). Of course, none of these incidents resulted in a penalty, which is also par for the course.
The Soviet players exhibited remarkable perseverance under less than optimum circucmstances. You could throw elbows at them, and fists, and swinging sticks, and wave after wave of malevolent bodies. But nothing deterred them from their goal".
-New York Times, Feb., 1979


Either way, Esposito/Clarke goon intimidation hockey has been phased out of the game. You know why? - it simply ceased to be effective. It was nothing more than side-show hockey that hurt the real game in the long run.


Following NHL's embarrassment at the hands of the Soviets in 1979, Harry Sinden had this to say:

One problem the NHL has - and can not continue to ignore - is that the league tolerates too many players whose skills are limited to the area of intimidation. As a result, the NHL has had too much of a monster image for about 10 years. You shouldn't have to be Attila the Hun to play game. The soviets certainly didn't play that way in New York.
It's time for us to take a hard stand and clean up our game. Premeditated hooliganism must be eradicated. We must weed out the brawlers and deal with them properly. We must be tougher on these people, and actually there aren't that many. In the last decade, some players have been unable to develop all their skills because they've intimidated. They don't want to drop their gloves and fight - and be embarrassed. We must put in some tough rules to end his.http://www.russianhockey.us/ubb/ulti...c;f=1;t=004995


Basically, the Soviets saved Canadian hockey from itself.

 

[OlderTimer*]

Any proof of that or are you just babbling?

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/figure/news?id=1337654

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/cross_country_skiing/news/2002/02/24/medals_stripped/

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/80854/russian_shot_putter_stripped_of_gold_medal/

http://www.geocities.com/jaredperi/olympics/beckie/scott.htm

etc etc the list goes on and on.........ethics...make me laugh

like i said...more dope in the Soviet athletes than all of Colombia

 

[Inner Gear]

Eh?
There are no single Soviet athlete among them.
Epic fail

And, don't forget do describe logic relation between hockey players and one athlete.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

For Soviets, it wasn't hockey game at all. And, judging by words of Serge Savard after 1979 Challenge Cup, he agreed.

Serge Savard doesn't represent hockey, though you certainly have no problem representing him as such. In fact, when it comes to violence's role in the game, he's very much in the minority.

What is the philosophy of hockey? It is: Speed, dexterity and finess, plus hits for manhood, plus fights as legal way to let off steam or to punish dirty players.

Whoa, fighting? Better talk to Serge about that one.

 

[OlderTimer*]

Eh?
There are no single Soviet athlete among them.
Epic fail

And, don't forget do describe logic relation between hockey players and one athlete.

your trying to get technical....Russia...former Soviet union ...same thing!!!!

BTW...isn't that a Russian flag your waving?....defend the Soviets but its mostly the Russians that are cheating....

 

[MXD]

Nice to see this, coming from the big Serge. He was as good as anybody as a fighter (actually, much better than many guys who were in the league for the sole reason they were fighters). Hockey is definitely a physical sport and it should remain that way (I had to stop playing hockey because of this...), but thuggery isn't hockey either.